The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
rene
New member
Case closed? Sure you want it that way considering that you are discounting a teaching of the one that you make claim to follow?
The one thing that has become abundantly clear to me while reading this thread is that you have much to learn about what Jesus taught and following that teaching.
Not one person within the NT shows a believer that has not been baptized - yet you seem to want to see it as unimportant, nothing to do within the life of a believer.
All the scriptures that you use for your claims of faith alone - are written to those that already believe and have followed in the teaching about being baptized. We see within the bible that all those that come to believe are baptized.
If an empty act - why do all the believers follow this teaching within the bible? If an empty act - why do all within the NT make sure that they follow this teaching?
What I see you doing is taking something clearly shown within the bible and trying to suggest something about it that isn't within the bible, making less of it than clearly is shown within the bible.
Again I state the question then that presents itself is just how is one to reflect that faith? what steps need to be taken because of this faith? Is faith alone enough? (answer to that one is within the many verses I already placed here - and the answer is *no*)
Show ONE PERSON within the NT that is called a believer and wasn't baptized.
The one thing that has become abundantly clear to me while reading this thread is that you have much to learn about what Jesus taught and following that teaching.
Not one person within the NT shows a believer that has not been baptized - yet you seem to want to see it as unimportant, nothing to do within the life of a believer.
All the scriptures that you use for your claims of faith alone - are written to those that already believe and have followed in the teaching about being baptized. We see within the bible that all those that come to believe are baptized.
If an empty act - why do all the believers follow this teaching within the bible? If an empty act - why do all within the NT make sure that they follow this teaching?
What I see you doing is taking something clearly shown within the bible and trying to suggest something about it that isn't within the bible, making less of it than clearly is shown within the bible.
Again I state the question then that presents itself is just how is one to reflect that faith? what steps need to be taken because of this faith? Is faith alone enough? (answer to that one is within the many verses I already placed here - and the answer is *no*)
Show ONE PERSON within the NT that is called a believer and wasn't baptized.
Freak
New member
Look, I'm trying to keep the focus on Jesus being the savior not water. Why you insist on putting water on the same level of Jesus is quite bizarre. We worship Jesus not water.
Water baptism is a minor issue. Water is merely symbolic, it has no redeeming quality to it. Jesus, however, is God and is quite capable of saving the soul. Get it?
It is not empty, it does possess symbolic value. My concern is to remember that Jesus is the author and perfector of our faith not water. Righteousness comes through Him not water. Get it?
I think my case that Jesus is the Savior and not the water is crystal clear. My focus is on Jesus being the Savior not water.
Does righteousness come through a person or through water? Answer the question.
The apostle Paul clearly taught that baptism was a minor issue...For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
There were many believers that were referred to as believers that may not have been baptized...
Paul, an apostle--sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead-- and all the brothers with me,
To the churches in Galatia:
Can you prove to me, from Scripture, that those members of the church in Galatia were water baptized?
rene
New member
How about you answer any of the questions I have asked of you - as in name even ONE PERSON within the NT that was not baptized. Even now, your still posting about how it is a "minor" act of a believer after I posted many verses showing where it was not only taught by Jesus but followed by those believers during the time the new testament was being lived and written.
How one can take something clearly taught by Jesus and suggest that it is "minor"?
How one can take something clearly taught by Jesus and suggest that it is "minor"?
Freak
New member
There were many believers that were referred to as believers that may not have been baptized...
Paul, an apostle--sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead-- and all the brothers with me,
To the churches in Galatia:
Can you prove to me, from Scripture, that those members of the church in Galatia were water baptized?
rene
New member
The Christian is one who "receives Christ Jesus as Lord" (Colossians 2:6). This is a powerful statement, as it involves two related claims. In the first place, it declares the believer's loyalty and commitment to Jesus Christ. For someone to confess that "Jesus Christ is Lord" is to declare that Jesus is the Lord of his or her life. To recognize that Jesus is Lord is to seek to do his will.
Jesus proclaimed His will about baptism.
Either you agree with His words and see the importance of those words - or go opposite and claim that they are "minor" as you claim.
Christ commanded baptism in Matt 28:19, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them...." It is to be the normal course of action as we are going. Baptism should be an integrated part of what we do in our ministry.
The natural reaction when a person was saved in the New Testament, was to be baptized. It should be the natural thing in our own generation as well. If anyone reading this is not baptized, then I would encourage you to take that step of obedience as soon as you can.
Jesus proclaimed His will about baptism.
Either you agree with His words and see the importance of those words - or go opposite and claim that they are "minor" as you claim.
Christ commanded baptism in Matt 28:19, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them...." It is to be the normal course of action as we are going. Baptism should be an integrated part of what we do in our ministry.
The natural reaction when a person was saved in the New Testament, was to be baptized. It should be the natural thing in our own generation as well. If anyone reading this is not baptized, then I would encourage you to take that step of obedience as soon as you can.
JustAChristian
New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How Is Man Justified?
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Freak,
You amaze me! You claim to think! Briefly, tell me someone who was saved by "faith only" in the New Testament.
JustAChristian :angel:
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Read it again....
Not
By
faith
Only
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How Is Man Justified?
Freak,
You amaze me! You claim to think! Briefly, tell me someone who was saved by "faith only" in the New Testament.
JustAChristian :angel:
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Read it again....
Not
By
faith
Only
rene
New member
Evidently, you have not read within a bible this passage that I shall share with you from several translations:
Gal 3:27 For as many as were baptized [or, immersed] into Christ put on [or, clothed yourselves with] Christ. (Analytical Literal Translation)
Gal 3:27 For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ. (Literal Translation of the Holy Bible)
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
From Vincent' Word Study:
See on Mat 28:19. Not in relation to Christ (Meyer), but into spiritual union and communion with him. Comp. Rom_6:3 (see note); 1Co 12:12, 1Co 12:13, 1Co 12:27. Paul here conceives baptism, not as a mere symbolical transaction, but as an act in which believers are put into mystical union with the crucified and risen Lord. Comp. Rom 6:3-11.
(You) put on Christ (Χριστὸν ἐνεδύσασθε)
The phrase only here and Rom 13:14. The figurative use of the verb occurs only once in the Gospels, Luk 24:49, but often in Paul, 1Co 15:53; Eph 4:24; Col 3:10, Col 3:12, etc. Chrysostom (Hom. xiii. on Ephesians) remarks, “We say of friends, one puts on the other, meaning thereby much love and unceasing fellowship.” In lxx quite often in the figurative sense, as Jdg 6:34; 1Ch 12:18; 2Ch 6:41; Job 8:22; Job 29:14; Psa 108:1-13 :18. Similarly in class., Plato, Rep. 620, of Thersites putting on the form of a monkey: Xen. Cyr. ii. 1, 13, of insinuating one's self into the minds of hearers. So the Lat. induere: Cicero, De Off. iii. 10, 43, to assume the part of a judge: Tac. Ann. xvi. 28, to take on the part of a traitor or enemy. To put on Christ implies making his character, feelings and works our own. Thus Chrysostom: “If Christ is Son of God, and thou hast put him on, having the Son in thyself and being made like unto him, thou hast been brought into one family and one nature.” And again: “He who is clothed appears to be that with which he is clothed.”
Barnes:
As have been baptized into Christ - Or “unto” (εἰς eis) - the same preposition which in Gal_3:24 is rendered unto) Christ. That is, they were baptized with reference to him, or receiving him as the Saviour.
Unless your going to attempt to suggest that the letter was written to them with comments that had nothing to do with them at all?? SUch a suggestion will require scriptural ref. for such a claim.
Gal 3:27 For as many as were baptized [or, immersed] into Christ put on [or, clothed yourselves with] Christ. (Analytical Literal Translation)
Gal 3:27 For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ. (Literal Translation of the Holy Bible)
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
From Vincent' Word Study:
See on Mat 28:19. Not in relation to Christ (Meyer), but into spiritual union and communion with him. Comp. Rom_6:3 (see note); 1Co 12:12, 1Co 12:13, 1Co 12:27. Paul here conceives baptism, not as a mere symbolical transaction, but as an act in which believers are put into mystical union with the crucified and risen Lord. Comp. Rom 6:3-11.
(You) put on Christ (Χριστὸν ἐνεδύσασθε)
The phrase only here and Rom 13:14. The figurative use of the verb occurs only once in the Gospels, Luk 24:49, but often in Paul, 1Co 15:53; Eph 4:24; Col 3:10, Col 3:12, etc. Chrysostom (Hom. xiii. on Ephesians) remarks, “We say of friends, one puts on the other, meaning thereby much love and unceasing fellowship.” In lxx quite often in the figurative sense, as Jdg 6:34; 1Ch 12:18; 2Ch 6:41; Job 8:22; Job 29:14; Psa 108:1-13 :18. Similarly in class., Plato, Rep. 620, of Thersites putting on the form of a monkey: Xen. Cyr. ii. 1, 13, of insinuating one's self into the minds of hearers. So the Lat. induere: Cicero, De Off. iii. 10, 43, to assume the part of a judge: Tac. Ann. xvi. 28, to take on the part of a traitor or enemy. To put on Christ implies making his character, feelings and works our own. Thus Chrysostom: “If Christ is Son of God, and thou hast put him on, having the Son in thyself and being made like unto him, thou hast been brought into one family and one nature.” And again: “He who is clothed appears to be that with which he is clothed.”
Barnes:
As have been baptized into Christ - Or “unto” (εἰς eis) - the same preposition which in Gal_3:24 is rendered unto) Christ. That is, they were baptized with reference to him, or receiving him as the Saviour.
Unless your going to attempt to suggest that the letter was written to them with comments that had nothing to do with them at all?? SUch a suggestion will require scriptural ref. for such a claim.
Freak
New member
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So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
It is a work of faith not water.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How Is Man Justified?
So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
It is a work of faith not water.
JustAChristian
New member
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Freak,
I thought we were getting somewhere but I guess I was wrong. I see you choose not to accept my challenge. Baptism saves! Faith saves! The gospel saves! All these save but only when followed to the conclusion of the Lord's commandments.
JustAChristian :angel:
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How Is Man Justified?
Freak,
I thought we were getting somewhere but I guess I was wrong. I see you choose not to accept my challenge. Baptism saves! Faith saves! The gospel saves! All these save but only when followed to the conclusion of the Lord's commandments.
JustAChristian :angel:
JustAChristian
New member
Proving Someone Was Baptized!
Proving Someone Was Baptized!
Freak,
The whole of anything is the sum of its parts. You will have to agree to that or deny mathmatics. On the day of Pentecost, Peter preached that those saved on that day must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. The Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Only baptized believers were then added to the church. This is the same in every church for salvation is in Christ and is consistant with the whole of anything is the sum of its parts conclusion.
JustAChristian
Proving Someone Was Baptized!
Freak,
The whole of anything is the sum of its parts. You will have to agree to that or deny mathmatics. On the day of Pentecost, Peter preached that those saved on that day must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. The Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Only baptized believers were then added to the church. This is the same in every church for salvation is in Christ and is consistant with the whole of anything is the sum of its parts conclusion.
JustAChristian
Freak
New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How Is Man Justified?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How Is Man Justified?
:dizzy:
Jesus saves not water baptism.
Scripture states...
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Now, the questions for you:
1. Is water or Jesus mentioned as being the author of our faith?
2. Does water perfect our faith in light of this passage?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How Is Man Justified?
:dizzy:
Jesus saves not water baptism.
Scripture states...
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Now, the questions for you:
1. Is water or Jesus mentioned as being the author of our faith?
2. Does water perfect our faith in light of this passage?
Freak
New member
rene, please stay with the program, please.
The Scripture states:
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
The emphasis is on Jesus. Did water ever bestow righteousness upon anyone? Or did righteousness come from a living God-the Lord Jesus?