The grammar of Gal 2 and the folly of 2P2P

[john w]

OH, if it is not two headed, why have two? why not just say there is one gospel, and be biblically honest?

There you go...

=why not just say there is one piece of good news


Clueless.

 

[musterion]

He has special needs.

 

[Interplanner]

Going for the false premise twofer, I see. Clumsy and autistic. I'm going to start calling you IEP.

So when push comes to shove, you are just dishonest.

 

[musterion]

So when push comes to shove, you are just dishonest.

John/Christ/Peter: water baptism was required. Not optional. God commanded it. No baptism = no salvation.

Paul: water baptism not required, only baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ counts with God.

Not the same news.

 

[God's Truth]

John/Christ/Peter: water baptism was required. Not optional. No baptism = no saved. God commanded it.

Paul: water baptism not required, only baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ counts with God.

Not the same news.

Paul himself was water baptized and water baptized others.

Paul preached water baptism.

1 Corinthians 10:1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.


Did you read that? Paul was speaking about water baptism.

Romans 6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.


Paul is describing water baptism. The believer comes to make the pledge to God, to die to the sins of the world; so now standing in the water the believer falls back, as if dead; then, the believer goes under the water, buried; then, the believer rises up out of the water, raises up to live a new life.

We were "buried" with him through BAPTISM into death and RAISED from the dead...raised to live through Christ.

Just because you claim Paul taught against Jesus and the other apostles does NOT make is so.

This is about Paul speaking the message and Apollos doing the water baptizing.

1 Corinthians 3:6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow

 

[musterion]

Paul himself was water baptized and water baptized others.

True, very early in his ministry.

But toward the end of it, Eph 4:5, 1 Cor 12:13.

Not the same baptism. A spiritual baptism completely without water or the hands of other humans.

A later revelation from Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

True, very early in his ministry.

But toward the end of it, Eph 4:5, 1 Cor 12:13.

Not the same baptism. A spiritual baptism completely without water or the hands of other humans.

A later revelation from Christ.

There is one baptism in which we receive Christ and are put in him; however, that does not mean you should not make the ceremonial pledge to God, even if you are by yourself and submerge yourself.

God uses symbols often and that is what water baptism is. It is your time to pledge to God you will die to the sins of the world and live for him.

It is not too much unlike a wedding pledge.

God likes ceremonies; have you heard of the wedding supper of the Lamb?

 

[musterion]

There is one baptism in which we receive Christ and are put in him; however, that does not mean you should not make the ceremonial pledge to God, even if you are by yourself and submerge yourself.

That's a fleshly work you (and 99.5% of Christendom for 2,000 years) will use to "prove" you're saved beyond simply believing the Gospel of grace, which is all God asks. And that's why you're damned.

 

[God's Truth]

That's a work you use to "prove" you're saved beyond simply believing the Gospel of grace, which is all God asks. And that's why you're damned.

Water baptism does not prove anything.

I have been water baptized at 2 months of age and then again as an adult in another false denomination.

Obeying God whatever He says is what we have to do, and He says to get water baptized.

 

[musterion]

Water baptism does not prove anything.

Then it's not necessary and one can be forgiven and justified without it.

He says to get water baptized.

Why, if salvation by faith ALONE and water baptism proves nothing?

 

[Interplanner]

John/Christ/Peter: water baptism was required. Not optional. God commanded it. No baptism = no salvation.

Paul: water baptism not required, only baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ counts with God.

Not the same news.

NOpe, Christ already talked of another baptism of death/sacrifice.

 

[God's Truth]

Then it's not necessary and one can be forgiven and justified without it.



Why, if salvation by faith ALONE and water baptism proves nothing?

It is proof to God that you want to obey Him.

It has nothing to do with other people.

It is about a pledge between God and you.

 

[Interplanner]

"Faith alone" sometimes means just a person's faith as though it had no object and without any other expression.

But faith is only as good as its object. The object of faith is either Christ's accomplishment or other things, including our own faith.

So 'faith alone' can be an unhelpful expression sometimes.

 

[God's Truth]

"Faith alone" sometimes means just a person's faith as though it had no object and without any other expression.

But faith is only as good as its object. The object of faith is either Christ's accomplishment or other things, including our own faith.

So 'faith alone' can be an unhelpful expression sometimes.

Only faith is needed to be cleaned by Jesus---we only have to have faith that Jesus' blood cleans us.

That means we believe Jesus' blood cleans us and no one has to clean themselves by a circumcision of the flesh, a dietary law, observing special days, doing various external washings, and sacrificing animals.

Those are the works Paul was speaking of that no longer save.

Paul was NOT saying we are saved by faith alone and not of works/obedience to to Jesus.

We have to have faith that Jesus' blood cleans us OF THE SINS WE REPENT OF DOING.

People misunderstand Paul about faith and works.

What do you think the scripture means where we are told people misunderstand Paul?!

They misunderstand Paul about faith and no works.

Peter says that people misunderstand Paul, and then Peter warns us to obey. See 2 Peter 3:16, and 17.

If that is not what people misunderstand Paul about---then what??!

Faith alone is DEAD and it cannot save anyone.

Jesus saves us all on his own---he chooses whom he saves---and he chooses those who obey him and repent of their sins.

See Acts 5:32, among many.

 

[john w]

Paul himself was water baptized and water baptized others.

Paul preached water baptism.

1 Corinthians 10:1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.


Did you read that? Paul was speaking about water baptism.

Romans 6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.


Paul is describing water baptism. The believer comes to make the pledge to God, to die to the sins of the world; so now standing in the water the believer falls back, as if dead; then, the believer goes under the water, buried; then, the believer rises up out of the water, raises up to live a new life.

We were "buried" with him through BAPTISM into death and RAISED from the dead...raised to live through Christ.

Just because you claim Paul taught against Jesus and the other apostles does NOT make is so.

This is about Paul speaking the message and Apollos doing the water baptizing.

1 Corinthians 3:6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow

More slop. Paul was not describing water baptism in Romans. No one is "buried in water,"


"Baptism is the outward symbol seen by man....." and all that jazz.

"Traditional" Christianity has it backward, since they refuse to rightly divide this word of truth. After being justified by being baptized into Christ, and being new creatures in Christ, with eternal life, having been raised, ascended, and seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus(up), "religion" wants to "bury" you(down) you under the element of water , which, as part of the earth, is under a curse, by being dunked until the tadpoles know your social security number.


Water baptism, throughout the OT/NT, was never viewed as "Death/Burial/ & Resurrection."


Baptism - changing the condition, identity, of something because of an action that was performed.; placing or putting something into another substance and performing an action so that it will change the state of the item from its previous condition-it's condition, status, or identity is changed!

Baptism- the idea of being placed into something (the Lord Jesus Christ's death in this dispensation), and an action is performed, so that when we come out we are changed from our previous condition. It is all about our identification; God takes what we are in Adam and places us into the Lord Jesus Christ, and God's action (crucifying the old man) changes our condition- now we are" in Christ." We are no longer what we were in Adam, because God has done something to us and in us. Our previous condition has been changed because of what God has done:

" Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." Colossians 2:12KJV

Buried with Him-not like Him.

Details.

" Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: {6} Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Romans 6:3-6 KJV
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________
Again:Baptism- 'to change the nature, identity, condition, status, and to IDENTIFY something with its purpose.. For example, Homer, in his book "The Odyssey", desribes the tempering of a sword. When the hot metal was plunged into water, the sword was "baptized" , and thus the change in the condition of the sword was from soft to hard metal. As another example, when a piece of cloth was placed into a dye vat for coloring, there was a change in the condition of the piece of cloth upon emergence from the vat-it had a new color.

Where is the water?

" But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. " Mt. 20:22-23 KJV

"And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized with shall ye be baptized". Mk 10:38-39 KJV

"And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:" Luke 12:50 KJV
__________________________________________________ __________

People assume baptism means "water". I can show you other passages where there is no water. There was no water on the cross. The basic idea is IDENTIFICATION for the purpose of change in condition/identity/status. Did you know that in biblical times, to dye a piece of cloth, you would "baptize" it, "overwhelm" it, "cover" it, in a vat of dye. The cloth would now have a "change in condition", a new "identity". The element was dye here. Look at:

"And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea...." 1 Cor. 10:2 KJV

They were identified with Moses. Also note Exodus 14:16- 22 KJV="dry ground", Exodus 14:29 KJV,Exodus 15:19 KJV="dry land". No water! The Egyptians were wet, not the Israelites.

The basic idea behind the concept of baptism is identification=placing or putting something into another substance, performing an action, with the resulting purpose of a change in the state of the item from its previous condition=change in identity, change in condition, change in status.

Symbol? No one was buried in water. The Lord Jesus Christ was not buried in a liquid grave, but in rocks, and buried when dead. In contrast, the "dry baptismal" candidate is buried as soon as he has received life!

Watch the slop that ensues from this "god"'suntruth biblical illiterate.

 

[God's Truth]

More slop. Paul was not describing water baptism in Romans. No one is "buried in water,"


"Baptism is the outward symbol seen by man....." and all that jazz.

"Traditional" Christianity has it backward, since they refuse to rightly divide this word of truth. After being justified by being baptized into Christ, and being new creatures in Christ, with eternal life, having been raised, ascended, and seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus(up), "religion" wants to "bury" you(down) you under the element of water , which, as part of the earth, is under a curse, by being dunked until the tadpoles know your social security number.


Water baptism, throughout the OT/NT, was never viewed as "Death/Burial/ & Resurrection."


Baptism - changing the condition, identity, of something because of an action that was performed.; placing or putting something into another substance and performing an action so that it will change the state of the item from its previous condition-it's condition, status, or identity is changed!

Baptism- the idea of being placed into something (the Lord Jesus Christ's death in this dispensation), and an action is performed, so that when we come out we are changed from our previous condition. It is all about our identification; God takes what we are in Adam and places us into the Lord Jesus Christ, and God's action (crucifying the old man) changes our condition- now we are" in Christ." We are no longer what we were in Adam, because God has done something to us and in us. Our previous condition has been changed because of what God has done:

" Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." Colossians 2:12KJV

Buried with Him-not like Him.

Details.

" Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: {6} Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Romans 6:3-6 KJV
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________
Again:Baptism- 'to change the nature, identity, condition, status, and to IDENTIFY something with its purpose.. For example, Homer, in his book "The Odyssey", desribes the tempering of a sword. When the hot metal was plunged into water, the sword was "baptized" , and thus the change in the condition of the sword was from soft to hard metal. As another example, when a piece of cloth was placed into a dye vat for coloring, there was a change in the condition of the piece of cloth upon emergence from the vat-it had a new color.

Where is the water?

" But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. " Mt. 20:22-23 KJV

"And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized with shall ye be baptized". Mk 10:38-39 KJV

"And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:" Luke 12:50 KJV
__________________________________________________ __________

People assume baptism means "water". I can show you other passages where there is no water. There was no water on the cross. The basic idea is IDENTIFICATION for the purpose of change in condition/identity/status. Did you know that in biblical times, to dye a piece of cloth, you would "baptize" it, "overwhelm" it, "cover" it, in a vat of dye. The cloth would now have a "change in condition", a new "identity". The element was dye here. Look at:

"And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea...." 1 Cor. 10:2 KJV

They were identified with Moses. Also note Exodus 14:16- 22 KJV="dry ground", Exodus 14:29 KJV,Exodus 15:19 KJV="dry land". No water! The Egyptians were wet, not the Israelites.

The basic idea behind the concept of baptism is identification=placing or putting something into another substance, performing an action, with the resulting purpose of a change in the state of the item from its previous condition=change in identity, change in condition, change in status.

Symbol? No one was buried in water. The Lord Jesus Christ was not buried in a liquid grave, but in rocks, and buried when dead. In contrast, the "dry baptismal" candidate is buried as soon as he has received life!

Watch the slop that ensues from this "god"'suntruth biblical illiterate.

You have not disproved anything that I said.

Water baptism does symbolize getting buried, buried in the water.

We raise up to live a new life in Christ. That is scripture.

You can get water baptized before, during, or after being given the Holy Spirit.

Water baptism is a symbol, a ceremony, not much unlike a wedding ceremony when people make the pledge to each other before God.

1 Peter 3:20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.

That scripture does say water baptism is a symbol. Read how Peter says Noah and his family were saved through water, and that this water (the water of baptism that Christians do) is symbolic of the baptism (of the Spirit) that now saves you. IT IS A PLEDGE to God.

Paul spoke about the water in the sea and the cloud concerning the time with Moses, and Peter speaks of the time of water with Noah. The water of the Christians time is water baptism. It is literal water about something SYMBOLIC.

 

[john w]

You have not disproved anything that I said.

As predicted: more slop that ensues from this "god"'suntruth biblical illiterate.

Water baptism does symbolize getting buried, buried in the water.

No, it doesn't-slop. No one is buried in water.

We raise up to live a new life in Christ. That is scripture.

And? Irrelevant-NADA to do with water.


Slop.

You can get water baptized before, during, or after being given the Holy Spirit.

Irrelevant slop.

Water baptism is a symbol, a ceremony, not much unlike a wedding ceremony when people make the pledge to each other before God.

1 Peter 3:20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.

That scripture does say water baptism is a symbol. Read how Peter says Noah and his family were saved through water, and that this water (the water of baptism that Christians do) is symbolic of the baptism (of the Spirit) that now saves you. IT IS A PLEDGE to God.

Not, it is not a symbol, not a pledge, in this dispensation-no water. Spirit baptism....identification.

Slop. Clueless.

Paul spoke about the water in the sea and the cloud concerning the time with Moses, and Peter speaks of the time of water with Noah. The water of the Christians time is water baptism. It is literal water about something SYMBOLIC.

Slop. Baptized unto Moses-identified....Children of Israel were dry.....Egyptians wet.


Colossians 2 KJV

11 in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Like circumcision.....no water.

With him, not like him.


Clueless slop.

 

[God's Truth]

And? Irrelevant-NADA to do with water.


Slop.




Irrelevant slop.


Not, it is not a symbol, not a pledge, in this dispensation-no water. Spirit baptism....identification.

Slop. Clueless.




Slop. Baptized unto Moses-identified....Children of Israel were dry.....Egyptians wet.


Colossians 2 KJV

11 in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Like circumcision.....no water.

With him, not like him.


Clueless slop.

Even Jesus Christ was water baptized.

 

[DAN P]

Even Jesus Christ was water baptized.

Hi and you do know what the following means , #1 BAPTO / DIP #2 DIVERS WASHING / BAPTIMOS in Heb 9:10 means #3 And Rom 6:L3 BAPTIZO /PLACED means or Eph 4:5 BAPTIZO / BAPTIMAS really means #4 Or what Rom 6:4 BAPTIZO / BAPTISMA really means OR will you explain 1 Cor 10:2 , how millions of Jew were BAPTIZED into Moses , the Cloud and the SEA 11

dan p

 

[God's Truth]

Hi and you do know what the following means , #1 BAPTO / DIP #2 DIVERS WASHING / BAPTIMOS in Heb 9:10 means #3 And Rom 6:L3 BAPTIZO /PLACED means or Eph 4:5 BAPTIZO / BAPTIMAS really means #4 Or what Rom 6:4 BAPTIZO / BAPTISMA really means OR will you explain 1 Cor 10:2 , how millions of Jew were BAPTIZED into Moses , the Cloud and the SEA 11

dan p

I do know what it means. I will continue to try to explain it to you since you are interested. It is about literal water being symbolic.