The Late Great Urantia Revelation

[Lon]

I'm here to carry the message of the Urantia revelation to those open minded enough to receive it. Christianity is a house divided, its dyeing, its unsalvageable. You are all a bunch of waring camps, each telling the other thousands of man made sects, we are right and you are wrong!

Not NEARLY as bad as you imagine. Our divisions are congenial enough. There is proof of this at every big Christian concert, event, and gatherings (like the old Billy Graham Crusades). Dying? :nono: Not at all. Shrinking a bit? Yes, but not dying. Changing up. I do, however, realize you are only here on TOL for one thing BUT it is an oddball agreement you had with Knight. You are literally breaking just about every TOL rule. Me? I'd politely 'stop' breaking the rules despite the former grandfathered agreement. There is no good that can come from infighting and that is all you guys have gotten for the past 10 or so years. It starts more fights and is all this thread has done.

"When theology masters religion, religion dies; it becomes a doctrine instead of a life."

Meaningless platitude, frankly.

Faith and the responsibility that comes with it, has always been the way of salvation.

Again, a meaningless platitude. Its blase and mediocre. The "Way" is given clearly in John 14:6 People who know just a tiny bit about their bibles summarize like this, in amateur sound-bytes and simpleton platitudes. Dr. Sadler was no theologian (nor a trained psychiatrist for that matter).

Jesus sought to return to that simple truth.

Er, no. That is a man dictating to God, rather than a man being dictated to by God. The Urantia is full of this man-centered carnal philosophy.

The selfish atonement doctrine is an interpretation of the cross by Jews who continued to try in vain to bring Israel to their compromised version of the gospel.

:nono: No good.

Its a desperate stretch to say that Peter said everything Paul wrote was scripture, thus making Paul's words equal to Jesus. And Peter was human.

Sorry "You are Peter the rock." Do I listen to the Lord Jesus Christ, or do I listen to a couple of amateurs, you and Dr. Sadler?

"Righteousness may be the divine thought, but love is a father's attitude.

Meaningless platitude with no context of meaning for it to actually mean anything but fluff. His ways AND thoughts are higher than man's. You basically have the same thing from the Greek gods, images cast after man and man-centered. You've a man for a god incapable and finite with a lot of Eastern Mysticism thrown in to boot. You likely don't see it, rationalizing as you are and do.

The erroneous supposition that the righteousness of God was irreconcilable with the selfless love of the heavenly Father, presupposed absence of unity in the nature of Deity and led directly to the elaboration of the atonement doctrine,

Human rationalizing.

which is a philosophic assault upon both the unity and the free-willness of God."

See? The sole concern is for 'poor man' and his tender little sensibilities and hurt feelings rather than a willingness to listen to God and meet Him for who He is, not what some fallen creature thinks He should be. It doesn't matter if ten of you want this kind of god, it is one in your own making. You don't GET to dictate to God how you, a finite fallible man, thinks he should be. He is who He is ("I Am"). You instead, GET to worship Him exactly as He is, whether you like Him or not else all you and the Urantia did, was make a god that fit YOUR sensibilities and desires, a god in YOUR own image.

 

[Lon]

You seem to have forgotten that you asked a question. In fact, you used three question marks, so you really wanted it answered. So the content I added to the thread was an answer to your question. If you are upset with the answer, perhaps you should repent of asking the question.

ALL to give you an opportunity to turn YOUR drive-by away from being a drive-by (against TOL rules). I don't CARE if you don't like Calvinists. Doesn't bother me in the least. What is more? You have no idea even, if I am one! :noway:

I believe both Urantia, Calvinism, and Jehovah's Witnesses equally believe in the Bible alone in that they all don't.

It doesn't matter, this isn't my thread. It is about the Urantia book.

And I believe both Urantia and Calvinism believe in outlandish things.

No study. It shows. You are just emoting, Hiltrot. Do better. As a Christian, I'm not proud of you right now. You are simply attacking (however well meaning), not lifting up the name of Christ here. You are a distraction (and also feeding Caino's point that all of us Christians are somehow divided, we are not, at least to this degree, even if a few like you are).

Urantia believes in Adjusters and other things which I haven't quite figured out about. But their religion seems to be based on Platonism like Calvinism is. Calvinists believe God used a grand cosmic lottery to select people to go to heaven or hell.er

This doesn't sound like a studied opinion, but an opinion second-hand. There are many denominations where both Calvinists and Arminians attend church together. It means YOUR particular problem with them is fairly small and under-represented in Christian Churches (if Caino is paying attention). So, I really cannot be bothered with amateur hour when you don't know who is in Christ, and who rejects him. Don Quixote attacked strawmen/windmills. Jesus said 'whoever is with us, is not against us.' The key would be His definition of who is in faith. Many Open Theists, even, on TOL, who do indeed argue with Calvinists, do not believe they are without Christ. Most of my professors weren't Calvinists, but a few were and I enjoyed their classes and their fellowship and teaching very much.

When I first heard Calvinist beliefs from one of my math teachers in high school, I laughed.

And?

To me, it was insanely silly.

What? What specifically (wrong thread again, if you want to talk Calvinism, this isn't the thread, take my quote and post in an appropriate thread)?

I couldn't understand, as you say it, how she could say that while keeping a straight face. How can someone scream "Allah Akbar" while flying a jumbo jet into a building while keeping a straight face.

When they kill people, it isn't 'straight face' anymore. It doesn't apply to Urantians either. They are quite a bit like Mormons, not like Calvinists or JW's etc. Learn differences between cults and what they believe.

How can Mitt Romney wear his protective temple underwear while keeping a straight face.

He may not. As I understand, only a few ever get that far into the LDS.

A lot of people believe a lot of things which are "silly". Pointing out that their beliefs are unusual or silly won't succeed in convincing them of anything.

So we are wasting our time here?

 

[Lon]

"Some day a reformation in the Christian church may strike deep enough to get back to the unadulterated religious teachings of Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. You may preach a religion about Jesus, but, perforce, you must live the religion of Jesus. In the enthusiasm of Pentecost, Peter unintentionally inaugurated a new religion, the religion of the risen and glorified Christ. The Apostle Paul later on transformed this new gospel into Christianity, a religion embodying his own theologic views and portraying his own personal experience with the Jesus of the Damascus road. The gospel of the kingdom is founded on the personal religious experience of the Jesus of Galilee; Christianity is founded almost exclusively on the personal religious experience of the Apostle Paul. Almost the whole of the New Testament is devoted, not to the portrayal of the significant and inspiring religious life of Jesus, but to a discussion of Paul's religious experience and to a portrayal of his personal religious convictions. The only notable exceptions to this statement, aside from certain parts of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, are the Book of Hebrews and the Epistle of James. Even Peter, in his writing, only once reverted to the personal religious life of his Master. The New Testament is a superb Christian document, but it is only meagerly Jesusonian."

Rationalizations that appeal ONLY to men and their flesh and fallen sensibilities. It appeals to men in their fallen state that want nothing else. It is very much Eastern Mysticism Nirvana expressions from fleshly people.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Its from the Urantia Book, figured people would know.

Doesn't matter. Still need to cite what you're quoting from.

 

[Hilltrot]

The Thought Adjusters are fragments of the Father that live within us. They are the will of God abroad in the universe. “I will put my pure spirit in thee.” They are a gift of the Universal Father that guide us if we choose to be lead.

Yep, that’s Platonism.

Silly is when two parties debate about a 2000+ page book that one of the two hasn’t read.

I read enough to realize the Platonistic origins before you did. Have you really read the book. The fact that you’re still following it tells me that is unlikely.

And people argue about the Bible all the the time before reading it.

 

[Caino]

Not NEARLY as bad as you imagine. Our divisions are congenial enough. There is proof of this at every big Christian concert, event, and gatherings (like the old Billy Graham Crusades). Dying? :nono: Not at all. Shrinking a bit? Yes, but not dying. Changing up. I do, however, realize you are only here on TOL for one thing BUT it is an oddball agreement you had with Knight. You are literally breaking just about every TOL rule. Me? I'd politely 'stop' breaking the rules despite the former grandfathered agreement. There is no good that can come from infighting and that is all you guys have gotten for the past 10 or so years. It starts more fights and is all this thread has done.

Meaningless platitude, frankly.

Again, a meaningless platitude. Its blase and mediocre. The "Way" is given clearly in John 14:6 People who know just a tiny bit about their bibles summarize like this, in amateur sound-bytes and simpleton platitudes. Dr. Sadler was no theologian (nor a trained psychiatrist for that matter).

Er, no. That is a man dictating to God, rather than a man being dictated to by God. The Urantia is full of this man-centered carnal philosophy.

:nono: No good.

Sorry "You are Peter the rock." Do I listen to the Lord Jesus Christ, or do I listen to a couple of amateurs, you and Dr. Sadler?

Meaningless platitude with no context of meaning for it to actually mean anything but fluff. His ways AND thoughts are higher than man's. You basically have the same thing from the Greek gods, images cast after man and man-centered. You've a man for a god incapable and finite with a lot of Eastern Mysticism thrown in to boot. You likely don't see it, rationalizing as you are and do.

Human rationalizing.


See? The sole concern is for 'poor man' and his tender little sensibilities and hurt feelings rather than a willingness to listen to God and meet Him for who He is, not what some fallen creature thinks He should be. It doesn't matter if ten of you want this kind of god, it is one in your own making. You don't GET to dictate to God how you, a finite fallible man, thinks he should be. He is who He is ("I Am"). You instead, GET to worship Him exactly as He is, whether you like Him or not else all you and the Urantia did, was make a god that fit YOUR sensibilities and desires, a god in YOUR own image.

Peter the rock who denied Jesus 3 times even after being told he would? That's not a rock, that's a fallible human. Jesus was proving that to us.

In context "The Rock" as it were, was/is God the Father bearing witness to the identity of the Son in the heart of the believer. The Church at Rome used the context to establish its "authority" of succession directly to Peter. Yet another example of the re-institutionalization of religion that Jesus liberated us from.

Christianity is sect divided.

Our Creator Son Christ Michael has ALWAYS been the way to the Father. He wasn't a "new way."

 

[Caino]

Yep, that’s Platonism.


I read enough to realize the Platonistic origins before you did. Have you really read the book. The fact that you’re still following it tells me that is unlikely.

And people argue about the Bible all the the time before reading it.

I don't remember how many times I've read the UB over 35 years of studying it.

I can answer questions about the content you have.

 

[Caino]

Rationalizations that appeal ONLY to men and their flesh and fallen sensibilities. It appeals to men in their fallen state that want nothing else. It is very much Eastern Mysticism Nirvana expressions from fleshly people.

The Church has its own pride.

 

[Caino]

What really happened on the occasion of Peters confession?


157:3.3 "As they paused for lunch, Jesus suddenly confronted the twelve with the first question he had ever addressed to them concerning himself. He asked this surprising question, “Who do men say that I am?”

157:3.4 Jesus had spent long months in training these apostles as to the nature and character of the kingdom of heaven, and he well knew the time had come when he must begin to teach them more about his own nature and his personal relationship to the kingdom. And now, as they were seated under the mulberry trees, the Master made ready to hold one of the most momentous sessions of his long association with the chosen apostles.

157:3.5 More than half the apostles participated in answering Jesus' question. They told him that he was regarded as a prophet or as an extraordinary man by all who knew him; that even his enemies greatly feared him, accounting for his powers by the indictment that he was in league with the prince of devils. They told him that some in Judea and Samaria who had not met him personally believed he was John the Baptist risen from the dead. Peter explained that he had been, at sundry times and by various persons, compared with Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, and Jeremiah. When Jesus had listened to this report, he drew himself upon his feet, and looking down upon the twelve sitting about him in a semicircle, with startling emphasis he pointed to them with a sweeping gesture of his hand and asked, “But who say you that I am?” There was a moment of tense silence. The twelve never took their eyes off the Master, and then Simon Peter, springing to his feet, exclaimed: “You are the Deliverer, the Son of the living God.” And the eleven sitting apostles arose to their feet with one accord, thereby indicating that Peter had spoken for all of them.

157:3.6 When Jesus had beckoned them again to be seated, and while still standing before them, he said: “This has been revealed to you by my Father. The hour has come when you should know the truth about me. But for the time being I charge you that you tell this to no man. Let us go hence.”

157:3.7 And so they resumed their journey to Caesarea-Philippi arriving late that evening and stopping at the home of Celsus, who was expecting them. The apostles slept little that night; they seemed to sense that a great event in their lives and in the work of the kingdom had transpired.



157:4.3 They were all seated in the garden at just about noon when the Master appeared. They wore expressions of dignified solemnity, and all arose to their feet as he approached them. Jesus relieved the tension by that friendly and fraternal smile which was so characteristic of him when his followers took themselves, or some happening related to themselves, too seriously. With a commanding gesture he indicated that they should be seated. Never again did the twelve greet their Master by arising when he came into their presence. They saw that he did not approve of such an outward show of respect.

157:4.4

After they had partaken of their meal and were engaged in discussing plans for the forthcoming tour of the Decapolis, Jesus suddenly looked up into their faces and said: “Now that a full day has passed since you assented to Simon Peter's declaration regarding the identity of the Son of Man, I would ask if you still hold to your decision?” On hearing this, the twelve stood upon their feet, and Simon Peter, stepping a few paces forward toward Jesus, said: “Yes, Master, we do. We believe that you are the Son of the living God.” And Peter sat down with his brethren.

157:4.5 Jesus, still standing, then said to the twelve: “You are my chosen ambassadors, but I know that, in the circumstances, you could not entertain this belief as a result of mere human knowledge. This is a revelation of the spirit of my Father to your inmost souls. And when, therefore, you make this confession by the insight of the spirit of my Father which dwells within you, I am led to declare that upon this foundation will I build the brotherhood of the kingdom of heaven. Upon this rock of spiritual reality will I build the living temple of spiritual fellowship in the eternal realities of my Father's kingdom. All the forces of evil and the hosts of sin shall not prevail against this human fraternity of the divine spirit. And while my Father's spirit shall ever be the divine guide and mentor of all who enter the bonds of this spirit fellowship, to you and your successors I now deliver the keys of the outward kingdom—the authority over things temporal—the social and economic features of this association of men and women as fellows of the kingdom.” And again he charged them, for the time being, that they should tell no man that he was the Son of God." UB 1955

 

[Hilltrot]

I don't remember how many times I've read the UB over 35 years of studying it.

I can answer questions about the content you have.

Sure.

Let's start with the beginning. Why were we made? Or, why do we exist?

 

[Caino]

Sure.

Let's start with the beginning. Why were we made? Or, why do we exist?

Life was created on our planet roughly 550,000,000 years ago by the Life Carriers.
Life then evolved into life as we know it today.
Will conscious man appeared on the scene roughly 1,000,000 years ago.
Our personality is from the Father.
Mind benefits from the presence of spiritual forces.

We exist because Gods so willed.

 

[Hilltrot]

Life was created on our planet roughly 550,000,000 years ago by the Life Carriers.
Life then evolved into life as we know it today.
Will conscious man appeared on the scene roughly 1,000,000 years ago.
Our personality is from the Father.
Mind benefits from the presence of spiritual forces.

We exist because Gods so willed.

So, let me be clear. You believe the Urantia Book says that there is no known reason for why we were created. The origin story is a form of theistic evolution. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Right Divider]

Its from the Urantia Book, figured people would know.

 

[Caino]

So, let me be clear. You believe the Urantia Book says that there is no known reason for why we were created. The origin story is a form of theistic evolution. Correct me if I am wrong.

No! You are not clear, I just answered your question.---------> "We exist because God so willed."

Yes, theistic evolution. Within the forward march of evolution there is a purposive potential.

God is Loving Father and decided to have children. If you don't want that you can reject it and go back to being nothing at all.

2:1.10 "Because the First Father is infinite in his plans and eternal in his purposes, it is inherently impossible for any finite being ever to grasp or comprehend these divine plans and purposes in their fullness. Mortal man can glimpse the Father's purposes only now and then, here and there, as they are revealed in relation to the outworking of the plan of creature ascension on its successive levels of universe progression. Though man cannot encompass the significance of infinity, the infinite Father does most certainly fully comprehend and lovingly embrace all the finity of all his children in all universes." UB 1955

 

[Hilltrot]

"We exist because God so willed."

That's a how - not a why.

2:1.10 "Because the First Father is infinite in his plans and eternal in his purposes, it is inherently impossible for any finite being ever to grasp or comprehend these divine plans and purposes in their fullness. Mortal man can glimpse the Father's purposes only now and then, here and there, as they are revealed in relation to the outworking of the plan of creature ascension on its successive levels of universe progression. Though man cannot encompass the significance of infinity, the infinite Father does most certainly fully comprehend and lovingly embrace all the finity of all his children in all universes." UB 1955

This quote makes it abundantly clear that the why or reason why is not known. According to Urantia we are so insignificant, we are only allowed a "glimpse" into the "Father's" purposes only now and then.

Now that we have gone over the beginning, let's move to the present. According to the Urantia Book, what should we be doing right now and why?

 

[Caino]

That's a how - not a why.



This quote makes it abundantly clear that the why or reason why is not known. According to Urantia we are so insignificant, we are only allowed a "glimpse" into the "Father's" purposes only now and then.

Now that we have gone over the beginning, let's move to the present. According to the Urantia Book, what should we be doing right now and why?

We are children of God, far from "insignificant". We just are not equipped to understand more than we can. If a 4 year old demands to understand everything then he will just have to be content with "not yet".

Right now we should be living in accordance with the will of God so that we can grow in spirit and understanding to partake in the finality of his plan.

 

[Hilltrot]

Right now we should be living in accordance with the will of God so that we can grow in spirit and understanding to partake in the finality of his plan.

Still not answering what we should be doing. "living in accordance with the will of God" is a bit too vague. Please expand on this. For example, a Muslim lives according to the will of God by slamming a jumbo jet into a crowded building. I don't think this is what you mean, but I'd rather not guess.

Expanding on the first may give a little more meaning to the second part - "grow in spirit and understanding to partake in the finality of his plan".

 

[Caino]

Still not answering what we should be doing. "living in accordance with the will of God" is a bit too vague. Please expand on this. For example, a Muslim lives according to the will of God by slamming a jumbo jet into a crowded building. I don't think this is what you mean, but I'd rather not guess.

Expanding on the first may give a little more meaning to the second part - "grow in spirit and understanding to partake in the finality of his plan".

I take it you are an Atheist?

The will of God is found in the practice of prayerful contemplation by a sincere, spirit born child of God. Seeking God and finding him, God becomes a constant presence in our lives.

"We" as a community should be serving one another and striving to bring about a peaceful brotherhood.
"We" as individuals should seek the kingdom of heaven with all of our heart.

 

[Hilltrot]

I take it you are an Atheist?

Nope, I'm one of these

The will of God is found in the practice of prayerful contemplation by a sincere, spirit born child of God. Seeking God and finding him, God becomes a constant presence in our lives.

This seems very similar to the Platonic Ascent. Are you familiar with it?

From what I can tell, it seems like the Urantia Book has this improvement through meditation which causes one to be "closer" to God. Although, it seems like you have different words for it like evolution instead of ascent.

"We" as a community should be serving one another and striving to bring about a peaceful brotherhood.
"We" as individuals should seek the kingdom of heaven with all of our heart.

Of course this brings about the question of what "We" means. I'm assuming "we" only refers to those who believe in the Urantia Book but I could be wrong, so correct me if I misinterpret your beliefs.

(One odd thing I have to ask - according to your beliefs, does brotherhood include only men?)

Most religions believe in peace and a "kingdom of heaven" in one form or another. However, how they plan to do it is more important than the vague goal. Yes, most religions want people to do the "right" thing but most people do whatever the local custom expects.

So, if there are any more specific guidelines in the Urantia book, please share them.

On to the final part. What do you believe the Urantia Book says about death and what happens afterwords?

 

[Lon]

Peter the rock who denied Jesus 3 times even after being told he would? That's not a rock, that's a fallible human. Jesus was proving that to us.

Then, honestly, you've nothing you can trust but yourself. You've a god in your own image at that point (as did Sadler).

In context "The Rock" as it were, was/is God the Father bearing witness to the identity of the Son in the heart of the believer.

Nice spiritualizing of the text :Z It isn't how one reads and does theology: to suit their whims and already cemented Eastern Philosophies.

The Church at Rome used the context to establish its "authority" of succession directly to Peter. Yet another example of the re-institutionalization of religion that Jesus liberated us from.

Where? Not the UB.

Christianity is sect divided.

And the UB somehow makes yet even one more twice-removed from Mormonism and Eastern Mysticism and you think that's good????!

Our Creator Son Christ Michael has ALWAYS been the way to the Father. He wasn't a "new way."

Doesn't speak a word of anything cogent to me. Yes, I know it is the UB. No, it is simply the fictionalizing of men and women and easily seen as that and nothing more. It takes a whole lot of earth shaking and walking on water to get my particular attention. Not some odd-men-out typing up pages in an apartment.