The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Evangelion]

Guys, you have to realise...

Guys, you have to realise...

...that Freak can't deal with this subject because his brain is too small.

 

[Ian Day]

Evangelion,

We don't read of Apollos being rebaptised. He was already fervent in the spirit .

The 12 Ephesians were "disciples" rather than "believers."

 

[Evangelion]

Umm...

Umm...

...what was it that they had to "explain to him more perfectly", do you think?

And why else would the baptism of John be mentioned?

 

[Freak]

It's amazing not one person dealt with my last post.

 

[Evangelion]

Uh, Freak?

Uh, Freak?

You didn't respond to our posts.

We're still waiting for the explanations, dude.

Remember, I had asked you:

• Freak, if you believe that baptism should be performed, yet you don't belive it's essential for salvation...
  
  ...why do you think we were commanded to perform it?
• What do you think it's there for?
• Why did the apostles keep baptising people when they became believers?
• Why is it that those who had already received the baptism of John, had to be baptised again after the ascension of Christ?

Better get busy with those answers, my lad...

 

[servantofChrist]

Kevin,

Please do not misunderstand me.

Baptism is commanded. But the issue is: Is baptism essential for salvation? The answer is a resounding NO!!!! Baptism cannot save you or anybody else. Jesus can save you however!

The Apostle Paul made it quite clear salvation is by faith alone. He writes: Having been justified by faith we can have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Freak, you got it wrong again! You said that Paul makes it clear that salvation is "by faith alone." But the verse you quoted to prove it - does NOT prove it! It says by "faith" - it does NOT say by faith ALONE! The word faith is used there in a comprehensive sense, which includes obedience. Freak, would you please ask yourself this... If one is saved because he believes IN Christ, then don't you think this also means that he who believes IN Christ will also believe WHAT HE SAYS? To believe in Christ as LORD over all, means that if He COMMANDS us to do something, we will obey His word IMPLICITLY - AS MANY COMMANDS AS HE HAS GIVEN.

Answer this, please - We are COMMANDED to believe in the Lord Jesus (Acts 16:31) to be saved. We are also COMMANDED - BY CHRIST HIMSELF - to be baptized (Matt. 28:19-20). How then can you possibly say that only one of those two commands is necessary for us to obey to be saved, when 1 Pet. 3:21 specifically states - "baptism also now saves us"?

You cite Rom 5:1 as proof that "faith alone" saves us. But, quite to the contrary, the only verse in the N. T. that contains the words, "faith alone," REFUTES everything you are saying. It is Jas. 2:24, which says, "You see that a man is justified by works, and NOT BY FAITH ALONE" (emphasis added).

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

You mentioned James as being evidence that we ought to have works in order to be saved. That is absurd and laughable.

Wow. I truly pity the person who says that Apostle James's words are "absurd and laughable". I truly do.

At what point will you have enough good works to be saved.

When you have obeyed all of the works commanded of us.

By what objective standard do you use to test this?

The Holy Bible.

By the way the Book of James was written to believers those whom already were saved by Christ.

And your point? Believing alone is not enough (He who believes AND is baptized will be saved), just like faith alone isn't enough. James is the one that says faith alone is dead, so if you have a problem with that, then take it up with James.

Yes, believers who know Christ should have good works. But good works does not save (Eph. 2:8-9).

It's funny how you tell me, and others alike to re-read your post, when you can't seem to grasp the text in my posts. Interesting. Show me, in any of my posts, where I said that works by itself would save somebody. Show me. Or show me, in any of my posts, that anything by itself will save you. I said it takes faith ---> AND <--- works. When James says that faith without works is dead, I'm going to believe him over you that says faith only will save me. Call me crazy.

There many verses in the Bible that speak relevant things about our salvation. Things like (paraphrasing here) "Unless you are born of water and Spirit you will not enter the kingdom of God", "unless you repent you will all perish", "He who believes and is baptized will be saved", "It is by grace you have been saved", "we are justified by faith".

Everyone of those pertains to our salvation, so which one is correct, because they all state something different? The simple answer is ALL of them, NOT just one (faith). What kind of faith do you think Romans 5:1 is talking about? Faith without works? Surely not, becuase James, who is just as inspired as Paul, said that faith without works is dead. No amount of spin doctering or perverting of the scriptures will change that simple fact.

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

It's amazing not one person dealt with my last post.

Besides the fact that I just dealt with it, as well as all of your other posts, I will have you know that I don't get off work until 7:00pm my time. I then try to spend some time with my loving wife and eat dinner and have a Bible study Monday through Thursday. Needless to say, my delayed responses are not because your posts are irrefutable. Not even remotely... I only have so much time.

 

[Kevin]

Ian,

I'm sure you will agree that baptism per se has no saving efficacy.

By itself, no. Belief and baptism, yes (Mark 16:16). Like I have been trying to tell Freak all this time, if anything is commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ, no matter what it is, then it is necessary for salvation because the Bible states very clearly that Jesus is the "author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. (Hebrews 5:9)

Now if one sits back and has all the faith in the world but does not obey His commandments, could that person be saved? Not according to the above verse or Rev. 22:14 "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life...".

...to refuse baptism is to reject the command of Christ. While such people may be saved...

I light of what I have just pointed out, that ones who do His commandments will have rights to the tree of life, how can you say that somebody can NOT do His commandments and still have rights to the tree of life?

 

[Kevin]

Ian,

If keeping God's commandments is required we are all lost. As, of course we are. Jesus came into the world to save sinners.

God knows full well that we aren't perfect. But He expects us, to the best of our imperfect ability, to keep His commandments. Knowing that we will stumble every now and then in sin, we have Jesus, who is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, to mediate for us. Praise God!

I noticed that you quoted:

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

You do realize that this is talking about the Mosaic law, don't you? Of course we aren't under that. That's the whole point of the book of Galations. The Galatian brethren were starting to go back to the old law of Moses by saying that circumsicsion was necessary. Paul is simply telling them that they aren't part of that any more since Christ has come.

Were Abraham & Rahab saved by keeping the Law? What were the works which showed their faith?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

What works did they perform you ask? The answer lies in the very verses that you quoted:

Abraham's work: He offered his son on the alter (verse 21). If he hadn't obeyed this command and done the work commanded, do you think that he would still have been called the Friend of God? No. Look how many times the Israelites disobeyed Gods commandments and He punished them repeatedly for it.

Rahab's work: Harboring the messengers and keeping them safe. If she didn't hide them then she would have been killed along with everybody else in the city when the Jews attacked the city. She was allowed to live because of the work that she did, as well as her belief in God.

 

[HopeofGlory]

You mentioned James as being evidence that we ought to have works in order to be saved. That is absurd and laughable. At what point will you have enough good works to be saved. By what objective standard do you use to test this? I would think perfection would do it. But the problem is wer're utterly sinful (Romans 3:23) we cannot attain perfection. By the way the Book of James was written to believers those whom already were saved by Christ. Yes, believers who know Christ should have good works. But good works does not save (Eph. 2:8-9).

If James had not lost his head in Acts 12 he would have agreed with Peter about the things Paul preached when Peter said....
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Pet. 3:16 (KJV)

 

[Jason]

Returning back to the header, The heretics message to the world: be baptized to be saved. I would like to make the following comments:

To instrust a believer that water baptism should be performed before he can claim eternal security, is in my opinion adding to the "Grace thru Faith" Gospel. A christian that thinks, in any way, that there are commands that he needs to fulfill in order to enjoy salvation, has moved from the ground of Grace to law.

Kevin:

But He expects us, to the best of our imperfect ability, to keep His commandments

This cannot be further from the truth. All expectations that God has, have been met in the person of Jesus Christ. He has instead judged our imperfect abilities as He included us in Christ on the cross. All attempts made by us to keep His commandment will fail. He has gone through great pains to prove that to us. No good thing dwells in the flesh. Instead "grow in grace". You have an inheritance with Christ apart from the wills and wiles of the flesh.

You do realize that this is talking about the Mosaic law, don't you?

Did you know that we have been freed from all forms of law. Because the law applies to a man as long as he lives, but when he dies he is free. And you have died with Christ.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Amen to that Jason!

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal. 3:23 (KJV)
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal. 3:24 (KJV)
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Gal. 3:25 (KJV)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Kevin

James does indeed speak of Abraham and Rahab being justified by works.

But we must determine whether this is in regard to being "justified before God"(Gal.3:11) or if it is in regard to being "justified before man"(Lk.16:15).

And Scripture definitely states that "if it be of works,then it is no more of grace"(Ro.11:6).

So if Abraham was justified by works,then that must refer to him being justified before man,and not before God:

"For if Abraham were justified by works,he hath something of which to glory,BUT NOT BEFORE GOD"(Ro.4:2).

God,Who searches the heart,does not need to judge a man by his works.A man´s works are but an outer manifestation of the faith within that man.

But man can only judge by appearances.A man is justified by works when judged by his fellow man,for man cannot read a man´s heart.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Ian Day]

Kevin,

I think you have achieved a remarkable thing on any TOL forum

Jerry & Ian & HopeofGlory are all in agreement, together with Jason.


Our works in no way make us acceptable to God. Our works are only acceptable because we are IN CHRIST:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Yes we do agree!

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the REMISSION OF SINS that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Rom. 3:27

As we can SEE it is not ... be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38.... which is a work!

 

[Kevin]

Ian,

Our works in no way make us acceptable to God. Our works are only acceptable because we are IN CHRIST:

And just how do you think we become "IN CHRIST"?

Galatians 3:27

27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Thank you for making my point for me . You yourself said that works are only acceptable because we are in Christ. And James said that it takes faith with works for faith to be alive. Well, if somebody isn't baptized (a work), they are not "in Christ", and haven't "put on" Christ. If you're not in Christ, you're not with the Father, and you certainly won't be in Heaven.

Ephesians 2:8 doesn't mean that works do not play a role in our salvation. That just saying that it takes the grace of God to save us, for we are all sinners and fall short of His glory. God's grace saves us, but there are commandments that must be obeyed (works) to obtain that saving grace. If we do not obey His commandments, Gods grace won't be upon us.

 

[Evangelion]

Exactly!

Exactly!

Couldn't have said it better myself, Kevin.

 

[Kevin]

HopeofGlory,

that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26

And the person who has ture belief in Jesus will keep is commandments, which require unconditional obedience. Why do you think Jesus says "If you love Me you will keep My commandments." (John 14:15). If a person says he has belief and doesn't keep His commandments, then he is the proud owner of a dead belief.

As we can SEE it is not ... be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38.... which is a work!

If those people hadn't obeyed Peter and gotten baptized, I can assure you that those people's sins wouldn't have been forgiven. When Jesus commands it in the great commission, He expects it to be obeyed. And there's no way that you can convince me that baptism doesn't play a role in the remission of sins, because when Romans 6:3-6 tells me that it will make our bodies of sin done away with, and I believe just that.

 

[Kevin]

Evangelion,

Thank you for the support, sincerely!