The Late Great Urantia Revelation

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freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
God is Spirit........

God is Spirit........

The Bible was written by men and contains many factual errors. The pride of Bible worshipers leads them to be self deceived. Making the Bible Gods written word is idolatrous.


Caino


Any written words can be falsely idolized or heralded as absolute truth, when such is only a vehicle to relate truths, a 'medium'. Infinite reality always grants the potential for progressive revelation in time. The UB also claims to not have the finality of truth, and since it used the highest concepts of human knowledge at the time of its transmission it admits some things will need revision, with additional truths unfolding in all areas of knowledge, however....the meanings and values of religious experience and God-communion are consistent, no matter their racial over-lay or cultural expression....since 'God' is universal reality.


pj
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
When you plagiarize someone else's research without giving credit to the original author, I tend to ignore your slothful response with one of my own.

http://prince.org/msg/105/186125?&pg=11

I also do sarcasm rather well, it's just one more way I try to please those who like jokes.

In other words, you have no answer, you avoid the obvious and embarrassing statements in the so called "word of God". I didn't claim to write that, besides, there are many such list readily available on the web for any serious person to view. There are many more inconsistencies in the Bible because it was edited and redacted by church authorities over the centuries.

You have no answers because the Bible is your idol. You can't admit error.


Caino
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
Any written words can be falsely idolized or heralded as absolute truth, when such is only a vehicle to relate truths, a 'medium'. Infinite reality always grants the potential for progressive revelation in time. The UB also claims to not have the finality of truth, and since it used the highest concepts of human knowledge at the time of its transmission it admits some things will need revision, with additional truths unfolding in all areas of knowledge, however....the meanings and values of religious experience and God-communion are consistent, no matter their racial over-lay or cultural expression....since 'God' is universal reality.


pj

Yes, I agree.


C
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
In other words, you have no answer, you avoid the obvious and embarrassing statements in the so called "word of God".
I did answer it... by stating that you did a quick copy/paste from the link I provided and then put way more effort into my reply than you did posting the nonsense in the first place. I could answer all of them, but you could find the perfectly understandable explanations even far easier than you found the list of 'mistakes' in The Bible in the first place, but obviously you don't want to be that honest, do you?
I didn't claim to write that...
Actually, when you posted it onto TOL without acknowledging the author, you did.
...besides, there are many such list readily available on the web for any serious person to view.
And probably ten times as many perfectly plausible explanations for every single 'error' listed. :duh:
There are many more inconsistencies in the Bible because it was edited and redacted by church authorities over the centuries.
Actually, the Dead Sea Scrolls proved beyond doubt that our current Bible is QUITE accurate. There's never been any edits or re-writes.
You have no answers because the Bible is your idol. You can't admit error.
The Bible is God's Word. You are the one in error, taking doctrines of demons and calling it: Scripture.
 

bucksplasher

New member
I

I

Such are a paraphrase (explanatory discourse),....and their truth or authority lies in their own dictation (in more modern day venacular).

Do you find anything in it that would seem unbefitting of Jesus or adversarial to true religious experience?


pj

find it a human reinterpretation using "modern" (at the time) psychology.

I'm sure modern extraterrestrials could do a better job of explaining Christ's teaching.

tWINs

PS I continue to appreciate the use of the word "heckler" in the text. It is my favorite "word" found in holy writings.
 

Stuu

New member
I'm sure modern extraterrestrials could do a better job of explaining Christ's teaching.
These particular extraterrestrials have two things against them:

1. They were invented by a crackpot
2. Being as such, they don't actually exist

That doesn't stop the gullible believing in Science Adjustors and Operating Thetans and Morons from Morontia.

Stuart
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
What was the real story behind the demons and the swine? People with half a pulse have often asked why a demon inside a pig would drown in the ocean?


THE KHERESA LUNATIC​

151:6.1 Although most of the near-by eastern shore of the lake sloped up gently to the highlands beyond, at this particular spot there was a steep hillside, the shore in some places dropping sheer down into the lake. Pointing up to the side of the near-by hill, Jesus said: "Let us go up on this hillside for our breakfast and under some of the shelters rest and talk."
151:6.2 This entire hillside was covered with caverns which had been hewn out of the rock. Many of these niches were ancient sepulchres. About halfway up the hillside on a small, relatively level spot was the cemetery of the little village of Kheresa. As Jesus and his associates passed near this burial ground, a lunatic who lived in these hillside caverns rushed up to them. This demented man was well known about these parts, having onetime been bound with fetters and chains and confined in one of the grottoes. Long since he had broken his shackles and now roamed at will among the tombs and abandoned sepulchres.

151:6.3 This man, whose name was Amos, was afflicted with a periodic form of insanity. There were considerable spells when he would find some clothing and deport himself fairly well among his fellows. During one of these lucid intervals he had gone over to Bethsaida, where he heard the preaching of Jesus and the apostles, and at that time had become a halfhearted believer in the gospel of the kingdom. But soon a stormy phase of his trouble appeared, and he fled to the tombs, where he moaned, cried out aloud, and so conducted himself as to terrorize all who chanced to meet him.

151:6.4 When Amos recognized Jesus, he fell down at his feet and exclaimed: "I know you, Jesus, but I am possessed of many devils, and I beseech that you will not torment me." This man truly believed that his periodic mental affliction was due to the fact that, at such times, evil or unclean spirits entered into him and dominated his mind and body. His troubles were mostly emotional—his brain was not grossly diseased.

151:6.5 Jesus, looking down upon the man crouching like an animal at his feet, reached down and, taking him by the hand, stood him up and said to him: "Amos, you are not possessed of a devil; you have already heard the good news that you are a son of God. I command you to come out of this spell." And when Amos heard Jesus speak these words, there occurred such a transformation in his intellect that he was immediately restored to his right mind and the normal control of his emotions. By this time a considerable crowd had assembled from the near-by village, and these people, augmented by the swine herders from the highland above them, were astonished to see the lunatic sitting with Jesus and his followers, in possession of his right mind and freely conversing with them.

151:6.6 As the swine herders rushed into the village to spread the news of the taming of the lunatic, the dogs charged upon a small and untended herd of about thirty swine and drove most of them over a precipice into the sea. And it was this incidental occurrence, in connection with the presence of Jesus and the supposed miraculous curing of the lunatic, that gave origin to the legend that Jesus had cured Amos by casting a legion of devils out of him, and that these devils had entered into the herd of swine, causing them forthwith to rush headlong to their destruction in the sea below. Before the day was over, this episode was published abroad by the swine tenders, and the whole village believed it. Amos most certainly believed this story; he saw the swine tumbling over the brow of the hill shortly after his troubled mind had quieted down, and he always believed that they carried with them the very evil spirits which had so long tormented and afflicted him. And this had a good deal to do with the permanency of his cure. It is equally true that all of Jesus' apostles (save Thomas) believed that the episode of the swine was directly connected with the cure of Amos.

151:6.7 Jesus did not obtain the rest he was looking for. Most of that day he was thronged by those who came in response to the word that Amos had been cured, and who were attracted by the story that the demons had gone out of the lunatic into the herd of swine. And so, after only one night of rest, early Tuesday morning Jesus and his friends were awakened by a delegation of these swine-raising gentiles who had come to urge that he depart from their midst. Said their spokesman to Peter and Andrew: "Fishermen of Galilee, depart from us and take your prophet with you. We know he is a holy man, but the gods of our country do not know him, and we stand in danger of losing many swine. The fear of you has descended upon us, so that we pray you to go hence." And when Jesus heard them, he said to Andrew, "Let us return to our place."

151:6.8 As they were about to depart, Amos besought Jesus to permit him to go back with them, but the Master would not consent. Said Jesus to Amos: "Forget not that you are a son of God. Return to your own people and show them what great things God has done for you." And Amos went about publishing that Jesus had cast a legion of devils out of his troubled soul, and that these evil spirits had entered into a herd of swine, driving them to quick destruction. And he did not stop until he had gone into all the cities of the Decapolis, declaring what great things Jesus had done for him." UB



Caino
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
consider the content and meaning of the message....

consider the content and meaning of the message....

find it a human reinterpretation using "modern" (at the time) psychology.

Of course it is a discourse using human terms and understanding, expanding on basic principles and values of 'religious experience'. It provides much more than what the synoptics share. So you didnt find it insightful or informative? What else are the accounts in the gospels,...but second hand recounts of what Jesus is presumed to have said? The discourses of Jesus in the Papers expound and contextualize his teaching from the perspective of the authors point of view. The discourses elaborate the principle and function of 'religion' in man's experience.

The 2 discourses on Religion by Jesus are on this page.

I'm sure modern extraterrestrials could do a better job of explaining Christ's teaching.

And how so? Looks like the minds at work bringing forth these discourses, presented as the primary meanings and values Jesus meant to convey (within the culture and theology of Jesus time, but explained in more modern venacular), have done a pretty satisfactory job. If they havent, can you point out where they fail to deliver?


PS I continue to appreciate the use of the word "heckler" in the text. It is my favorite "word" found in holy writings.

I wasnt aware of the word 'heckler' was in the text concerned. The word 'heckled' is used at least once in the Papers, but what is the problem with the word? Human concepts, words, ideas are used in the Papers in order to communicate. You appear to be bypassing the essential meaning and import of the messages for nitpicking about a 'word' used with a pejorative tone. What the intent subtle humor or mockery, or perhaps a blend? I dont really see the need for that. Why cant one simply set preconceived presumptions aside and read a discourse within the context that it was meant to be related? Then perhaps you can 'appreciate' what is being shared. Granted,..as one reads the Papers...a better comprehension for terms and philosophical context is provided. - the meanings and values conveyed are germane to religious experience, so are universal. These to me would seem pretty important to a religionist :think:


pj
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
reflections...........

reflections...........

In other words, you have no answer, you avoid the obvious and embarrassing statements in the so called "word of God". I didn't claim to write that, besides, there are many such list readily available on the web for any serious person to view. There are many more inconsistencies in the Bible because it was edited and redacted by church authorities over the centuries.

To believe the Bible is the only source of revealed scripture or 'truth' in the world is quite a stretch. Assumption. Truth is universal,...Reality is what IS. - which can be interpreted, explained or translated in various ways, slap on as many conceptual frames as you like. Reality is in the essential re-cognition of true Life as it exists, as it is actually Being. NOW. (no time reference or conditioning needed).

You have no answers because the Bible is your idol. You can't admit error.

Actually any 'image', 'idea', 'concept' or 'dogma' of 'God' can become an 'idol', while only the Spirit-Presence and Conscious-Being of 'God' is real. I can only 'know' this Presence as the Only One that Now is.... Because God is Life. There is only this stainless purity of pure radiant Perfection behind all images of the mind, as the 'I Am Presence' (Pure Light). - in UB terms, this would be the 'Thought-Adjuster' or 'Father-fragment' within the mind of man....an actual fragment of infinity!

God Is. But such is just another word for 'Life' as it is Be-ing and Be-coming. - the totality of reality is both Creative Intelligence and Creation.....reflecting one another. Consciousness is All There Is.


pj
 

bucksplasher

New member
I

I

Of course it is a discourse using human terms and understanding, expanding on basic principles and values of 'religious experience'. It provides much more than what the synoptics share. So you didn't find it insightful or informative? What else are the accounts in the gospels,...but second hand recounts of what Jesus is presumed to have said? The discourses of Jesus in the Papers expound and contextualize his teaching from the perspective of the authors point of view. The discourses elaborate the principle and function of 'religion' in man's experience.

The 2 discourses on Religion by Jesus are on this page.



And how so? Looks like the minds at work bringing forth these discourses, presented as the primary meanings and values Jesus meant to convey (within the culture and theology of Jesus time, but explained in more modern venacular), have done a pretty satisfactory job. If they havent, can you point out where they fail to deliver?




I wasnt aware of the word 'heckler' was in the text concerned. The word 'heckled' is used at least once in the Papers, but what is the problem with the word? Human concepts, words, ideas are used in the Papers in order to communicate. You appear to be bypassing the essential meaning and import of the messages for nitpicking about a 'word' used with a pejorative tone. What the intent subtle humor or mockery, or perhaps a blend? I dont really see the need for that. Why cant one simply set preconceived presumptions aside and read a discourse within the context that it was meant to be related? Then perhaps you can 'appreciate' what is being shared. Granted,..as one reads the Papers...a better comprehension for terms and philosophical context is provided. - the meanings and values conveyed are germane to religious experience, so are universal. These to me would seem pretty important to a religionist :think:


pj

went and read the "papers" account of the "last supper".

If I were to believe that this "discourse" was correct than I would have no recourse but to stop being a Catholic as the Eucharist is shown to be only a remembrance.

In John's "discourse" we have a preponderance of evidence that it is more easily understood to be interpreted in the Catholic tradition.

I of course choose to believe John rather than the more modern rendition.

That is just "one" example that I used as a test of the "papers" veracity but it is more than enough for me. If it makes this bad a mistake on the "essential" difference between Catholics and Protestants than the whole work is flawed.

tWINs
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
moving beyond ritual to spiritual meaning.....

moving beyond ritual to spiritual meaning.....

went and read the "papers" account of the "last supper".

If I were to believe that this "discourse" was correct than I would have no recourse but to stop being a Catholic as the Eucharist is shown to be only a remembrance.

In John's "discourse" we have a preponderance of evidence that it is more easily understood to be interpreted in the Catholic tradition.

I of course choose to believe John rather than the more modern rendition.

That is just "one" example that I used as a test of the "papers" veracity but it is more than enough for me. If it makes this bad a mistake on the "essential" difference between Catholics and Protestants than the whole work is flawed.

tWINs


Suit yourself. I find such a minor descrepancy somewhat petty, unless of course one invests so much in a 'catholic' view and metaphysical description of the Eucharist, yet such a minor point doesn't discount or disqualify the entirety of Jesus teachings in the UB (at all), neither ought to discount the entire cosmological revelation of 'God'(nature, attributes, character, etc.), the universe, the angelic orders, and fine details of man's spiritual journey being of an evolutionary nature. Concerning the nature of God, its teachings of justice/mercy, ethics, eternal meanings/values....the UB excels and champions only the most noble ideals and true religious principles.

Looks like you were reading parts of it first to see if it "fits" or 'confirms' particulars of your own religious dogmas....but are choosing to dismiss the entire volume for a few contingencies. If interested further in the substance of the Papers,...I recommend the first 10 - 12 Papers, on the nature, character, attributes of 'God', - Paper 10 is on the Paradise Trinity, so confirms this fundamental view of the supreme Godhead, within the greater cosmic comprehension of the authors point of view. There is so much in the UB, that even I often skip over some parts and find other parts more interesting or pertinent, so one can still glean and find parts that are useful, concerning the greater universe-picture. The Infinite has no beginning and no end,...which makes the unfolding and expansion of the finite dimensions within it all the more wondrous.


UB Fellowship


Be well!


pj
 

bucksplasher

New member
But

But

You knew it was coming.

If a "minor" point of being able to fulfill the "now perfected" Paschal sacrifice and consume your God and Savior and have Him "consume" you, on a daily basis if desired, then I can't see what you might consider "major".

Christ on the cross, after having the three cups at the last supper, takes the "fourth" cup of sour wine and declares..."It is finished".


The new and final banquet is established until the heavenly one we'll all "GATHER" round.

tWINs
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
You knew it was coming.

If a "minor" point of being able to fulfill the "now perfected" Paschal sacrifice and consume your God and Savior and have Him "consume" you, on a daily basis if desired, then I can't see what you might consider "major".

Christ on the cross, after having the three cups at the last supper, takes the "fourth" cup of sour wine and declares..."It is finished".


The new and final banquet is established until the heavenly one we'll all "GATHER" round.

tWINs

Bucksplasher,

Ritual becomes a substitute for the genuine desire to be lead by the spirit. The Eucharist was not to become a substitute for the gospel.

The church became a substitute for the "kingdom of heaven", the simple spiritual fellowship established by Christ.


"In instituting this remembrance supper, the Master, as was always his habit, resorted to parables and symbols. He employed symbols because he wanted to teach certain great spiritual truths in such a manner as to make it difficult for his successors to attach precise interpretations and definite meanings to his words. In this way he sought to prevent successive generations from crystallizing his teaching and binding down his spiritual meanings by the dead chains of tradition and dogma. In the establishment of the only ceremony or sacrament associated with his whole life mission, Jesus took great pains to suggest his meanings rather than to commit himself to precise definitions. He did not wish to destroy the individual's concept of divine communion by establishing a precise form; neither did he desire to limit the believer's spiritual imagination by formally cramping it. He rather sought to set man's reborn soul free upon the joyous wings of a new and living spiritual liberty.

Notwithstanding the Master's effort thus to establish this new sacrament of the remembrance, those who followed after him in the intervening centuries saw to it that his express desire was effectively thwarted in that his simple spiritual symbolism of that last night in the flesh has been reduced to precise interpretations and subjected to the almost mathematical precision of a set formula. Of all Jesus' teachings none have become more tradition-standardized."


Caino
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Bucksplasher,

Ritual becomes a substitute for the genuine desire to be lead by the spirit. The Eucharist was not to become a substitute for the gospel.

The church became a substitute for the "kingdom of heaven", the simple spiritual fellowship established by Christ.


"In instituting this remembrance supper, the Master, as was always his habit, resorted to parables and symbols. He employed symbols because he wanted to teach certain great spiritual truths in such a manner as to make it difficult for his successors to attach precise interpretations and definite meanings to his words. In this way he sought to prevent successive generations from crystallizing his teaching and binding down his spiritual meanings by the dead chains of tradition and dogma. In the establishment of the only ceremony or sacrament associated with his whole life mission, Jesus took great pains to suggest his meanings rather than to commit himself to precise definitions. He did not wish to destroy the individual's concept of divine communion by establishing a precise form; neither did he desire to limit the believer's spiritual imagination by formally cramping it. He rather sought to set man's reborn soul free upon the joyous wings of a new and living spiritual liberty.

Notwithstanding the Master's effort thus to establish this new sacrament of the remembrance, those who followed after him in the intervening centuries saw to it that his express desire was effectively thwarted in that his simple spiritual symbolism of that last night in the flesh has been reduced to precise interpretations and subjected to the almost mathematical precision of a set formula. Of all Jesus' teachings none have become more tradition-standardized."


Caino


:thumb:

We've covered the Eucharist on other threads. Old hat. While catholics magnify the import of such a ritual thru 'transubstantiation', such interpretation was later imposed thru platonic metaphysics and the attempt to spiritualize such in a way that it became the main ritual and 'communion-medium' of the church. It serves only as a medium to lift one into actual communion with Spirit, and if it serves such, thats fine,...which is its original intent. However as Jesus in the UB shares,...religious dogma and ritual can stifle the true purpose and spiritual liberty of a rite. It depends on how one uses such and comprehends its purpose. Christians all around the world, enjoy communion with God outside of the RCC's eucharistic service thru the ritual of the Lord's Supper...without its dogma attached. The key is it being a 'ritual of remembrance', a spiritual sharing and communion of the kingdom of God both immanent and transcendent.


pj
 

bucksplasher

New member
There

There

were many who walked away from such a teaching, but for those who stay and continue to follow the command to take and eat, I believe we've chosen the better part. tWINs
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
were many who walked away from such a teaching, but for those who stay and continue to follow the command to take and eat, I believe we've chosen the better part. tWINs

It's not "all or nothing". It's only natural that an institution would settle on a proper ritual in order to distinguish itself from all other institutions as being the only "right way" in order to attract and maintain membership.

Christians today don't fully appreciate how difficult it was for Jews to leave the deeply established tradition, the fraternity, culture, connections, neighbors, friends and family of Judaism, all to follow the strange and liberating Gospel of a carpenter from Nazareth.

But why is it man's persistent habit to form ritual, doctrine and authority around what was originally free thinking spirituality?

"Primitive man lived a life of superstitious bondage to religious fear. Modern, civilized men dread the thought of falling under the dominance of strong religious convictions. Thinking man has always feared to be held by a religion. When a strong and moving religion threatens to dominate him, he invariably tries to rationalize, traditionalize, and institutionalize it, thereby hoping to gain control of it. By such procedure, even a revealed religion becomes man-made and man-dominated. Modern men and women of intelligence evade the religion of Jesus because of their fears of what it will do to them — and with them. And all such fears are well founded. The religion of Jesus does, indeed, dominate and transform its believers, demanding that men dedicate their lives to seeking for a knowledge of the will of the Father in heaven and requiring that the energies of living be consecrated to the unselfish service of the brotherhood of man."




Caino
 

bucksplasher

New member
Fruit?

Fruit?

I see "traditional" schools, hospitals, charity centers etc. Do we have your teachings have institutions of a similar kind? tWINs
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
I see "traditional" schools, hospitals, charity centers etc. Do we have your teachings have institutions of a similar kind? tWINs



"And fail not to remember that the will of God can be done in any earthly occupation. Some callings are not holy and others secular. All things are sacred in the lives of those who are spirit led; that is, subordinated to truth, ennobled by love, dominated by mercy, and restrained by fairness — justice."

In short Bucksplasher, while the RCC has done and continues to do tremendous work around the world of a charitable nature, the exclusive business of religion needs to be salvation of the soul, carrying the gospel message. When the church, as an institution, involves itself in secular education, politics, business interests etc. it tarnishes or compromises what should be it's primary purpose.

YES! individual religionist's do incorporate their values in their civic duties, cultural adherence's and family life, but it's a mistake to do so in the name of a religion. The complete domination of the church in Europe was a disaster for Christendom, for the gospel, for secular governance. It misrepresented Jesus, he drew a clear distinction between what was God's and what was Caesar's.

INSTITUTIONAL RELIGION​

99:6.1 Sectarianism is a disease of institutional religion, and dogmatism is an enslavement of the spiritual nature. It is far better to have a religion without a church than a church without religion. The religious turmoil of the twentieth century does not, in and of itself, betoken spiritual decadence. Confusion goes before growth as well as before destruction.

99:6.2 There is a real purpose in the socialization of religion. It is the purpose of group religious activities to dramatize the loyalties of religion; to magnify the lures of truth, beauty, and goodness; to foster the attractions of supreme values; to enhance the service of unselfish fellowship; to glorify the potentials of family life; to promote religious education; to provide wise counsel and spiritual guidance; and to encourage group worship. And all live religions encourage human friendship, conserve morality, promote neighborhood welfare, and facilitate the spread of the essential gospel of their respective messages of eternal salvation.

99:6.3 But as religion becomes institutionalized, its power for good is curtailed, while the possibilities for evil are greatly multiplied. The dangers of formalized religion are: fixation of beliefs and crystallization of sentiments; accumulation of vested interests with increase of secularization; tendency to standardize and fossilize truth; diversion of religion from the service of God to the service of the church; inclination of leaders to become administrators instead of ministers; tendency to form sects and competitive divisions; establishment of oppressive ecclesiastical authority; creation of the aristocratic "chosen-people" attitude; fostering of false and exaggerated ideas of sacredness; the routinizing of religion and the petrification of worship; tendency to venerate the past while ignoring present demands; failure to make up-to-date interpretations of religion; entanglement with functions of secular institutions; it creates the evil discrimination of religious castes; it becomes an intolerant judge of orthodoxy; it fails to hold the interest of adventurous youth and gradually loses the saving message of the gospel of eternal salvation.

99:6.4 Formal religion restrains men in their personal spiritual activities instead of releasing them for heightened service as kingdom builders."​


Caino
 

bucksplasher

New member
I hope

I hope

"It is far better to have a religion without a church than a church without religion."

that we can have both and fight off the "dangers" mentioned.

tWINs
 
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