THE MAN CHRIST JESUS

[keypurr]

Well they did find such a man--

Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

LA

Good post

 

[freelight]

Clarifying your Christology......

Clarifying your Christology......

The Questions -

1. Do you believe that the Jesus conceived was a created human person - human center of consciousness - just like you and I??

If we take Jesus in the context of his humanity, then of course, Jesus the MAN is a created human person. However, we are assuming such within the language and context of both 'scripture' and 'tradition'. The genuineness of his humanity is essential, a 'must' regarding the significance of the 'Incarnation'.

2. Do you believe this Jesus that was conceived could fully independently function independent of any incarnated deity just like you and I?

Ok,...this second question is really 'pivotal' since its here where the centuries old question of whether Jesus has any divine nature comes to the fore, hence the various views of 'Christology', his pre-existence, logos-connection, Trinity-assumption, etc. It appears early Christianity of the first few centuries held diverse views on Jesus, from being an anointed human agent (Messiah-type figure), to being 'God the Son' (part of an eternal Trinity) who took on flesh, and some views inbetween these. Centuries of church council debates hashed out which 'formula' was to be 'orthodox', and which was to be deemed 'heresy'. These debates continue today......

I had two previous threads related to the subject here (they are not longer extant) -

1) Unitarian Christianity

2) Historical Arian Christianity

I'm still open and exploring in my own Christology, so have nuances integrating different school-traditions and philosophical perspectives. While we accept the full/genuine humanity of Jesus, we have the assumption of his 'divinity' from scripture and tradition, and how this later got codified in various creeds becoming 'dogma' for some groups. Of course Orthodox Christianity settled the mystery or paradox of Jesus human and divine natures by ASSUMING that he is BOTH 'human' and 'divine', then making him completely 'God' (100% Deity) and completely 'Man' (100 % human)...a "wonderful confusion to say the least".

To your #2.....I'm re-evaluating because its a 'loaded' question which can be taken from many different angles.

Could you for the readers answer definitively and liberally your own 2 questions so we understand better your 'Christological' view?

Thanks

 

[RevTestament]

Jesus specifically tells us that He is "a man who has told us the truth that He heard from God" (Jn8:40).

While I hear many people talk about Jesus as being "fully man" or "fully human", they rarely speak the way Jesus and Paul spoke - and simply say, Jesus is a man.

To understand the man Christ Jesus (1Tim2:5), I have recently provided the following two questions. To date, no one has been able to answer what should be very simple questions to confirm that Jesus is a man "made in all points like His brethren"(Heb2:17).

The Questions -
1. Do you believe that the Jesus conceived was a created human person - human center of consciousness - just like you and I??

Yes, in the sense that He has his own consciousness, but no in the sense that He is not just like you and I. I believe, He remembered through through the veil of the temple to his life before He was begotten as the Son. The rest of us of course do not remember anything before this creation, although some may "feel" it. He was also the only one ever born on this earth with eternal life.

2. Do you believe this Jesus that was conceived could fully independently function independent of any incarnated deity just like you and I?

Yes. But, he wouldn't have been able to do the miracles, etc without His connection to the Father.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Yes, in the sense that He has his own consciousness, but no in the sense that He is not just like you and I. I believe, He remembered through through the veil of the temple to his life before He was begotten as the Son. The rest of us of course do not remember anything before this creation, although some may "feel" it. He was also the only one ever born on this earth with eternal life.

No.

Spiritualism is wrong.

LA

 

[Totton Linnet]

When Messiah was formed in me it was by the Holy Spirit, (and the Seed is the Word).

You were born again when Christ imparted His own divine nature in you....the reason keypurr etc do not know Christ is God is because they do not have His divine nature in them.

 

[aikido7]

Aikido - Is there any way to reduce your response to answering the questions in the OP?

You'll have to explain your question in a different way. I have no idea what OP means and I don't have a clue what is prompting your question.

Sorry. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

[Bright Raven]

BR - Let's do them one at time then.

My first question -
The Questions -
Do you believe that the Jesus conceived was a created human person - human center of consciousness - just like you and I??

I believe you believe that Jesus is fully human - yes? Why would you say He is not "fully human" here?

What is most fundamental to being a man is being a human person - that is the fundamental framework of who each of us is. Here you deny that in this regard Jesus was like us. How does that square with the repeated statements that Jesus is a man exactly like us including His own assertion? You have me completely baffled....

I believe that He is fully man and fully God in that He was born of the Virgin and the Holy Spirit.

 

[daqq]

You were born again when Christ imparted His own divine nature in you....the reason keypurr etc do not know Christ is God is because they do not have His divine nature in them.

No one decides the day wherein he or she is born from above. One does not pray a majick prayer and receive divine nature. Messiah imparted the divine nature, (mind of Messiah) through his Testimony, which was given him from above without measure, which he paid for with his own blood. If one has the mind of Messiah it is because it is written, and because that person has consumed all of it, (leaving nothing till the morning come) and not because he or she has prayed a formulaic majickal prayer at the podium-altars of man.

 

[Aner]

I believe that He is fully man and fully God in that He was born of the Virgin and the Holy Spirit.

Is there any way to directly answer the very simple questions in the OP?

If He is fully man - shouldn't you be able to easily YES to each one?

 

[keypurr]

I believe that He is fully man and fully God in that He was born of the Virgin and the Holy Spirit.

That only proves that God fathered him.

Your assuming that means he is God, bad assumption friend.
It only say that he is the flesh son of God.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You were born again when Christ imparted His own divine nature in you....the reason keypurr etc do not know Christ is God is because they do not have His divine nature in them.

The divine nature is imparted by faith.

You think He lives in you like a God in a little box which you let out as you will.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Well they did find such a man--

Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

LA

Poster Saul to Paul calls this post ignorant.

That figures.

LA

 

[Sherman]

We are getting too many of these threads proliferating on TOL. I am going the close them down except one each for each user. If I still see too many of them, they will still be pruned down to one.