The LORD is not willing that any should perish
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Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
I'm not someone who believes that God fails. The idea of Him failing is frankly preposterous. The notion that He could or that He might fail at whatever it is that He sets out to do is ridiculous. This is what Noncalvinists do not understand about Calvinists and Calvinism. It isn't just that Calvinism resists what is seen as stealing credit from God, in taking even a small bit of credit for our own saving faith in Christ, it is that for Calvinists, it is preposterous and ridiculous on its face, to believe or to accept that what's happening in the world is in any way beyond God's control.
The trouble with Calvinism is that this makes the Holocaust basically God's fault, and other atrocities, rather than being free as are Noncalvinists to deal with such malice and evil as it is, without any need to tackle our theological understanding of the world and of God in the process.
In fact it is the moral problem that ultimately condemns Calvinism, because of the following propositions. If a man is elect, then there is nothing that he can do to not be saved. And if a man is not elect (reprobate) then there is nothing that he can do to be saved. Whereas very many Noncalvinists revolt at this latter idea, that someone cannot do anything to be saved (if they are not elect), the true trouble here is the moral trouble, because the bottom line, in the final analysis, of both of the propositions above combined, is that nothing that we do can alter our eternal fate. And so we have no reason to be moral or to avoid immorality, and this includes even atrocious (as in atrocity) behavior and choices, if Calvinism is true.
It literally doesn't matter, according to Calvinism, and this is why the theory is wrong and must be wrong, because it's simply impossible that this is how God is, or how He made or administrates the world.
beloved57
Well-known member
God not willing that none should perish, but that they all come to repentance, as the word denotes , is His predestination, resolution, and engaged will, which none can frustrate [Rom 9:19 For who hath resisted his will?]
That word will in Rom 9:19 is the same word for will in 2 Pet 3:9, and this will is never successfully resisted or frustrated , but always brings about the will and purpose of God !
That word will in Rom 9:19 is the same word for will in 2 Pet 3:9, and this will is never successfully resisted or frustrated , but always brings about the will and purpose of God !
beloved57
Well-known member
Also we should know by biblical data that God is much willing that many do perish, they whom He has ordained to condemnation/damnation as per Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
And those He made as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction Rom 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
The word destruction here actually means to perish , the very same word God is not willing to happen to them in 2 Pet 3:9 !
Now whose foolish enough to declare that there are contrary purposes in the Mind of God ?
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
And those He made as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction Rom 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
The word destruction here actually means to perish , the very same word God is not willing to happen to them in 2 Pet 3:9 !
Now whose foolish enough to declare that there are contrary purposes in the Mind of God ?
The Bible says God is not willing that any should perish. Calvinists say God is not willing to extend any hope or opportunity whatsoever to any but a privileged few He chooses for reasons secret to Himself to get saved.
God has ordained from the beginning to condemn all sinners who reject His offer to them of salvation through the shed blood of Jesus freely offered as a ransom to all for the remission of their sins.
I've challenged you to come clean, B57.
Are you going to continue to ignore me?
beloved57
Well-known member
Post 64 do you understand it ?
beloved57
Well-known member
God created/made men to be condemned to wrath and destruction, this was before they existed ! Rom 9
Right Divider
Body part
How do you know that you're not one of them?
Wrong. We know God created hell for the devil and his angels, not for humans, according to the Bible.
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
It is only according to men that we find the idea that God created hell for humans He supposedly never intended to call to repentance. That is another misinterpretation of the Bible being perpetrated by poor students of the Bible. God has not just commanded the elect to repent of sins and come to Jesus for forgiveness, He has commanded all sinners to repent and come to Jesus for forgiveness.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
beloved57
Well-known member
You not listening. Some God created to be destroyed before they has being !
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
I would just remind you of Matthew 18:17 where Christ teaches us, "...if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."
So the question is, how do we do that? Who is it who neglects to hear the Church? Who is the Church, and what does she say, such that if you "neglect to hear" her say it, that the rest of us ought to consider you "as an heathen man and a publican"?
For me the answer is to treat you with respect and dignity, particularly that I honor your God-given rights, among which is your right to neglect to hear the Church. If we are to love our enemies, and if you neglect to hear the Church, we are to consider you "as an heathen man and a publican", then loving our enemies and considering a man who neglects to hear the Church "as an heathen man and a publican" must not conflict, and I believe, must be the same thing, just said in a different way.
Lon
Well-known member
This is a human thought not scripture. I get why you think this, but perhaps an example:
Lon 'wills' that Beloved not post this about God. Lon's will is not thwarted, but Beloved posts anyway. It isn't that God is slow, as some count slowness. IOW, it may 'seem' thwarted to others such as Malachi 3:15
It is scripture. Deal with scripture and ensure whatever theology you espouse, accounts and does honor to all of Him.
Lon
Well-known member
Agree, love doesn't mean no discipline. 1 Corinthians to 2 Corinthians is a good example: In the first, a man is disfellowshipped for an inappropriate relationship. In 2 Corinthians Paul urges them, that the discipline worked and to bring him back to the fold. All loving actions, certainly with portions uncomfortable, but all with care and concern.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
I agree with your scriptural example, that this was a playing out of Matthew 18:17
Thumb.
==PS
Also, your example definitely shows that the Apostles were concerned with the behavior of Christians, according to Paul here explicitly, how we behave should influence how we are treated by other Christians, and this gets at what I was saying in a lengthy post above, about how if the propositions of Calvinism are taken to be true, then logic demands the conclusion that it ultimately does not matter at all what we do or what we don't do, in the eternal perspective, which of course overrides every other perspective, no matter how much we might want to say that it's very important that nobody murders or rapes or bears false witness against anybody in a court of law.
And this means that Calvinism conflicts fatally with Scripture, since it is abundantly obvious in the Scripture that all of the Apostles and Christ Himself were very concerned with our behavior. To be a convinced Calvinist is to fundamentally disagree with them, and to instead hold the view that our behavior in the final, eternal analysis does not matter, which suggests that it is at least a reasonable view, to not worry about our behavior at all, and to permit if not outright approve of all sorts of things, even evil things. Since, whether we are elect or not is the sole governing factor in our eternal destiny, and not whether we avoid murder and rape and bearing false witness in a court of law.
Ultimately Calvinism's ethics is empty, it's equal in most every way to nihilism and absolute moral relativism, which we all know even without much thought are both completely wrong. We believe in human rights, we believe that they were given to us by God, and that to injure any of them in others would be a true crime, deserving of serious penalty. Like the rights against being murdered, being raped, and being falsely testified against in a court of law. We cannot and do not accept that evildoers enter the Kingdom of God when they perish, we know that they don't, we know that what they do matters, and it doesn't save Calvinism to state something like, If a man is reprobate (i.e. not elect), and he commits atrocious evil, it isn't the evil he does that forfeits his eternal salvation, but that he wasn't elect.
To protest that Calvinism doesn't support this conclusion, which is certainly true of Calvinists, generally, misses the point that it is the two propositions of Calvinism that I'm condemning here, that all Calvinists believe are true: If a man is elect, there is nothing he can do to fail to be saved, and if a man is not elect, there is nothing he can do to be saved. It must be the case, if these two ideas are true, that what we do, does not matter in the longest of long views. And this simply contradicts the evidence of Scripture, where it is clearly shown that the Apostles, Christ, and the Church all believe that it very much does matter what we do.
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Get your head out the sand, B57.
And stop being a liar.
Lon
Well-known member
That isn't how most Calvinists argue, the last point of TULIP is Perseverance, meaning they are a new creation that will not do as you suggest. We have to be careful, because I could say this to anyone who quotes Romans 8:1,2 There is therefore, now no condemnation, for those who are in Christ Jesus, for the Power of the Spirit has set you free from the Law of sin and death.
Most Calvinists I know quote Ephesians 2:10 "we are HIS workmanship...." It means God is doing it, not that we get away with anything. Hebrews 12 says God disciplines those He loves. So, it isn't so much about behavior, as it is about 'relationship.' While I agree we SHOULD behave, the reasons aren't the same. I won't lose salvation for being a punk. I may not 'be' a Christian as a punk, still in the flesh, but only God (and I) know if I am a new creation. It is best, not just with Calvinists, but all Christians, not to confuse the two. We also have to be careful not to just address any one group though certainly we are dealing with double-pred Calvinists in thread.
1) I don't believe any Christian, let alone a Calvinist (doesn't have to be the scapegoat here),is going to 'want' to do anything but the will of Christ. We, in Christ, want to follow Him.
2) I agree with Calvinist and Mid Acts: Behavior isn't the mark. "In Christ" is the mark. If a man/woman murder, they will pay for it here. If not a believer, then eternity as well.
3) Your argument, after a fashion, would condemn the thief on the cross. He needed grace. Ephesians 2:8,9 says "By grace you are saved though faith....not by works (obedience included).
I don't know many immoral Calvinists or MAD. Anyone that is a new creature in Christ desires Him, desires to please Him, desires and values what He does.
:*( The thief on the cross never made it then. Jesus didn't come for the sick, then. Just for those who 'needed a "little" help.'
Romans 10:9,10,13
It depends. David murdered Uriah. God called him a 'man after His Own heart.' How? Faith. It is the only answer I know.
God is in the business of Salvation and He knows how to save those who are perishing 'to the uttermost.' Hebrews 7:25 (Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews, all great theology primer books though I believe most need help with Hebrews).
True, since it depends on the Savior. As Romans 9 says "Who can resist His will?" Perhaps (perhaps) Saul could have been defiant and went around blind the rest of his pharisaical life. Perhaps he couldn't really resist God's will. I'm not too caught up on the argument on either side. I try and remember I have nothing I have not been given nor to boast as if I weren't given it. It leaves all glory to God and seldom does it make me want accuse God of anything. It makes me kind'a'humble.
If you ask them, they don't want to be saved thus. Go ask any man if they want to be saved that isn't saved. If they do, you've led one to Christ. If not, then they are making a choice. CAN God save them? Maybe with a lobotomy. At this point in my life, if I ever would even think about denying Him, I'd pray for that lobotomy. Better to enter heaven with one arm as it were.
In a sense, you are right. It matters what He did.
In the sense that a new creation will do newly created works (Ephesians 2:10 2 Corinthians 5:17). Then of course it matters what we do.
1 Corinthians 3:13 talks about things that don't matter that will burn up. I'm not sure a Christian, loving Jesus, can but love Him and His church in return. "We love, because He first loved us." This doesn't mean perfection. I realize Catholics are very much caught up in this idea of perfection/glorification toward "sainthood." It isn't that you 'become' a saint. It is that you 'are a saint, so live as one in Christ.' Every day I pray to bless someone and make a difference, to point them toward eternal things. I do so because for me, it is ALL that matters. The rest is all dross. I want someone to have a greater picture of Jesus today because I was on the planet. It is my prayer daily. I sometimes 'feel' I fail but God is in control of His people and His desired outcome and 'works all things to good.' Romans 8:28 (love Romans 8).
beloved57
Well-known member
How can anyone God is not willing should perish perish ? How can anyone not come to repentance when its Almighty Gods Will that they do come to repentance ? Does not scripture tell us this about the True God ?Isa 46:9-10
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure[desire]:
Ps 115:3
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased[desired].
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure[desire]:
Ps 115:3
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased[desired].