ECT The historical false teaching about the sins of a believer

[musterion]

You say so

Paul said so, Rom 6:11.

Your new thread is waiting.

 

[Cross Reference]

Paul said so, Rom 6:11.

Your new thread is waiting.

Yes. Paul uses the word "reckon". Obviously they needed to hear that from him to some degree you are not recognizing, or don't want to. Why not ponder why he needed to say that rather than just off in another direction and in error?

While you are at it, why not reply to my "new" thread?

 

[Shasta]

Romans 8:1, Col 1:13, 2:13, 3:13 refute you. Begone, demon.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The kind of believer Paul is describing here is actively walking in the Spirit. The word "walk" is a Hebrew term meaning how a person conducts their life. It is not about a static legal position. With the Spirit's help this person's character reflects the righteous requirement of the law (expressed in love for God and man). The passage says this person is not serving the flesh so it cannot be applied either to a lapsed believer living in sin or an apostate who has denied the faith.

In the second scripture Paul is speaking to people who have been "delivered from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son" This is a believer who has experienced redemption and the forgiveness of sins Colossians 1:13.

Still, he does not present their status as unconditionally permanent. Paul knows that, though they had a "hope laid up for them in Heaven" (Colossians 1:5) he still had to pray for them so that they would have a knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding. This is necessary so they will not be deceived and deviate from the Way but rather so they will

10...walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God

He is very concerned about how they live their lives for, although they were "reconciled in his body of flesh by his death" and had the promise of being "presented blameless before Him" (Colossians 1:22) this final end was conditional.

Paul says they would be presented blameless before Him only

"23 IF indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister (Colossians 1:23)

We have to continue in our faith and not turn from Christ or deviate from the Gospel.

In the next chapter Paul says much the same thing

6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. (Colossians 2:6-7)

He wants them to be strong in their faith (Colossians 2:2-3) so they will not be deceived and deviate from the truth (Colossians 2:4,8). He develops this same theme in the following chapters, telling them how to put to death the Old Ways, to walk in the Spirit in order to stay in the center of God's will (Colossians 3:1-3, 5-9, 12-14)

Admonitions, exhortations and warnings are as necessary as comfort and assurance. If you live near a busy highway telling your child it is not potentially dangerous is not love.

 

[patrick jane]

How many times do I have to tell you ???
Paul was writing to the "faithful" saints in Ephesus!
But, you have absolutely NO idea what being faithful is!
It is definitely not climbing on the easy-grace train to heaven.

Jesus preached an obedience-holiness discipleship gospel unto eternal life.

Don't you know what a free gift is ? You can't do a thing to ensure your salvation except BELIEVE. :rapture:

 

[Cross Reference]

Don't you know what a free gift is ? You can't do a thing to ensure your salvation except BELIEVE. :rapture:

Redemption is a fact. Faith is needed for salvation.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The Messianic Kingdom contexts found in the Gospels and general epistles cannot be conflated with Pauline doctrine without creating unsolvable contradictions. So you're dilemma is to show where (1) Paul warned believers to remain/endure/persevere in obedient faith to ensure they aren't cast into the Lake of Fire, and then (2) balance those dire warnings against the many guarantees of the believer's eternal safety in the Body of Christ by simple virtue of what He did, not what the believer does.

You are not up to that challenge.

Luk 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
Luk 14:24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
Luk 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.


Have you forsaken all to follow Christ.


LA

 

[Shasta]

That's in Colossians 1:23, in a whole other context. You have no respect for God's Word.

Colossians is written to true believers who had experienced saving faith and reconciliation to God.

21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him...(Colossians 1:21-22)

God's desire for all believers is that they will ultimately stand before Him holy, blameless and above reproach. Will that be the case for all believers no matter what they do? If, when we were first reconciled to God we were forgiven for all sins past present and future and made holy for all time then this final end would be unconditionally guaranteed.

However, by using IF Paul makes the point that reaching this final destination is NOT unconditional but that it is predicated on our fulfilling certain conditions.

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creationg under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister (Colossians 1:23).

Just as we were saved by faith so we must continue to walk by faith. "Faith" means to "trust in, rely on, depend upon, have confidence in, believe in" Jesus Christ. Since Paul says "The" faith he means also the truths that comprise "The Faith" This is why we must not "shift from the hope of the gospel we have heard." We must continue to believe in Him and to believe the truth that saved us.

 

[DAN P]

We have a deadly enemy who really hates us … he wants us to be with him in hell.
To overcome him we have: the word of God, the Holy Spirit, and our authority over him.
This is how the NT describes our enemy:
“the ruler of this world” (John 12:31)
“the god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4)
“the whole world lies in the power of the evil one” (1 John 5:19)
“there is no truth in him ... he is a liar and the father of it” (John 8:44)
“the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9)

One of Satan’s masterpieces of deception is this widespread doctrine:
“A new believer in Christ has all of his sins washed away: past, present, and future!”
This thread will prove that this teaching is a very dangerous false doctrine.

“... call His name Jesus (Savior), for He will save His people from their sins.” (Matthew 1:21)
Okay great, but how and when? When one initially receives the Holy Spirit?
Or in some other way? Or at some other time?

Jesus was into heavy-duty warnings about committing sin …
• “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better
for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth
of the sea … If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you.
It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands
or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.” (Matthew 18:6-8)
• “He who overcomes (sin, etc.) shall inherit all things, and I will be his God
and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers,
sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake
which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:7-8)
• “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.” (John 8:34)

Paul warned the believers in Rome about habitual sinning …
“… that we should no longer be slaves of sin.” (Romans 6:6)
Notice that Paul does NOT say to these believers: We will no longer be slaves of sin!
They needed to choose to not be “(slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death” (Romans 6:16)

“Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin … For sin
shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.” (Romans 6:12-14)
Because of God’s grace, the believer has been given a new nature and the Holy Spirit.
Praise the Lord … the born-again believer NO longer has to be a slave of sin!
“Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.” (John 8:36)
Jesus has made believers “free indeed” … free to NO longer have to sin!
“… you were slaves of sin … And having been set free from sin
… But now having been set free from sin …” (Romans 6:17-22)

Now, here is where Paul goes into his exhortation and encouragement specialty!
The following are supposed to be true, and they are what Paul is truly hoping for:
“you became slaves of righteousness” Romans 6:18)
“having become slaves of God” Romans 6:22)
If this was really true, Paul would not be warning them so much about their sinning!

What was actually the situation is reflected in his instructions …
• “(present) your members as instruments of righteousness to God” Romans 6:13)
• “present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness” Romans 6:19)
Because they could CHOOSE to continue sinning, or they could CHOOSE to live righteously!
• “Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are
that one’s slave whom you obey, whether (a slave) of sin leading to (eternal) death,
or (a slave) of obedience leading to righteousness” (Romans 6:16)

The SIN LISTS declare that anyone practicing sin cannot inherit/enter the kingdom of God!
“Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath,
selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries,
and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that
those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21)
The other Sin Lists are: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Ephesians 5:3-6, Colossians 3:5-6, Revelation 21:7-8.

“… and sin, when it is full grown, brings forth (eternal) death.
Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.” (James 1:15-16)

We see all of these dire warnings directed at the churches simply because:
The believer’s future sins have NOT been covered by Jesus’ blood.

“… narrow is the gate and difficult (narrow, compressed, restricted) is the way
which leads to (eternal) life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:14)

Speaking of habitual unrepentant sinners … what sense does it make when
unbelievers sin and go to hell … while … believers sin and go to heaven?

Are all of the Scriptures above a pile of nonsense?
Or perhaps you can see that your sins are NOT covered and need to be taken care of!
In another thread, we will investigate how believers are called to deal with this critical problem.

Hi and how will you explain John 19:30 where the Holy Spirit writes trough Jojn , " IT IS FINISHED " which is in the PERFECT TENSE , and in the Passive Voice and in the Indicative Mood of FACT >

The Perfect Tense means the Jesus DIED once and can NEVER die on the Cross again !!~

This means that Jesus died for SINS , PAST , PRESENT and FUTURE , so yopur OP is obviously wrong !!

So you believe what the RCC teaches ?

dan p

 

[ZacharyB]

I understand what you are getting at but how then are kept saved? By works, no! By grace, certainly.
Remember what John teaches, he who sins habitually and wilfully does not know The Lord.
Your view smacks of a works kept salvation even if that is not what you mean.

My view is what Scripture teaches ... of course it's a works-kept salvation!
NO question about it.
James preached a lot about ... faith without works is dead (worthless).

2 types of "works" are required:
-- good works, good deeds
-- co-operating with the Holy Spirit ...
during the sanctification unto holiness process,
which includes obedience to Jesus' commandments
(He often said this would prove that you actually love Him!).

 

[ZacharyB]

Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:13 KJV -
Jesus Christ is the cure and the Holy Spirit seals us.

EVERYTHING written in Ephesians was written to FAITHFUL saints (1:1).

 

[ZacharyB]

Admonitions, exhortations and warnings are as necessary as comfort and assurance.
If you live near a busy highway telling your child it is not potentially dangerous is not love.

Kudos for taking the time and effort for posting our excellent points.

 

[revpete]

My view is what Scripture teaches ... of course it's a works-kept salvation!
NO question about it.
James preached a lot about ... faith without works is dead (worthless).

2 types of "works" are required:
-- good works, good deeds
-- co-operating with the Holy Spirit ...
during the sanctification unto holiness process,
which includes obedience to Jesus' commandments
(proving to Him that you actually love Him!).

If you believe you have a salvation that You keep by your own works it's only a matter of time until your lose it. I'm so grateful that I'm saved and kept by grace.
James means that a profession of faith without the lifestyle (walking in The Spirit) to back it up is just empty words. The good works that believers do are those that have been ordained:
Ephesians: 2. 10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[ZacharyB]

Colossians is written to true believers who had experienced saving faith and reconciliation to God.

Colossians was written only to FAITHFUL saints (1:2).

 

[ZacharyB]

James means that a profession of faith without the lifestyle (walking in The Spirit) to back it up is just empty words.

If thou thinkest that even 20% of "believers" in today's American churches
are "walking in the Spirit", thou is greatly mistakened!
Jesus deals with this in His rebukes to the Laodicean church (Rev 3),
which is exactly what/who the above churches are today.

 

[revpete]

If thou thinkest that even 20% of "believers" in today's American churches
are "walking in the Spirit", thou is greatly mistakened!
Jesus deals with this in His rebukes to the Laodicean church (Rev 3),
which is exactly what/who the above churches are today.

You call that an answer?!! Try again and this time please don't presume to tell me what I think, especially when it has nothing to do with the subject.

Pete

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Have you forsaken all to follow Christ.


LA

No. Neither have you. Neither has anyone on TOL.

 

[Cross Reference]

Colossians was written only to FAITHFUL saints (1:2).

. . . . with a warning to them!!! How come Paul would include such a warning??

 

[jamie]

I'm so grateful that I'm saved and kept by grace.

Saved and kept from what ... death? Are you immortal?

Actually, our spiritual salvation is held in trust by Jesus until it is bestowed on us at the first resurrection.

 

[Shasta]

Colossians was written only to FAITHFUL saints (1:2).

That goes without saying in my thinking since, if they were deviating from the Truth, Paul would have told them. I usually use the term "abiding" believers since it reminds me that it is from depending upon the Vine that I am enabled to walk with Him.

 

[Shasta]

Saved and kept from what ... death? Are you immortal?

Actually, our spiritual salvation is held in trust by Jesus until it is bestowed on us at the first resurrection.

You make a good point. There is a present tense salvation that is a down payment but there will be a future day when we will inherit eternal life providing we remain faithful to the Lord and to His message of salvation. Sometimes maybe in an effort to get our spiritual needs met in our daily lives teachers neglect to preach about the future tense salvation.