Jerry,
Francisco,
Scripture declares that man´s will is not involved at all in the born again experience.When someone believes the gospel in their heart they are born of God.Therefore,the pagan idea that the sinner is born of God when he submits to the rite of water baptism cannot be true.
Scripture only says that we are reborn not of our will, but of God. It never says
'man's will is not involved at all in the born again experience'. You are adding those words to the verse through your preconceived notion about baptism.
You seem to think that it is by the "will" that one "repents" or "accepts" the Lord Jesus.
Well,are you not aware that you cannot "will" yourself to believe anything which you do not "believe" to be true?It is a fact that when a man "believes" anything that his "belief" is not a result of his "will",but instead his "belief" is based on "evidence".
That's NOT what I said. Here is exactly what I said: 'So
it's NOT by our will, but by the
Grace of God that we choose to submit to water baptism to begin with.' If the Spirit prompts us to do something, and we obey, then it is not by our will that we do it but because we were 'called' to do it.
And "faith" cometh by hearing,and hearing by the word of God"(Ro.10:17).
The "gospel" contains the "evidence" that "while we were sinners,Christ died for us" and that "when we were enemies,we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son,much more,being reconciled,we shall be saved by His life"(Ro.5:8,19).
When the sinner hears and believes the gospel,he believes it based on the evidence,and not because of the fact that he "wills" himself to believe it.
When the sinner hears and believes the gospel, it is NOT because he 'believes it based on the evidence' as you say. It is because he or she has received the grace necessary to believe it.
You've contradicted yourself with this statement Jerry. In one place you say we believe because of the 'evidence', as if you can will yourself to believe based on information. Then in another place you say, 'Well,are you not aware that you cannot "will" yourself to believe anything which you do not "believe" to be true?' Your statements are as contradictory and convoluted as your theology.
And once he believes,then it is by man´s "will" that he decides to obey any or all of God´s commands.This is called the "obedience of faith"(Ro.16:26).
But this "obedience" follows "faith".
But we can not
will to obey. Remember Jerry, nothing good can happen except by the grace of God. So it can rightly be said that 'by the grace of God' we choose to obey the Lord's commands. So when we respond to God's command to be baptized, it is not by our will but by the grace given us through the Holy Spirit that we obey.
Next,you say that John 3:4-5 is a verse that teaches that submitting to the rite of water baptism is absolutely essential for one to be born of God.
However,there is no evidence that these words refer to what is called Christian baptism as commanded by the Lord at Matthew 28:19.
Jerry, I gave you pages of evidence! First, the verse does say we must be 'born of water and the spirit' to enter the kingdom of God. Then I showed you between 20 and 30 quotations from writers who spoke Greek as there native language, that all agree this verse speaks specifically of water baptism. You have not even attempted to refute this evidence except for accusing Clement of Alexandria and Cyril of Jerusalem of using 'pagan' words like 'enlightened' and 'sealed'. Of course you gave no evidence these words were only used by pagans, because there is of course no such evidence and your whole argument was baseless.
From the context of the Nicodemus sermon we can see that the Lord Jesus said that Nicodemus should know what the words in regard to the baptism of "water and of the Spirit" were in reference to.He said:
"Art thou a teacher of Israel,and knowest not these things?"(Jn.3:10).
So the Lord said that Nicodemus should know about the meaning of the baptism "of water and of the Spirit". The Lord was speaking about some distinctive truth contained in the OT Scriptures,which should have been familiar to any teacher of Israel.
LOL. Jerry, I know you're not that dense. Why are you putting on this act?
The verse you refer to is John 3:10, towards the end of Jesus discussing the need to be born again with Nicodemus. Let's take a look at this verse in context:
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?
Maybe you don't realize it Jerry, but verse 8 speaks directly of something Nicodemus, as a 'teacher if Israel' should have known. It is a reference to the book of Ecclesiastes, specifically chapter 11 verse 5:
5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.
If you are using a KJV bible you should see the reference to Eccles. 11:5 right under John 3:8. Of course Nicodemus should realize that the Spirit can work in ways that are unfathomable for him, so he should not have been surprised that we must be 'born of the Spirit'.
The Lord´s words are not in regard to what is called "Christian baptism",because this baptism had not yet been instituted.Even the Lord´s Apostles knew nothing about it,so how as it possible that Nicodemus did?
The only baptism then known was that of John the Baptist,and that baptism was expressly contrasted with the Spirit´s work (Mt.3:2).Therefore,it becomes obvious that the Lord´s words in regard to the baptism of "the water and of the Spirit" could not possibly be in reference to "Christian baptism".
Jesus was explaining what would become Christian baptism to Nicodemus. And Jesus had already laid the foundation for this teaching by giving us the example of Christian baptism when He was baptized by John the Baptist in the Jordan. Jesus went into the WATER, and as He came out of the WATER, the Holy Spirit descended on Him in the form of a dove. Jesus had to begin the teaching on baptism somewhere, so for you to argue 'The Lord´s words are not in regard to what is called "Christian baptism",because this baptism had not yet been instituted' is an invalid argument.
However,we know that the words in regard to this baptism of "water and of the Spirit" is a "type" of a Spiritual reality.We know this by the Lord´s words to Nicodemus:
"If I have told you earthly things,and you believe not,how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things"(Jn.3:12).
A "type" is a "earthly" or "temporal" thing that is used to illustrate a "heavenly",or "spiritual" reality.The Lord´s words were spoken in terms using "earthly" symbols in order to illustrate a "spiritual truth".
You have still not refuted me on a single issue Jerry. How can you say 'we know that the words in regard to baptism...' when you have not proven any of these things you 'know'?
Of course baptism is an 'earthly' thing! Why would one need to be baptized in heaven? But the 'type', or I should actually say 'types', existed long before Jesus taught Nicodemus. One of the 'types' was Noah in the ark. Peter tells us this is a type of the 'baptism' THAT SAVES US. Another type is that of Naamen, who was cured by dipping himself seven times in the Jordan. And the last 'type' of our Christian baptism, the clearest example of all, was Jesus being baptized in the Jordan and 'receiving' the Holy Spirit as it descended in the form of a dove.
Consider what Tertullian said about this 'earthly' thing called baptism:
"Baptism itself is a corporal act by which we are plunged into the WATER, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from our sins"
Yes baptism is a corporal or 'earthly' act, but it's effect is spiritual in that we receive the Holy Spirit in baptism, just as Jesus Christ demonstrated for us.
And the "earthly" things came from the OT. As Augustine said,"The New is in the Old contained;The Old is by the New explained."
And I agree totally with Augustine's statement, just as I agree with his statement when he said:
The WATER, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the SPIRIT effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, BOTH regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).
So now that it has been determined that the words of the Lord in regard to the birth of "water and of the Spirit" are not in reference to "Christian baptism,it s necessary to go back to the OT to see what Nicodemus should have familiar with.And that is reserved for a latter time.
But again we can see that you have yet been able to provide even one verse that states that submitting to the rite of water baptism is necessary for alvation.
I'm sure you proved something in your own mind, but the rest of us don't see things through the same man-made preconceptions you look through. No Jerry, you have proven nothing and have still not refuted the copious evidence that John 3:4-5 speaks specifically of the necessity of water baptism.
Why don't you give up the convoluted man-made theology you follow, and follow the theology proclaimed by the Word of God?
God Bless,
Francisco