The Late Great Urantia Revelation

[journey]

Because that's been done before to no avail. This isn't a game. I take my discussion seriously, but can have fun as well,...but theres a limit of how much foolishness and nonsense can be taken if one is not engaging in actual discussion of the subject, and only mocking it. Words have meaning, which is why its essential if one is to engage in a real dialogue, that terms are learned, understood to be properly translated. There can be no dialogue with a 'troll' (this term defined properly and proved by their own actions).



pj

troll = someone who would post something like the urantia book on a Christian forum.

 

[freelight]

The real sacrifice is the giving up of the 'ego'......

The real sacrifice is the giving up of the 'ego'......

:nonoualism, with layers of hocus pocus. Still in-slaved.

The Beast is your limbic system. The paleo-mammalian survival-brain, and all that comes from it as a false reality. YOUR false prosopon.

The 'I AM' itself is free, so is not 'enslaved' by anything, it being pure 'being' or 'awareness'. This is the essence of true 'non-duality', since the 'atman' IS 'Brahman'

We've already exposed the inefficiency of 'blood-atonement', which is what Zeke noted,...that a human sacrifice cannot effect what a soul is responsible for himself to undertake, as far as making reperation for his own 'sins'. A blood-atonement therefore is only 'figurative' or 'symbolic',...but not sure what this has to do with any form of 'dualism'.

All the blood poured out for you or all the religious rituals cannot cleanse the conscience from 'sin' or its 'effects' (they may assist the soul in the inward process), since only true repentance, spiritual transformation, inward change can do that, which then affects a change outwards in thoughts, words and deeds.




pj

 

[freelight]

troll = someone who would post something like the urantia book on a Christian forum.

False. Its not trolling at all, since such a comprehensive and extensive tome such as the Urantia Papers is worthy of discussion in its epochal significance, especially on the subject of Religion. You show your ignorance of what the papers are even about.



pj

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

You are new here and still have a few clues to buy. Your statement is a sheer display of ignorance, since the teaching of Jesus espoused in great detail in Part 4 is pure in its principles, morals and ethics concerning the kingdom of God and the real practice of 'true religion' itself....agreeing with the gospel records and adding more (enhancements/corrections) from the perspective of this particular commission.

Its different views on particular doctrinal points are just like what differs between denominations within Christendom,...there is a variety of 'interpretations'. Voodoo and witchcraft are far from the Judeo-Christian ethics and principles expounded in the papers, which goes to show you are ignorant of the content. With that, you have ignorance and assumptions, biased heavily by your religious belief-system.

Show where Jesus teaches anything remotely close to 'voodoo' and 'witchcraft' in Part 4 and you might have some 'leverage' there in your 'comparison-example'. We'll be waiting. The gospel of the kingdom is shared in its purity, of loving service to others thru the regenerating power of the Spirit who reveals all souls to be children of God, and likewise God being their Spirit-Father ('sonship' and 'Fatherhood' are simultaneously realized in the Spirit). The Fatherhood of God and Brotherhood of Man is the underlying truth lived and revealed by the teaching-example of Jesus.

The Kingdom of Heaven



pj

Urantia preaches another Jesus.


Supposedly Peter and the brotherhood at Pentecost, speaking by the Holy Spirit were wrong, urantia claims God did not fulfill scripture by not allowing his Holy One to see corruption........






189:2.6 The Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus has been based on the fact of the “empty tomb.” It was indeed a fact that the tomb was empty, but this is not the truth of the resurrection. The tomb was truly empty when the first believers arrived, and this fact, associated with that of the undoubted resurrection of the Master, led to the formulation of a belief which was not true: the teaching that the material and mortal body of Jesus was raised from the grave. Truth having to do with spiritual realities and eternal values cannot always be built up by a combination of apparent facts. Although individual facts may be materially true, it does not follow that the association of a group of facts must necessarily lead to truthful spiritual conclusions.

189:2.7 The tomb of Joseph was empty, not because the body of Jesus had been rehabilitated or resurrected, but because the celestial hosts had been granted their request to afford it a special and unique dissolution, a return of the “dust to dust,” without the intervention of the delays of time and without the operation of the ordinary and visible processes of mortal decay and material corruption.

189:2.8 The mortal remains of Jesus underwent the same natural process of elemental disintegration as characterizes all human bodies on earth except that, in point of time, this natural mode of dissolution was greatly accelerated, hastened to that point where it became well-nigh instantaneous.


Then they claim that the helping spirits only come after the son sends the spirit of truth.

Seven of them.

But what does Jesus say about these?

Matthew 12:45 KJV
Then goeth he , and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.


Luke 11:26 KJV
Then goeth he , and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in , and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.


What does Paul say about these?


1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear , lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached , or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received , or another gospel, which ye have not accepted , ye might well bear with him.



13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[jeremysdemo]

I think the seven spirits being referenced that went out to the churches are found in Revelation 1:4; 3:1; 4:5; and 5:6. Christ holds the seven spirits of God Revelation 4:5.

Also the papers to my knowledge do not deny the resurrection of Jesus in 1. The Morontia Transit,

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I think the seven spirits being referenced that went out to the churches are found in Revelation 1:4; 3:1; 4:5; and 5:6. Christ holds the seven spirits of God Revelation 4:5.

7 SPIRITS.

Not 7 x 5,000,000,000 spirits.

Also the papers to my knowledge do not deny the resurrection of Jesus in 1. The Morontia Transit,

Yes, they denied the resurrection.

As it was foretold by God through the mouths of His Holy prophets.

Psalm 16:10 KJV
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

189:2.8 The mortal remains of Jesus underwent the same natural process of elemental disintegration as characterizes all human bodies on earth except that, in point of time, this natural mode of dissolution was greatly accelerated, hastened to that point where it became well-nigh instantaneous.

The subtle lie was in their first statement. (below)

189:2.6 The Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus has been based on the fact of the “empty tomb.”

It was not based on the fact of the empty tomb.

It was based on scripture.
And the witness of the brethren.
Not the witness of an empty tomb,for that would prove nothing.




Acts 2 on Pentecost
29 Men and brethren, let me freely * speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried , and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


32 This Jesus hath God raised up , whereof we all are witnesses.




What about this urantia nonsense of ascending into the heavens to attain Divinity?

You reckon David was one of the not ready minds?



32 This Jesus hath God raised up , whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted , and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear .

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

The 'I AM' itself is free, so is not 'enslaved' by anything, it being pure 'being' or 'awareness'. This is the essence of true 'non-duality', since the 'atman' IS 'Brahman'

But this is just the same bare declarative assertion as all your rhetoric (rhetoric in the generic sense, not being overtly pejorative).

Without comprehending and understanding Rhema and Logos, Pneuma and Psuche, and Ousia, Hypostasis, and Prosopon, you can't know why the above is completely untenable.

Define essence. But when you do, it won't be according to any standard other than your own or late linguistics. Logos is NOT Rhema. And Pneuma is not Psuche. The ONLY thing that can pierce to the dividing asunder of Psuche and Pneuma is THE Logos. That must be relative to THE Rhema.

You can't know what the above means. You can't. That's why you say (logos) so many other things (rhemas).

Only THE Rhema is the substantial underlying reality of existence for ALL. But you can never know it because you don't know THE Logos. All the rest of all the writings and sayings and your rhetoric is just a series of other logoi, not THE Logos. So... it's not THE Rhema.

We've already exposed the inefficiency of 'blood-atonement', which is what Zeke noted,...that a human sacrifice cannot effect what a soul is responsible for himself to undertake, as far as making reperation for his own 'sins'.

The nephesh (soul life) of the flesh is in the blood. That's very literal and actual. And the blood is made by the marrow. That's why joints and marrow is body and soul. And the Logos pierces to the dividing asunder of soul/spirit and body/soul. One on each edge of the sword.

Though there's great typology and symbolism, it's also literal in every way. It's ontological. It's the underlyind reality of substantial existence.

A blood-atonement therefore is only 'figurative' or 'symbolic',...but not sure what this has to do with any form of 'dualism'.

It's NOT therefore only "figurative" or "symbolic". It's both literal AND figurative. No dichotomy.

And Dualism is another topic. Zeke is a Dualist, with the whole black wolf/white wolf thing, etc. The Christian faith is NOT Dualism. Evil (Ra) is not eternal. It had a beginning.

All the blood poured out for you or all the religious rituals cannot cleanse the conscience from 'sin' or its 'effects' (they may assist the soul in the inward process), since only true repentance, spiritual transformation, inward change can do that, which then affects a change outwards in thoughts, words and deeds.

pj

You just don't know the true Esotericism, which is the core foundational Christian faith. The mainstream dilutions and perversions are exactly that.

You're dancing all around the truth. The sad thing is, it's the closest you can get. You're still outside the veil and can't see in. But I see you. From the substance (hypostasis) of God, into which I'm engrafted. I'm behind the veil. It was torn for me. It remains for you. It needn't be so, but alas it is how it is.

 

[jeremysdemo]

7 SPIRITS.

Not 7 x 5,000,000,000 spirits.

your charge before indicated that the number 7 the papers was used meant it referred to 7 demons in the parable of Jesus.

but yet you clearly ignored the correlation to the 7 spirits of God in Revelation.

If I didn't know better, one might conclude you are purposefully trying to find fault where there is none....

Yes, they denied the resurrection.

As it was foretold by God through the mouths of His Holy prophets.

Psalm 16:10 KJV
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

perhaps you are combining two unrelated concepts.

one is spiritual corruption, and one is physical.

Jesus death no more made him spiritually corrupt than anything else in his lifetime.

 

[freelight]

Resurrection bodies

Resurrection bodies

Urantia preaches another Jesus.


Supposedly Peter and the brotherhood at Pentecost, speaking by the Holy Spirit were wrong, urantia claims God did not fulfill scripture by not allowing his Holy One to see corruption........


189:2.6 The Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus has been based on the fact of the “empty tomb.” It was indeed a fact that the tomb was empty, but this is not the truth of the resurrection. The tomb was truly empty when the first believers arrived, and this fact, associated with that of the undoubted resurrection of the Master, led to the formulation of a belief which was not true: the teaching that the material and mortal body of Jesus was raised from the grave. Truth having to do with spiritual realities and eternal values cannot always be built up by a combination of apparent facts. Although individual facts may be materially true, it does not follow that the association of a group of facts must necessarily lead to truthful spiritual conclusions.

189:2.7 The tomb of Joseph was empty, not because the body of Jesus had been rehabilitated or resurrected, but because the celestial hosts had been granted their request to afford it a special and unique dissolution, a return of the “dust to dust,” without the intervention of the delays of time and without the operation of the ordinary and visible processes of mortal decay and material corruption.

189:2.8 The mortal remains of Jesus underwent the same natural process of elemental disintegration as characterizes all human bodies on earth except that, in point of time, this natural mode of dissolution was greatly accelerated, hastened to that point where it became well-nigh instantaneous.

We recommend reading the above carefully.

First of all understanding the papers teaching on the 'morontial' body is essential here.
It is with the morontial body that Jesus made his post-resurrection appearances. If his material body was disintegrated thru special spiritual means...transenergized as it were...back to the elements...this poses no problem since its the law of nature (albeit sped up by supernatural means). You're assuming Jesus was raised in the same physical body he was born with...why is that necessary? All matterial forms are subject to transformation.....death, birth, rebirth. 'Morontia' describes that which is in between the physical and spiritual ...that quality of existence beyond the physical yet not wholly spiritual.

Morontia defined

The Morontia Life ( Paper 48)

The papers affirm Jesus arose from death but not necessarily according to an orthodox Christian definition or assumption. Jesus does appear in his morontial form ( at least 19 times if my memory serves) proving that he is alive and well. Jesus didn't see corruption....for he stayed true to the eternal law and principle of life fulfilling God's will. Prove that the word 'corruption' in the passage you refer to above is to be defined exclusively as the normal process of physical death. We would affirm more pointedly....Jesus soul did not see corruption.

Orthodox Christianity assumes an actual physical or 'bodily' resurrection...yet this is complicated by metaphysical suppositions...when a morontial form is more tenable especially if all matterial bodies undergo the natural process of death....and then are raised in a 'morontial' or 'spiritual' body. The soul progresses thru the morontial level of existence (the mansion worlds after death)...until attaining spirit perfection in the more pure spheres of Paradise.

We would note that the resurrection is of the soul-spirit...not the mortal physical body. Only that which has immortality-potential may become immortal. 'Resurrection' indicates survival or a rising
of the soul after death (in a new body). There are many resurrections, as many as a soul needs in its journey towards perfection.



pj

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

False. Its not trolling at all, since such a comprehensive and extensive tome such as the Urantia Papers is worthy of discussion in its epochal significance, especially on the subject of Religion. You show your ignorance of what the papers are even about.



pj

I find the "Urantia Book" and its adherers, not only to be
abhorrent but, worthy of my disgust, mocking, disdain, and
ridicule!

I readily admit; I rather enjoy taking aim at such a work
of fiction, and how the naive cling to such rubbish!

Perhaps someday, Freelight, Caino, and their fellow "Urantians"
will grow up and leave such non-sense behind them? However,
I have my doubts! I see similarities between "Urantia" adherents
and Scientologists sordid delusions!

 

[Eeset]

'Resurrection' indicates survival or a rising
of the soul after death (in a new body). There are many resurrections, as many as a soul needs in its journey towards perfection.



pj

I prefer the term incarnations. Jesus linked the two terms in speaking to Nicodemus when He said born again. Being born again of the spirit is not some hocus pocus ritual that takes place in an evangelical seance. It is exactly as He described in John 3.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You could no less prove your 'concept' or 'reference' to a collection of books written under a variety of pseudonyms is the so called 'word of god' than you can Dr. Seuss is the the author of the children's book series by the assumed 'name'. A book is to be judged by its 'contents'. - you can slap a holy 'label' on anything, that doesn't make it truly 'inspired', and even then...there is always an element of distortion due to the human 'channels' involved. In this case, all 'truth' is relative, if subject to any kind of conditioning or modification involved in its 'transmission'. - some 'communications' are therefore more 'pure' than others.

We've address the primitive concept of 'blood-atonement' here, a concept that doesn't hold according to certain principles of real 'justice' and 'self-responsibility', which a blood-atonement of any kind (animal or human) cannot atone for, because each are responsible for their own sins, and likewise responsible for their own 'salvation' (repentance, turning to God, choosing right, etc.). No one can do the work of repentance for you, that is something you alone must do, in cooperation with the grace ever available. If any freedom of choice exists, the principle of 'self-responsibility' cannot be abrogated.

Blood, bread, wine, wafers, etc.....and other Eucharistic 'emblems' are merely symbolic 'tokens', which reflect back to the participant some inward gesture of repentance and communion with Spirit. The ritual is only 'efficacious' if a real surrender and inner transformation is attended with the ritual, otherwise it is simply a 'mechanical' act. The inward gesture must accompany the outward act of worship, they becoming one, to be complete. That is the primary aim and intention of the ritual. At last, it comes down to what is being 'translated' in the heart, soul and spirit of the individual in his communion with 'God', that matters in our meditations on the subject of 'religion'.



pj

Sorry Freelight, but I don't have the patience to read
all of your posts! You do realize, you're a bit of a
'windbag' when it comes to writing some of your
"brilliant" (sarcasm mine) and lengthy comments,
do you not?

You write as if you're up for some kind of an award!
You know; five dollar words and such!

 

[freelight]

miss...........

miss...........

Then they claim that the helping spirits only come after the son sends the spirit of truth.

Seven of them.

But what does Jesus say about these?

Matthew 12:45 KJV
Then goeth he , and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.


Luke 11:26 KJV
Then goeth he , and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in , and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

False assumption/correlation. Please show where it is taught that only after the Spirit of Truth was poured out after Jesus resurrection that 7 helping spirits were released. The 7 Master Spirits have existed from eternity....they didn't just begin their ministry connected with some event on Urantia. Claiming that Jesus identified these 7 spirits as the demons in his parable is nonsensical to say the least.

What does Paul say about these?

Paul taught his own gospel so shares alot of his own opinions. Are you putting stock in his words or Jesus?

Paul Studies



pj

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

False assumption/correlation. Please show where it is taught that only after the Spirit of Truth was poured out after Jesus resurrection that 7 helping spirits were released. The 7 Master Spirits have existed from eternity....they didn't just begin their ministry connected with some event on Urantia. Claiming that Jesus identified these 7 spirits as the demons in his parable is nonsensical to say the least.




Paul taught his own gospel so shares alot of his own opinions. Are you putting stock in his words or Jesus?

Paul Studies



pj

They say; "Ignorance is bliss!" If that's the case then, you
ought to be the happiest guy on the face of the earth!

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

False assumption/correlation. Please show where it is taught that only after the Spirit of Truth was poured out after Jesus resurrection that 7 helping spirits were released. The 7 Master Spirits have existed from eternity....they didn't just begin their ministry connected with some event on Urantia. Claiming that Jesus identified these 7 spirits as the demons in his parable is nonsensical to say the least.




Paul taught his own gospel so shares alot of his own opinions. Are you putting stock in his words or Jesus?

Paul Studies



pj

Cant find it now, no big deal.

I was talkin bout the spirits that can only flood the world after the bestowal son's visit.

Supposedly 7 for each of us.

They would coincide perfectly with Satan and his cohorts masquerading as angels of light.

Purdy easy to see when you have the Holy Spirit and know his wiles.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Paul taught his own gospel so shares alot of his own opinions. Are you putting stock in his words or Jesus?

Paul Studies



pj

I have told you before, I already know when Paul speaks his opinion and when he is speaking from God.

So what's yer point?

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Cant find it now, no big deal.

I was talkin bout the spirits that can only flood the world after the bestowal son's visit.

Supposedly 7 for each of us.

They would coincide perfectly with Satan and his cohorts masquerading as angels of light.

Purdy easy to see when you have the Holy Spirit and know his wiles.

Most likely, exegetically this is more appropriately "the seven-fold spirit" of God.

There was a language "mechanism" of usage that represented a numerical plurality for omnipresence or all-pervading presence.

With eight points on a compass (N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW), seven-fold was the manner of expressing omnidirectionality by including the "seven-fold" of all the other points on the compass when referring to any one point.

It wasn't a cardinal number reference. It was a linguistic "device" as a built-in figure of speech to express omnidirectionality to indicate omnipresence.

The plurality was more qualitative than quantitative, though we do see "facets" of that same spirit delineated. Spirit of power and might. Spirit of wisdom and revelation.

It's more about presence and distribution of God's inherent attributes by and as the Holy Spirit. It indicates God's multi-omni nature with one representation of qualitative intensity and immensity by a quantitative expression.

Any one point on a compass includes all 7 other points on the compass.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I have told you before, I already know when Paul speaks his opinion and when he is speaking from God.

So what's yer point?

He has none! You see, he just pontificates what they call, "baloney"
or mumbo jumbo! Those are the technical terms for what he
espouses!

 

[Zeke]

But this is just the same bare declarative assertion as all your rhetoric (rhetoric in the generic sense, not being overtly pejorative).

Without comprehending and understanding Rhema and Logos, Pneuma and Psuche, and Ousia, Hypostasis, and Prosopon, you can't know why the above is completely untenable.

Define essence. But when you do, it won't be according to any standard other than your own or late linguistics. Logos is NOT Rhema. And Pneuma is not Psuche. The ONLY thing that can pierce to the dividing asunder of Psuche and Pneuma is THE Logos. That must be relative to THE Rhema.

You can't know what the above means. You can't. That's why you say (logos) so many other things (rhemas).

Only THE Rhema is the substantial underlying reality of existence for ALL. But you can never know it because you don't know THE Logos. All the rest of all the writings and sayings and your rhetoric is just a series of other logoi, not THE Logos. So... it's not THE Rhema.



The nephesh (soul life) of the flesh is in the blood. That's very literal and actual. And the blood is made by the marrow. That's why joints and marrow is body and soul. And the Logos pierces to the dividing asunder of soul/spirit and body/soul. One on each edge of the sword.

Though there's great typology and symbolism, it's also literal in every way. It's ontological. It's the underlyind reality of substantial existence.



It's NOT therefore only "figurative" or "symbolic". It's both literal AND figurative. No dichotomy.

And Dualism is another topic. Zeke is a Dualist, with the whole black wolf/white wolf thing, etc. The Christian faith is NOT Dualism. Evil (Ra) is not eternal. It had a beginning.



You just don't know the true Esotericism, which is the core foundational Christian faith. The mainstream dilutions and perversions are exactly that.

You're dancing all around the truth. The sad thing is, it's the closest you can get. You're still outside the veil and can't see in. But I see you. From the substance (hypostasis) of God, into which I'm engrafted. I'm behind the veil. It was torn for me. It remains for you. It needn't be so, but alas it is how it is.

We all start out in dualism, the veil is the literal and seeing you still think Jesus had to die for your sins for that dualism your kidding yourself if you think you have entered the beloved.

 

[Zeke]

I prefer the term incarnations. Jesus linked the two terms in speaking to Nicodemus when He said born again. Being born again of the spirit is not some hocus pocus ritual that takes place in an evangelical seance. It is exactly as He described in John 3.

The Bible is more like blacks law, it is coded and the literal grasp of the words (historical myth) that you may think means one thing really mean something else, like currant or birthed in law are shipping terms but not literally etc.............being born again is when you awaken to the fraud your born into without full disclosure or consent.

The literal God outside yourself is based on fear (mantal chitter chatter), and is a deceiver like OZ, everything you need is within you and no matter what someone else tells you they are just part of the props of the stage in the illusion of time.

Ego needs impressed and all kinds of proof, and majors in the literal realm and mocks the spiritual.