The I John 5: 6-8 Issue

[freelight]

sub atomic fusion busters......

sub atomic fusion busters......

Yeah.

Couple years ago I suggested they found God when they split the atom.

Lucky I wasn't burned at the stake.:nuke::chuckle:

Well,...there is the 'god-particle' (Higgs boson).

 

[CherubRam]

Subtle metaphysics within a tri-une concept, allows for diversification within the unity of God, and this concept is revealed in Nature in various associations, and the fact of sub-atomic energy being a universal substance out of which all is made, so we have one infinite Spirit and many forms,...from which also personalities arise. A trinity-concept, being a 'concept' then is not a problem, as trinities exist in nature and various philosophical constructs,...its just how its superimposed in a doctrinal format, and then the making of that 'conceptual model' as some kind of absolute reality, when at best it serves as a 'relational construct'. And still, the traditional-orthodox creeds maintain a staunch MONOTHEISM, none the less. No matter how you slice or dice 'God',...this DEITY is still and always ONE. - all multiples go back to 'square 1'

The Trinity can only be understood, proved or related in an intellectual fashion, while what ever is spiritually true about 'God' or anything, is a matter of spiritual discerning. Since a trinity is a company, its significance is 'relational'.

Well said. But as a matter of fact, Trinitarianism was introduced into scriptures by the Gnostic's; whom many were Catholics. If God was indeed a Trinity, then that would have been a teaching in Orthodox Judaism.

 

[freelight]

Seeing any Gnostic influence, but charting the Orthodox in their own creations.....

Seeing any Gnostic influence, but charting the Orthodox in their own creations.....

Well said. But as a matter of fact, Trinitarianism was introduced into scriptures by the Gnostic's; whom many were Catholics. If God was indeed a Trinity, then that would have been a teaching in Orthodox Judaism.

Remember, I'm kinda 'gnostic' - we had our 'Gnostic Cosmology' thread and I do have my own social group the 'Esoteric School of Gnostic Wisdom',...however I use the term 'gnostic' in all-inclusive universal sense, so it can include gnostic elements in the more liberal classic gnostic schools of the first 3 centuries and within the traditional-orthodox Christian vein (Valentinianism, etc.). Today some scholars are even wondering if the term 'gnostic' should be applied since its meaning has become polemicized and splintered somewhat,...however I include its essential meaning of a religio-philosophical system that holds 'gnosis' as essential/fundamental in personal experience, and at least on one level, epistemologically speaking,...'individual experience' is the medium where truth is realized,...there is no other 'field' as it were, outside of 'knowing'. Therefore, 'knowledge' is key, but we should not assume that knowledge trumps the other essentials of 'faith' or 'charity', but perhaps I digress

I'm not sure how far we can claim any Gnostic influence in the NT scriptures unless those are specifically shown, beyond an observation or assumption that gnostics tended to give Jesus a divine status (although not necessarily as 'God Almighty'), in fact most Gnostics held Jesus to be a high celestial Aeon within the Plemora (the Fullness), so he was always held his station as a divine Son of the Living Father, who also joined with Mother Sophia in his descent, for they both work to restore divine knowledge to man, so in this sense Jesus gives his life (by descending in form) as a spiritual sacrifice for us, making known to us by such sacrifice of love the True God.

See: Ecclesia Gnostica (English Transmission, American branch).

It just so happens that Gnostics particularly had in their theology a teaching of 3 natures (spiritual, soulical & 'hylic'(material) ), and not particular persons, so that they paved the way by having a 'trinity', which the Orthodox later developed into their own Trinity of a 'Godhead' of 3 persons,...so that what they developed as the Orthodox Trinity is their own formation, since the main Gnostic traditions do NOT have a fundamental or creedal teaching on any Trinitarian God-head. A lot is also confused as to how the 'trinity' was influenced by earlier gnostic concepts by some early church fathers, and later distorted by equivocations along the way. So in some respects, the Gnostics are actually more 'Unitarian' in certain ways and similar to the Arians, in holding to Jesus subordination to the Father, being lower in the divine hierarchy, while it is the Orthodox Trinitarians who are the ones making or defining Jesus as being "eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father". (Nicene Creed).

A most excellent article is here - On the Gnostic Trinity (very informative).

 

[meshak]

I wish those who believe God is a Trinity were more logical about the subject.

I know your faith and you will be labeled as bigot soon by freelight.

Be aware of 1M1S and freelight. They are on the fence; they go anywhere for reputation.

 

[CherubRam]

Remember, I'm kinda 'gnostic' - we had our 'Gnostic Cosmology' thread and I do have my own social group the 'Esoteric School of Gnostic Wisdom',...however I use the term 'gnostic' in all-inclusive universal sense, so it can include gnostic elements in the more liberal classic gnostic schools of the first 3 centuries and within the traditional-orthodox Christian vein (Valentinianism, etc.). Today some scholars are even wondering if the term 'gnostic' should be applied since its meaning has become polemicized and splintered somewhat,...however I include its essential meaning of a religio-philosophical system that holds 'gnosis' as essential/fundamental in personal experience, and at least on one level, epistemologically speaking,...'individual experience' is the medium where truth is realized,...there is no other 'field' as it were, outside of 'knowing'. Therefore, 'knowledge' is key, but we should not assume that knowledge trumps the other essentials of 'faith' or 'charity', but perhaps I digress

I'm not sure how far we can claim any Gnostic influence in the NT scriptures unless those are specifically shown, beyond an observation or assumption that gnostics tended to give Jesus a divine status (although not necessarily as 'God Almighty'), in fact most Gnostics held Jesus to be a high celestial Aeon within the Plemora (the Fullness), so he was always held his station as a divine Son of the Living Father, who also joined with Mother Sophia in his descent, for they both work to restore divine knowledge to man, so in this sense Jesus gives his life (by descending in form) as a spiritual sacrifice for us, making known to us by such sacrifice of love the True God.

See: Ecclesia Gnostica (English Transmission, American branch).

It just so happens that Gnostics particularly had in their theology a teaching of 3 natures (spiritual, soulical & 'hylic'(material) ), and not particular persons, so that they paved the way by having a 'trinity', which the Orthodox later developed into their own Trinity of a 'Godhead' of 3 persons,...so that what they developed as the Orthodox Trinity is their own formation, since the main Gnostic traditions do NOT have a fundamental or creedal teaching on any Trinitarian God-head. A lot is also confused as to how the 'trinity' was influenced by earlier gnostic concepts by some early church fathers, and later distorted by equivocations along the way. So in some respects, the Gnostics are actually more 'Unitarian' in certain ways and similar to the Arians, in holding to Jesus subordination to the Father, being lower in the divine hierarchy, while it is the Orthodox Trinitarians who are the ones making or defining Jesus as being "eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father". (Nicene Creed).

A most excellent article is here - On the Gnostic Trinity (very informative).

Here is the oldest recorded document of Matthew 28:19.

"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:
Eusebius of Caesarea. 265 ? AD.– 337 ? AD.

Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. Eusebius informs us of Yahshua's actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19.

Quote: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all...

And again Eusebius for example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:

"But the rest of the disciples, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went to all nations to preach the good news, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name."


And again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:

"What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name?
Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke these words to his followers, and fulfilled it by that event, saying to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name."


The term "Godhead" is an English variant of the word "godhood" and was first introduced by John Wycliffe (1330-1384 C.E.) in English Bible versions as godhede.

The word "Godhead" is a translation of three different Greek words, theion (meaning "divinity, deity", # 2304 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Acts 17:29, and theiotēs (meaning "divinity, divine nature", # 2305 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Romans 1:20, and theotēs (meaning "deity", # 2320 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Colossians 2:9.

To translate three different Greek words as one word is deviously incorrect. This is not unlike having three different names for one street on a map (with the real name hidden), so that when a person used it, he wound up lost. Likewise of those who read Bibles with "Godhead" in it, thereby misleading a person that the trinity is "real".

 

[CherubRam]

If a person keeps ignoring the facts of a matter, then it is not the truth they are seeking.

 

[freelight]

If a person keeps ignoring the facts of a matter, then it is not the truth they are seeking.

A student of truth has nothing to lose in researching all the known facts of a matter, and will do all he can to learn such, using every faculty available, both within and without, to come to the closest approximation of truth, and then remain open to keep researching,.... retesting any hypothesis as long any shadow of doubt or more learning could be had on any given subject.

 

[CherubRam]

A student of truth has nothing to lose in researching all the known facts of a matter, and will do all he can to learn such, using every faculty available, both within and without, to come to the closest approximation of truth, and then remain open to keep researching,.... retesting any hypothesis as long any shadow of doubt or more learning could be had on any given subject.

What you say is true, but a person also needs to cut loose of error, such as mysticism. It is not of God.

 

[freelight]

Mystic Lover..............

Mystic Lover..............

What you say is true, but a person also needs to cut loose of error, such as mysticism. It is not of God.

We'll have to disagree on 'mysticism' - its simply a path of the soul seeking a deeper more intimate communion with 'God'.

Nothing inherently wrong with 'mysticism', there are wonderful mystics in both eastern and western religious traditions. Some of their works are cherished.

See: Christian Mysticism

I come from a lineage of mystics by spiritual association, most religionists do

Mysticism is popularly known as becoming one with God or the Absolute, but may refer to any kind of ecstasy or altered state of consciousness which is given a religious or spiritual meaning. It may also refer to the attainment of insight in ultimate or hidden truths, and to human transformation supported by various practices and experiences.

The term "mysticism" has Ancient Greek origins with various historically determined meanings. Derived from the Greek word μυω, meaning "to conceal", mysticism referred to the biblical liturgical, spiritual, and contemplative dimensions of early and medieval Christianity. During the early modern period, the definition of mysticism grew to include a broad range of beliefs and ideologies related to "extraordinary experiences and states of mind".

In modern times, "mysticism" has acquired a limited definition, with broad applications, as meaning the aim at the "union with the Absolute, the Infinite, or God". This limited definition has been applied to a wide range of religious traditions and practices, valuing "mystical experience" as a key element of mysticism.

- Mysticism (wiki)

A lover of God by definition, is a 'mystic' IMO. But you don't need to use the 'term',...but understanding the meaning is essential.

 

[CherubRam]

We'll have to disagree on 'mysticism' - its simply a path of the soul seeking a deeper more intimate communion with 'God'.

Nothing inherently wrong with 'mysticism', there are wonderful mystics in both eastern and western religious traditions. Some of their works are cherished.

See: Christian Mysticism

I come from a lineage of mystics by spiritual association, most religionists do



- Mysticism (wiki)

A lover of God by definition, is a 'mystic' IMO. But you don't need to use the 'term',...but understanding the meaning is essential.

People also believe the truth can be found in crystals, numerology, and astrology.

1 Timothy 6:20
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Or: Oppose so called false sciences.

 

[freelight]

People also believe the truth can be found in crystals, numerology, and astrology.

I do hope you understand what 'mysticism' is, in its entirety, all facets, to understand it, the etymology as well as misconceptions of it. Im using the term in its positive sense, in the context of deeper communion with God, the estoreic exploration of spiritual realities, divine mysteries. A 'mystic' is one who has directly experienced 'God' in some significant way, one who lives in the deeper world of the Spirit, conscious of God's Prensence.

See: Christian Mystics Explained

It is a false-correlation to affiliate crystals, astrology or numerology with 'mysticism' since those are artifacts or studies unto themselves, while mysticism is the study of the deeper realities of God, the hidden truths, the deeper mysteries. Im still am amazed that some here also think my 'spirituality' is more 'new agey' with crystals and such, many mis-correlations exist.

By the way,...minerals/rocks do each have their special properties, energetic qualities so there is nothing wrong with recognizing those in their various affections, I grew up as a rock hound of sorts,...rocks are wonderful. I think there is something to astrology, although I've not dived too deeply into it, and there are different schools, both western/eastern. There is also something about numerology that has significance within its own realm of meanings and relations (theomatics, divine arithmetic, etc.)....but again....mysticism may or may not be associated with these studies.

1 Timothy 6:20
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Or: Oppose so called false sciences.

Some schools of knowledge or subjects of study may be more or less useful

But back to 1 John 5:7, its a verse that doesn't really do much to prove the Trinity, but some choose to believe it is God's word. Any more thoughts in that direction?

 

[James Dalton]

Metaphysical Jesus

Metaphysical Jesus

I do hope you understand what 'mysticism' is, in its entirety, all facets, to understand it, the etymology as well as misconceptions of it. Im using the term in its positive sense, in the context of deeper communion with God, the estoreic exploration of spiritual realities, divine mysteries. A 'mystic' is one who has directly experienced 'God' in some significant way, one who lives in the deeper world of the Spirit, conscious of God's Prensence.

See: Christian Mystics Explained

It is a false-correlation to affiliate crystals, astrology or numerology with 'mysticism' since those are artifacts or studies unto themselves, while mysticism is the study of the deeper realities of God, the hidden truths, the deeper mysteries. Im still am amazed that some here also think my 'spirituality' is more 'new agey' with crystals and such, many mis-correlations exist.

By the way,...minerals/rocks do each have their special properties, energetic qualities so there is nothing wrong with recognizing those in their various affections, I grew up as a rock hound of sorts,...rocks are wonderful. I think there is something to astrology, although I've not dived too deeply into it, and there are different schools, both western/eastern. There is also something about numerology that has significance within its own realm of meanings and relations (theomatics, divine arithmetic, etc.)....but again....mysticism may or may not be associated with these studies.



Some schools of knowledge or subjects of study may be more or less useful

But back to 1 John 5:7, its a verse that doesn't really do much to prove the Trinity, but some choose to believe it is God's word. Any more thoughts in that direction?

Derived from the Greek meta ta physika ("after the things of nature"); referring to an idea, doctrine, or posited reality outside of human sense perception. In modern philosophical terminology, metaphysics refers to the studies of what cannot be reached through objective studies of material reality.

~ http://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/gengloss/metaph-body.html

All people that believe that God exists and is beyond our natural perception in presence and communication are metaphysical philosophers. This makes all who believe in God, Metaphysicians. The idea that God is everywhere that exists at one time is a metaphysical idea that cannot be labeled anything else. The people that believe God is able to be Father and Son aren't any more metaphysical than the people who say something different.

The questions that are fair to ask about the verse in question is if it even matters if it is there or not. The entire statement of God to the Hebrews was that He wanted to live or dwell with them. By the Bible, does God say He would never dwell with us or that He will dwell with us.

If the person that is metaphysically fearful that saying God has a true form that can be everywhere and in specific places a one time is uncomfortable believing that God is mighty enough to exist in a way that is beyond our comprehension, I wonder why such a person has gone half of the journey through the Bible and suddenly become afraid.

God brings out personal boldness and accomplishment. Does the Bible show that God can be many places at once and manifest Himself in a specific place at the same time? Does God desire to live inside of us as if we were His tabernacle? If that is true, wouldn't this make us far more than believers that God is in three places at once?

David said - “Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.”

Do some people believe God doesn't have an actual right hand that He reaches with?

Metaphysical Jesus?

 

[CherubRam]

I do hope you understand what 'mysticism' is, in its entirety, all facets, to understand it, the etymology as well as misconceptions of it. Im using the term in its positive sense, in the context of deeper communion with God, the estoreic exploration of spiritual realities, divine mysteries. A 'mystic' is one who has directly experienced 'God' in some significant way, one who lives in the deeper world of the Spirit, conscious of God's Prensence.

See: Christian Mystics Explained

It is a false-correlation to affiliate crystals, astrology or numerology with 'mysticism' since those are artifacts or studies unto themselves, while mysticism is the study of the deeper realities of God, the hidden truths, the deeper mysteries. Im still am amazed that some here also think my 'spirituality' is more 'new agey' with crystals and such, many mis-correlations exist.

By the way,...minerals/rocks do each have their special properties, energetic qualities so there is nothing wrong with recognizing those in their various affections, I grew up as a rock hound of sorts,...rocks are wonderful. I think there is something to astrology, although I've not dived too deeply into it, and there are different schools, both western/eastern. There is also something about numerology that has significance within its own realm of meanings and relations (theomatics, divine arithmetic, etc.)....but again....mysticism may or may not be associated with these studies.



Some schools of knowledge or subjects of study may be more or less useful

But back to 1 John 5:7, its a verse that doesn't really do much to prove the Trinity, but some choose to believe it is God's word. Any more thoughts in that direction?

[FONT=&quot]Mysticism Divination[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Numbers 22:7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The elders of Moab and Midian left, taking with them the fee for divination.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] When they came to Balaam, they told him what Balak had said. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Numbers 24:1[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Now when Balaam saw that it pleased the Lord to bless Israel, he did not resort to divination as at other times, but turned his face toward the wilderness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]None of the prophets of God were Mystic’s or Diviners. Only Balaam whom was a Pagan used divination for a short time. God chooses whom He will reveal any mysteries to.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Even though God would answer the high priest with the Urim[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and the Thummim, that does not mean there was anything mystical about it. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God speaks to whomever He pleases, whenever He pleases. There is no mysticism of divination involved.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]