The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[c.moore]

Why is it when I ask you questions directly you don`t answer them , you try to justify your errors in doctrine by say :teaching of Jesus is MINOR compared to what it is that YOU teach.

That trick and play on words is played out.
You need to go through this thread and see it for yourself.
What you say and believe is nothing new we also talked , debated , proved, and taught this all over this thread with many people who misinterpreted the bible and Jesus Words like you.
try starting with my friend Freak first two pages here, so you can see the loop you are writting.

I have talked to Freak personally face to face about why he started this and why religious people are discieved by this conditional ritual doctrine.

It is trying to kick grace and the cross , and the blood of Jesus out the door and people are trying to get God to love them and accept them so they can complete the work which was already done on the cross.
maybe one day you might get out your loop of baptism and find the easy good way of Christ salvation message biblically.
ask the Spirit of God to fill you , and then let the Spirit of God teach you , and give you spiritual eyes of understanding, and be free in Christ and not free in water.

 

[rene]

I have answered EVERY QUESTION.

Either you have not really read what was written - or your building a strawman - yet again in the hopes to divert how YOUR TEACHING is opposite to the teaching of Jesus.

You go back to making BROAD STROKES with your paint brush - but ignore what YOU wrote and how it compares to the teaching found within the bible.

Frankly, what "Freak" says - matters ZIP when the end result is someone expounding a teaching that goes directly against the words of Jesus. That is what YOU have done.

WHY do you proclaim something opposite of what Jesus instructed to be done?

Mat 28:18 And having approached, Jesus spoke to them, saying, "All authority in heaven and on earth was given to Me.
Mat 28:19 "When you* have gone, make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to be observing all [things], as many as I commanded you*. And listen! I am with you* all the days, until the conclusion of the age! So be it!" [Gr. amen, and throughout NT].

Is one be a Christian who teaches opposite of what Jesus taught? a totally different doctrine than He instructed to be done?

 

[c.moore]

Rene

Did you read all the scriptures freak quoted toward the grace and salvation message without the need of getting wet??

Did you read the post about when freak also ask the question do righteous people go to hell like I ask you biblically???

You can see how no one wanted to answer the question like you did .

Also do you believe the whole bible or just the four gospel of Jesus and what he say`s???

 

[rene]

AGAIN - I have read the bible totally ]several times. AGAIN I answer.

The question that YOU avoid is WHY you can't seem to see the simple question *I* have asked - REPEATEDLY about what is a person that rejects a teaching of Jesus in favor of their own? Calls His teaching "minor"? WHY call yourself a "Christian" since "Christian" means to be 'in Christ' when you discount His teachings?

Mat 28:18 And Yeshua came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in Heaven and on Earth,
Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Mat 28:20 "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, even to the consummation of the age."

Mat 28:18 And having approached, Jesus spoke to them, saying, "All authority in heaven and on earth was given to Me.
Mat 28:19 "When you* have gone, make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to be observing all [things], as many as I commanded you*. And listen! I am with you* all the days, until the conclusion of the age! So be it!" [Gr. amen, and throughout NT].

Notice the word "command in verse 20. Not a 'suggestion'. Not a 'do it if you want to but not important'. No 'minor' there. "COMMAND".

"End of the world" is how it is translated in KJV.

Literally "consummation of the age". "The current age is meant; and the consummation is coincident with the second coming of Christ, after the Gospel shall have been proclaimed throughout the world. “The Saviour's mind goes no farther; for after that, evangelizing work will cease. No man, after that, will need to teach his neighbor, saying, 'Know the Lord'� (Jer31:34) (Morison “On Matthew�).

Baptism and the need to follow that teaching does not end till Jesus returns - opposite of what YOU teach.

I don't give a hoot who you can get to 'support' your claim when that support is opposite of the teachings of Jesus which reflect the will of God. Since you support a teaching that is opposite of God's expressed will as taught by Jesus - time for YOU to do some soul searching and really find out what it is that you follow since it isn't His teachings.

What is it that YOU believe in since it isn't what Jesus taught? What is more important to you - the teaching that is opposite of what Jesus taught - or following Jesus and His teachings?

 

[rene]

The meaning of the word "command" in Matthew 28:20:

entellomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to order, command to be done, enjoin
Part of Speech: verb

Strong's:
en-tel'-lom-ahee
to enjoin: - (give) charge, (give) command(-ments), injoin.

 

[c.moore]

Baptism and the need to follow that teaching does not end till Jesus returns - opposite of what YOU teach.

So we need also a ritual of getting wet to be saved and get sakvation??

 

[rene]

What part of the words of Jesus do you not understand?? WHY call yourself a “Christian� if you are not going to follow His teaching but instead mock it??

Mat 28:18 And having approached, Jesus spoke to them, saying, "All authority in heaven and on earth was given to Me.
Mat 28:19 "When you* have gone, make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to be observing all [things], as many as I commanded you*. And listen! I am with you* all the days, until the conclusion of the age! So be it!" [Gr. amen, and throughout NT].

You ridicule not my teaching - but the teaching of Jesus. What you promote, what you attempt to make fun of and call “minor� is a teaching of Jesus for what was to be done. Baptism is part of His teaching. It is His instructions. Instructions that YOU mock.

Pro 10:8 The wise in heart accepteth commands, And a talkative fool kicketh.

Pro 10:8 If you have good sense, you will listen and obey; if all you do is talk, you will destroy yourself.

Pro 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, And whoso is hearkening to counsel is wise.

Pro 12:15 Fools think they know what is best, but a sensible person listens to advice.

 

[greatdivide46]

How do we get into Christ?

At what point is the blood of Christ applied to the sinner?

What are the scriptures to back up your answers?

Just curious.

 

[rene]

Those that are in Christ follow Him and His teachings which are the reflection of the will of God.

When the "blood is applied" is not addressed within scripture as to a specific point and time set for every believer.

As to scriptures - vs. wasting bandwidth, take a look at the previous pages.

 

[greatdivide46]

Originally posted by rene

Those that are in Christ follow Him and His teachings which are the reflection of the will of God.

Yes, absolutely.

When the "blood is applied" is not addressed within scripture as to a specific point and time set for every believer.

I think it is. See Romans 6:3-5

As to scriptures - vs. wasting bandwidth, take a look at the previous pages.

Thanks for your good advice. I should have known that :doh:

 

[rene]

Originally posted by greatdivide46 I think it is. See Romans 6:3-5

For those that don't know what the verses states, copy it here for ease:

Rom 6:3 Or do you* fail to understand that we, as many as were baptized [or, immersed] into Christ Jesus, were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore, we were buried together with Him through the baptism [or, immersion] into death , so that even as Christ was raised up from [the] dead through the glory of the Father, so also we should walk about [fig., conduct ourselves] in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have become planted together [fig., united] [with Him] in the likeness of His death, certainly we also will be [in the likeness] of the resurrection;
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our former person was crucified together [with Him], so that the body of sin shall be made useless [or, pass away], [so that] we [are] no longer to be serving as a slave to sin.

I have seen many use that verse to suggest that - and I will not dispute that it does say it

- BUT -

It makes no mention of the "blood" as you asked about. It does tho state the case that as Jesus taught, that they followed in their sharing of the gospel which baptism was an important part (else why did Peter command that it be done).

Looking at the case of Cornelius (Acts 10), which I will admit was an unusual setting esp. since he and his household would be the very first of the Gentile converts, one is hard pressed to say when it was that the actual application of blood was applied. It is clear that Paul commanded that baptism in water take place. But it is also clear that the Holy Spirit worked thru them prior to being baptized.

Could it be that God did it because He knew what Peter would command to be done and knew that they would follow thru with the teaching that Jesus instructed to be followed? Bible doesn't say. Many suggestions can be made - but none supported by what is stated within the bible.

It is because of this - and other points as well - that I replied as I did.

Thank you for the pleasant exchange. You not only asked questions - you actually REPLIED to the comments made! :thumb:

 

[greatdivide46]

Originally posted by rene

It makes no mention of the "blood" as you asked about. It does tho state the case that as Jesus taught, that they followed in their sharing of the gospel which baptism was an important part (else why did Peter command that it be done).

You are correct that these verses in Romans make no mention of the "blood." It is an assumption on my part that since "all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death" and since there was blood involved in the death of Christ that when we are baptized into His death we necessarily come in contact with His blood at that point. But I know I can get in trouble by assuming too much

Looking at the case of Cornelius (Acts 10), which I will admit was an unusual setting esp. since he and his household would be the very first of the Gentile converts, one is hard pressed to say when it was that the actual application of blood was applied. It is clear that Paul commanded that baptism in water take place. But it is also clear that the Holy Spirit worked thru them prior to being baptized.

Do you think that Cornelius and his household were saved when they manifested the gifts of the Holy Spirit or were they saved when they were baptized in water?

Could it be that God did it because He knew what Peter would command to be done and knew that they would follow thru with the teaching that Jesus instructed to be followed? Bible doesn't say. Many suggestions can be made - but none supported by what is stated within the bible.

Yeah, maybe.

It is because of this - and other points as well - that I replied as I did.

And I appreciated your reply

Thank you for the pleasant exchange. You not only asked questions - you actually REPLIED to the comments made! :thumb:

Gee, thanks!

 

[rene]

Originally posted by greatdivide46 Do you think that Cornelius and his household were saved when they manifested the gifts of the Holy Spirit or were they saved when they were baptized in water?

The only thing that I can offer is a guess - because the scriptures do not make it known. When doing study on it - the 'exact moment' - such isn't addressed by scripture. I can find no place within scripture that makes such a point. I know mankind likes to make much out of it - but such isn't found within scripture. Many divisons can be traced to those that like to jump and claim their version of 'biblical truth' when such is not stated within the bible. When discussing the bible - best to keep to the bible vs. opinion.

 

[c.moore]

What part of the words of Jesus do you not understand?? WHY call yourself a “Christian� if you are not going to follow His teaching but instead mock it??

you still are going around your religious loops.

I don´t live by the OT rules and legalism, i am righteous because of Christ alone and not religous works or laws.

this is why we need the Holy Spirit in us so we can obey God and Christ by the Spirit so we can be sons and daughter for real.

Do you think water baptismo is not a work??

 

[rene]

You still are playing at your version of being religious with the buffet approach to the gospel.

You don't live by the OT rules - and you sure are ignoring the words of Jesus.

So what "spirit" guides one that does such as that?

Do you not understand that if baptism is a work or not that Jesus instructed it to be done?

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by rene

You still are playing at your version of being religious with the buffet approach to the gospel.

You don't live by the OT rules - and you sure are ignoring the words of Jesus.

So what "spirit" guides one that does such as that?

Do you not understand that if baptism is a work or not that Jesus instructed it to be done?

NO!
Then my friend it is not grace , and this is why I as if it is work or not and that make a great difference.

The Spirit should be in you to guide you so you can be a son indeed.

 

[rene]

So - you CONTINUE to ignore the words of Jesus to follow your own way.....

Call it anything that you want - but for someone to do that and think that such is what Jesus desires of those that follow Him - by NOT following His teachings that reflect the will of God - is someone that needs some one on one help with understanding the bible and the will of God.

 

[greatdivide46]

Originally posted by rene

The only thing that I can offer is a guess - because the scriptures do not make it known. When doing study on it - the 'exact moment' - such isn't addressed by scripture. I can find no place within scripture that makes such a point. I know mankind likes to make much out of it - but such isn't found within scripture. Many divisons can be traced to those that like to jump and claim their version of 'biblical truth' when such is not stated within the bible. When discussing the bible - best to keep to the bible vs. opinion.

Well, I kinda think that Cornelius and his household weren't saved until they were baptized in water.

I don't see a necessary connection between the miraculous gifts of the Spirit and the baptism of the Spirit. And Peter seems to indicate that we are baptized by the Spirit when we are baptized in water (Acts 2:38).

 

[greatdivide46]

Originally posted by c.moore

Do you think water baptismo is not a work??

Yes, I think water baptism is not a work.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by greatdivide46

Yes, I think water baptism is not a work.

Main Entry: 1work
Pronunciation: 'w&rk
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English werk, work, from Old English werc, weorc; akin to Old High German werc work, Greek ergon, Avestan var&zem activity
1 : activity in which one exerts strength or faculties to do or perform something: a : sustained physical or mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective or result b : the labor, task, or duty that is one's accustomed means of livelihood c : a specific task, duty, function, or assignment often being a part or phase of some larger activity
2 a : energy expended by natural phenomena b : the result of such energy <sand dunes are the work of sea and wind> c : the transference of energy that is produced by the motion of the point of application of a force and is measured by multiplying the force and the displacement of its point of application in the line of action
3 a : something that results from a particular manner or method of working, operating, or devising <careful police work> <clever camera work> b : something that results from the use or fashioning of a particular material <porcelain work>
4 a : a fortified structure (as a fort, earthen barricade, or trench) b plural : structures in engineering (as docks, bridges, or embankments) or mining (as shafts or tunnels)
5 plural but singular or plural in construction : a place where industrial labor is carried on : PLANT, FACTORY
6 plural : the working or moving parts of a mechanism <works of a clock>
7 a : something produced or accomplished by effort, exertion, or exercise of skill <this book is the work of many hands> b : something produced by the exercise of creative talent or expenditure of creative effort : artistic production
8 plural : performance of moral or religious acts <salvation by works>
9 a : effective operation : EFFECT, RESULT <wait for time to do its healing work> b : manner of working : WORKMANSHIP, EXECUTION
10 : the material or piece of material that is operated upon at any stage in the process of manufacture
11 plural a : everything possessed, available, or belonging <the whole works, rod, reel, tackle box, went overboard> <ordered pizza with the works> b : subjection to drastic treatment : all possible abuse -- usually used with get <get the works> or give <gave them the works>
- at work 1 : engaged in working : BUSY esp : engaged in one's regular occupation 2 : having effect : OPERATING, FUNCTIONING
- in the works : in process of preparation, development, or completion
- in work 1 : in process of being done 2 of a horse : in training
- out of work : without regular employment : JOBLESS
synonyms WORK, LABOR, TRAVAIL, TOIL, DRUDGERY, GRIND mean activity involving effort or exertion. WORK may imply activity of body, of mind, of a machine, or of a natural force <too tired to do any work>. LABOR applies to physical or intellectual work involving great and often strenuous exertion <farmers demanding fair compensation for their labor>. TRAVAIL is bookish for labor involving pain or suffering <years of travail were lost when the house burned>. TOIL implies prolonged and fatiguing labor <his lot would be years of back-breaking toil>. DRUDGERY suggests dull and irksome labor <an editorial job with a good deal of drudgery>. GRIND implies labor exhausting to mind or body <the grind of the assembly line>.
synonyms WORK, EMPLOYMENT, OCCUPATION, CALLING, PURSUIT, Métier, BUSINESS mean a specific sustained activity engaged in especially in earning one's living. WORK may apply to any purposeful activity whether remunerative or not <her work as a hospital volunteer>. EMPLOYMENT implies work for which one has been engaged and is being paid by an employer <your employment with this firm is hereby terminated>. OCCUPATION implies work in which one engages regularly especially as a result of training <his occupation as a trained auto mechanic>. CALLING applies to an occupation viewed as a vocation or profession <the ministry seemed my true calling>. PURSUIT suggests a trade, profession, or avocation followed with zeal or steady interest <her family considered medicine the only proper pursuit>. Métier implies a calling or pursuit for which one believes oneself to be especially fitted <acting was my one and only métier>. BUSINESS suggests activity in commerce or the management of money and affairs <the business of managing a hotel>.


Looks like energy and movements to me.