ECT The Gospel Proper

[Jerry Shugart]

By the way, I love "Things That Differ" by C.R. Stam. His book and several publications by the Berian Bible Society really helped me a lot when I was new to this material. Stam's book is not as good as Bob Enyart's, "The Plot" but it is a lot less expensive! It's hard to beat free! (I think that Stam was what they call a "Hyper-Dispensationalist", AKA an Acts 28 Dispensationalist and so he was really hard core against both water baptism and the Lord's Supper.)

Clete

Clete, in the book Things that Differ we can find Pastor Stam's basic teaching in regard to his ideas of how a sinner obtained salvation in other dispensations. He writes:

"We have no illusions as to man's utter inability to please God by works as such in any age. Man has always been saved essentially by the grace of God, through faith. There could be no other way to be saved" [emphasis added] (Stam, Things That Differ, [Berean Literature Foundation, Twelfth Printing, 1985], p.15).​

In other words, according to him the only thing that is "essential" in order to be saved is faith. But then he says:

"Note carefully that while God refuses works for salvation today, He required them under other dispensations" [emphasis added] (Ibid., p.21).​

The word "require" means "to demand as necessary or essential" (Merriam-Webster Online).

Therefore Stam is saying that in other dispensations works were "essential" in order to be saved. That idea directly contradicts what he said earlier, that only "faith" is essential for salvation.

If "works" were essential for salvation during other dispensations then it cannot be said that salvation during those dispensations was "essentially by the grace of God through faith."

Paul makes it plain that those who lived under the law were saved by faith through grace:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Beginning with Stam's mistake Mid Acts dispensationalism started down a road which is contradicted by the Scriptures and departed from the sound teaching of the giants of MAD, Sir Robert Anderson and J.C. O'Hair.

 

[Clete]

Clete, in the book Things that Differ we can find Pastor Stam's basic teaching in regard to his ideas of how a sinner obtained salvation in other dispensations. He writes:

"We have no illusions as to man's utter inability to please God by works as such in any age. Man has always been saved essentially by the grace of God, through faith. There could be no other way to be saved" [emphasis added] (Stam, Things That Differ, [Berean Literature Foundation, Twelfth Printing, 1985], p.15).​

In other words, according to him the only thing that is "essential" in order to be saved is faith. But then he says:

"Note carefully that while God refuses works for salvation today, He required them under other dispensations" [emphasis added] (Ibid., p.21).​

The word "require" means "to demand as necessary or essential" (Merriam-Webster Online).

Therefore Stam is saying that in other dispensations works were "essential" in order to be saved. That idea directly contradicts what he said earlier, that only "faith" is essential for salvation.

If "works" were essential for salvation during other dispensations then it cannot be said that salvation during those dispensations was "essentially by the grace of God through faith."

Paul makes it plain that those who lived under the law were saved by faith through grace:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Beginning with Stam's mistake Mid Acts dispensationalism started down a road which is contradicted by the Scriptures and departed from the sound teaching of the giants of MAD, Sir Robert Anderson and J.C. O'Hair.

I really couldn't care less about your take on Stam's wording and whatever contrived contradictions you think you see.

The fact is that under the dispensation of law, it was trust AND obey. Faith alone apart from works could not save you as it does today. (James 2)

The fact that salvation was offered at all is by the grace of God and so, even under the law, one was indeed saved because of grace but it was not until Paul's gospel that one was saved by grace through faith APART from works. (Romans 4)

Clete

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The fact is that under the dispensation of law, it was trust AND obey. Faith alone apart from works could not save you as it does today. (James 2)

Then tell me what the Lord Jesus meant when He said the following to those who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

And if you want to cite the epistle of James you should actually start in the first chapter when he wrote the following:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).​

Where are the "works" there, my friend?

And what about the Jews who lived under the law and did believe in the Lord Jesus?:

"Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God" (Jn.1:13).​

These Jews who lived under the law were "born of God" when they believed in His name. Where are the "works" there?

The fact that salvation was offered at all is by the grace of God and so, even under the law, one was indeed saved because of grace but it was not until Paul's gospel that one was saved by grace through faith APART from works. (Romans 4)

In Romans 4 you need to look at what is said about David, who lived under the law:

"However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 'Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered'" (Ro.4:5-7).​

That is why just a few verses later Paul says the following about those who lived under the law:

"Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Clete, "works" and "grace" are mutually exclusive--"Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation" (Ro.4:4).

So if works are required for salvation for anyone then it cannot be said that eternal life is a gift, but Paul says that it is indeed a gift:

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Ro.6:23).​

That explains why the Lord Jesus said the following to the Jews who lived under the law and were saved by grace through faith:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Clete, if you think that "works" of any kind are compatible with "grace" then you don't have a clear understand of salvation on the principle of "grace."

 

[Clete]

Works and grace are only mutually exclusive under a dispensation of grace.

However, grace MUST be added to a dispensation of law because it is not possible for anyone to follow the law perfectly (other than God Himself, of course).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Works and grace are only mutually exclusive under a dispensation of grace.

However, grace MUST be added to a dispensation of law because it is not possible for anyone to follow the law perfectly (other than God Himself, of course).

So the Lord Jesus was in error when He said the following to the Jews who lived under the law?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

And was He is error when He told the following to the Jews who lived under the law?:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Was He wrong when He said the following to a Jewess who lived under the law:

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

After saying that He asked, "Believest thou this?"

How would you answer that question, Clete?

 

[Danoh]

Works and grace are only mutually exclusive under a dispensation of grace.

However, grace MUST be added to a dispensation of law because it is not possible for anyone to follow the law perfectly (other than God Himself, of course).

The man is a cherry picker. Plain and simple.

This...

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

...goes hand in hand with this...

5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

And what did He say through Paul about verse 24, there, as to Israel's Heart Based BEHAVIORAL failure?

Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Note how verse 29 in the following, also from Romans 2, is exactly what the Lord said in John 5:44.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

They were keeping the Law merely as an outward profession - pew warmers, if you will.

Which was an issue of faith...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Clearly, the issue as to Israel was works done from a circumcised heart (faith towards God, or because God said to keep the Law).

Deuteronomy 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Which also why Christ called their works mere outward profession, there, in John 5.

While, elsewhere He asserted...

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The least in the kingdom?

Kicked out of it for their fake works, notice...

5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

What is this about exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees?

Once more, the issue of mere pew warming...

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

Okay, Lord, got it. Now, what about what YOU ALSO meant about their being expected to exceed said so called fake righteousness?

Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Anyone who knows anything about the OT knows that His speaking there of a gift and and altar, refers not only to animal sacrifices under the Law, Leviticus 6, but from a right heart attitude towards God (faith), or the absence of the mere outward the show, that had often caused the LORD to assert in His Wrath that He'd had more than His fill of Israel's faith-less sacrifices.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 1:12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Moving on...

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Yep, a qualifier. A standard by which to measure what having believed on Him as an Israelite at that time, actually constituted - the Law's Conditional "if...then" Works Based Principle.

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

What was that about James as to what works had allowed him to even be a partake of the following?

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

That would have been this...

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

That's right, John's required submission to Israel's water ritual meet for repentence that the remission of their sins was conditioned on...

Matthew 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

But as you well know, Clete, battles with cherry pickers are battles one will never win.

Op - there's Jerry - out in his backyard picking some more cherries.

:chuckle:

Nevertheless, Romans 5:6-11.

 

[Clete]

The man is a cherry picker. Plain and simple.

This...

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

...goes hand in hand with this...

5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

And what did He say through Paul about verse 24, there, as to Israel's Heart Based BEHAVIORAL failure?

Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Note how verse 29 in the following, also from Romans 2, is exactly what the Lord said in John 5:44.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

They were keeping the Law merely as an outward profession - pew warmers, if you will.

Which was an issue of faith...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Clearly, the issue as to Israel was works done from a circumcised heart (faith towards God, or because God said to keep the Law).

Deuteronomy 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Which also why Christ called their works mere outward profession, there, in John 5.

While, elsewhere He asserted...

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The least in the kingdom?

Kicked out of it for their fake works, notice...

5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

What is this about exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees?

Once more, the issue of mere pew warming...

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

Okay, Lord, got it. Now, what about what YOU ALSO meant about their being expected to exceed said so called fake righteousness?

Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Anyone who knows anything about the OT knows that His speaking there of a gift and and altar, refers not only to animal sacrifices under the Law, Leviticus 6, but from a right heart attitude towards God (faith), or the absence of the mere outward the show, that had often caused the LORD to assert in His Wrath that He'd had more than His fill of Israel's faith-less sacrifices.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 1:12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Moving on...

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Yep, a qualifier. A standard by which to measure what having believed on Him as an Israelite at that time, actually constituted - the Law's Conditional "if...then" Works Based Principle.

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

What was that about James as to what works had allowed him to even be a partake of the following?

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

That would have been this...

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

That's right, John's required submission to Israel's water ritual meet for repentence that the remission of their sins was conditioned on...

Matthew 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

But as you well know, Clete, battles with cherry pickers are battles one will never win.

Op - there's Jerry - out in his backyard picking some more cherries.

:chuckle:

Nevertheless, Romans 5:6-11.

Jerry has been on my ignore list so long I've forgetten why.

I don't understand how anyone with a clear mind can think that obedience wasn't required during the previous dispensation. People where killed by God for picking up sticks on the Sabbath and God was on His way to kill Moses for having failed to circumcize his son. Not to mention, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24)

Excellent post, by the way!

Clete

 

[musterion]

I don't understand how anyone with a clear mind can think that obedience wasn't required during the previous dispensation.

Can't recall anyone saying it wasn't, but some of us are accused of saying it isnt expected today.

 

[Right Divider]

Jerry has been on my ignore list so long I've forgetten why.

I don't understand how anyone with a clear mind can think that obedience wasn't required during the previous dispensation. People where killed by God for picking up sticks on the Sabbath and God was on His way to kill Moses for having failed to circumcize his son. Not to mention, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24)

Excellent post, by the way!

Clete

I think that this gets back to your point (which I also emphasize) that you cannot understand the forest if you just keep looking at a few trees.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Op - there's Jerry - out in his backyard picking some more cherries.

There goes Danoh again perverting the meaning of the words of the Lord Jesus.

According to you even though the Lord Jesus said the following to the Jews who lived under the law their "believing" was not enough to result in any of those Jews receiving eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

You say that the Lord's words there go hand and hand with this:

5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?​

What about the Jews who lived under the law who believed Moses and also believed the Lord Jesus? Tell me why "believing" was not sufficient to bring them eternal life even though the Lord told them that it will?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Of course the Jews who lived under the law received eternal life when they belireved His words, as witnessed by what He told them in the following verse:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

According to your ideas His words were not sufficient to bring spiritual life to the Jews who lived under the law because it took "works" as well as faith.

All you do is cherry pick which words of the Lord Jesus you will believe and which ones you will deny. Let me remind you that those who are justified by faith are the ones who "believe God":

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Ro.4:3).​

 

[Clete]

Can't recall anyone saying it wasn't, but some of us are accused of saying it isnt expected today.

There was a time when people were justified by faith plus works and now we are justified by faith apart from works.

Jerry thinks that the way it is now is the way it has always been.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry has been on my ignore list so long I've forgetten why.

I don't understand how anyone with a clear mind can think that obedience wasn't required during the previous dispensation. People where killed by God for picking up sticks on the Sabbath and God was on His way to kill Moses for having failed to circumcize his son. Not to mention, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24)

Do you think that a Jew with true faith would openly break the Sabbath? Don't you know that a Jew received eternal life the moment when they believed (Jn.5:24)? Don't you know that the Lord Jesus said that all those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28)? Don't you know that the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law that those who saw Him and believed on Him have eternal life and that He will raise them up the last day (Jn.6:40)?

As far as what James wrote in the second chapter it must be considered in light of what he wrote in the first chapter:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

That matches what Peter taught:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever....And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:13,25).​

Paul makes it plain that Abraham was not justified BEFORE GOD by His works:

"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God" (Ro.4:2).​

The argument James was making was about what one person can know about another person's faith:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:18).​

Sir Robert Anderson writes the following on this subject:

"Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man. In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life" [emphasis added] (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], pp.160-161).​

Charles C. Baker and Cornelius Stam established the Milwaukee Bible Institute, and Baker understood that Abraham was not justified by "works" in the eyes of God, writing that "James speaks of Abraham being justified by works 'when he offered up his son Isaac', which happened 49 years after his justification by faith as mentioned by Paul (Genesis 15:6; Genesis 22). Paul makes it plain in Romans 4:1 and 2 that the justification by works of which James speaks, was not a justification before God, and James states that it was the fulfilling of the faith which he already had (James 2:23). Grace is the source of justification (Rom-ans 3:24); Christ's blood is the ground (Romans 5:9); faith is the means (Romans 3:28); and works are the evidence (James 2:21). As the tree must have life before it can bear fruit; so Abraham received life when justified by faith alone, and 49 years later that faith bore the fruit, of which James speaks " [emphasis added] (Baker, HOW WAS ABRAHAM JUSTIFIED BY WORKS?).

Now that I have answered your verse from the book of James please answer the question the Lord Jesus asked a Jewess who lived under the law:

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

After saying that He asked, "Believest thou this?"

Clete, do you believe that? Notice that He made no mention of "works" of any kind and the reward was based on faith alone.

 

[Danoh]

What Jerry has yet to see (because it is Jerry's MAJOR achilles heel) is that it is ever evident throughout the writings of men like Darby, Bullinger, Anderson, O'Hair, Baker, Stam, et al, that they were all in the habit of harmonizing through their own rationale, those things that differ in Scripture (that are NOT the same), that they each had not yet reached a point in their understanding that would have allowed them to see said things for what they are - things that are not the same: things that differ from one another.

This is largely due to the traditional viewpoint and where it looks at things from, that they were each still emerging out of, as they when about attempting to recover the various Dispensational distinctions they had each had a hand in recovering out of the darkness of traditional viewpoint.

All this is crystal clear evident throughout each's writings.

Those things that had thrown them remaining the victim of their unwittingly
having resorted to each their own rationale, when perplexed by a thing, until a next generation, beginning not from scratch as those men had had to do, nor having to go decades before seeing a thing as had been the case for those men, but rather, beginning on the shoulders of all that those men did recover that was sound, and that fresh eyes could then build on.

This has always been the case within every field of scientific inquiry pursued by man.

Ever in the way of such further refinements in both approach and resulting understandings?

People like Jerry.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

 

[glorydaz]

Yep, a qualifier. A standard by which to measure what having believed on Him as an Israelite at that time, actually constituted - the Law's Conditional "if...then" Works Based Principle.hat having believed on Him as an Israelite at that time, actually constituted - the Law's Conditional "if...then" Works Based Principle.

According to you even though the Lord Jesus said the following to the Jews who lived under the law their "believing" was not enough to result in any of those Jews receiving eternal life:

The fact is, they were Jews under the law, so what constituted their "belief" is not the same as what constitutes our belief. As Danoh pointed out, works were required....always....in the prior dispensation. The Jews wouldn't even be forgiven unless they forgave others. Does that sound like "believe only"?

We see it was still going on with Cornelius. I would say, "believe" to the Jews meant those who feared God and worked righteousness.

Act. 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There was a time when people were justified by faith plus works and now we are justified by faith apart from works.

Jerry thinks that the way it is now is the way it has always been.

Clete, in order to understand exactly how people down through the ages have been saved let us look at the following words of Paul where he speaks of the gospel of grace:

"And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been revealed, testified to by the law and the prophets, and this righteousness of God is through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those who believe, -- for there is no difference, for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-25).​

Paul says that this righteousness of God which is apart from law is now being made known. Then he says that this righteousness of God comes to all who believe. This blessing is made possible because believers are "declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

Now let us look at what is in "bold" here:

"And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, and this righteousness of God is through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those who believe..."

Paul is saying that the truth of the believer receiving this imputed righteousness which is of God was revealed by him first but the Old Testament testifies that even in those times believers were also obtaining the imputed righteousness which is of God. And then Paul first uses Abraham as an example of believers who receive this blessing by faith:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Ro.4:1-3).​

Then Paul moves on to David, who lived under the law:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:4-8).​

Next, Paul made it plain that both the Jews and the Gentiles receive the same blessing in the same way:

"Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also" (Ro.4:9-11).​

All believers down through history have received this blessedness which is apart from law or works. And then Paul makes it plain that both the Jews and the Gentiles are saved by faith on the principle of grace:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

If anyone wants to argue that those under the law could not be saved apart from works then they certainly do not understand that if salvation is of works then that salvation cannot be described as being of "grace." In fact, Paul describes 'eternal life" as a "gift" (Ro.6:23) and anyone in their right mind knows that "works" are not necessary to receive a gift, The Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law the following:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Some people put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than they do in what Paul and the Lord Jesus said.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The fact is, they were Jews under the law, so what constituted their "belief" is not the same as what constitutes our belief.

Here is what the Lord Jesus said about the way that the Jews who lived under the law received spiritual life and there is no difference as to what constitutes their belief from ours:

"The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life" (Jn.6:63).​

We see it was still going on with Cornelius. I would say, "believe" to the Jews meant those who feared God and worked righteousness.

Act. 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Peter was saying that those who fear God believe in Him and therefore they do their best to live according to their conscience. So when Paul says speaks of those who fear God and worketh rightousness he is merely describing them. After all, if a person is to be justified by his works then his works must be perfect and no one lives a perfect life.

On the other hand, there are plenty of people who refuse to believe the plain words of the Lord Jesus because they put more faith about what some people say about the Scriptures than they do in what the Scriptures actually say.

"Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

The Jews who lived under the law and believed in the Lord Jesus were born of God the moment they believed:

"He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God" (Jn.1:11-13).​

 

[glorydaz]

Here is what the Lord Jesus said about the way that the Jews who lived under the law received spiritual life and there is no difference as to what constitutes their belief from ours:

"The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life" (Jn.6:63).​

You seem to be reading a lot into that verse. I don't think it applies at all. What words do you think He's talking about? All the commands with their "if's and "then's?

Peter was saying that those who fear God believe in Him and therefore they do their best to live according to their conscience.

Right, great zeal but not according to knowledge. Romans 10:2

So when Paul says speaks of those who fear God and worketh rightousness he is merely describing them. After all, if a person is to be justified by his works then his works must be perfect and no one lives a perfect life.

Peter said that, right? And I'm convinced he meant what he was saying at the time. It had been that way right up until the dispensation of grace.

On the other hand, there are plenty of people who refuse to believe the plain words of the Lord Jesus because they put more faith about what some people say about the Scriptures than they do in what the Scriptures actually say.

"Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

The Jews who lived under the law and believed in the Lord Jesus were born of God the moment they believed:

"He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God" (Jn.1:11-13).​

There are also plenty of people who can't see a thing clearly, because they are too set in their ways. You can't ignore the fact that Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel, and lots of things changed when Paul came on the scene. Works are not a requirement under the dispensation of grace. You shouldn't ignore all the requirements the Jews were given. If what you're claiming is true, for instance, how can they be given eternal life if they fail in one point of the law....such as forgiving others in order to be forgiven? Why would He say that at all if only believing was required?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You seem to be reading a lot into that verse. I don't think it applies at all. What words do you think He's talking about? All the commands with their "if's and "then's?

Let's look again at what the lord Jesus said to the Jews who lived under the law:

"The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life" (Jn.6:63).​

The Lord is saying that the Spirit gives life and His words are Spirit and life. That means that those who believed the gospel which He preached received spiritual life upon believing.

The gospel which He preached to the Jews who lived under the Law is the truth that He is the Christ, the Son of God. And all those who believed that gospel were born of God upon believing it:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

Not only thsat, the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law that those who "believe" in Him the following:

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

Notice that the only requirement the Lord said was required for this blessing is "believing." Then He asked:

"Believest thou this?"​

Of course those with true faith believe that the blessing of which He spoke are received by faith and faith alone. However, there are some who cannot understand His plain words and insist that it took more than faith to receive that blessing because the Lord demanded "works" plus faith in order for those who lived under the law to be saved. Those who deny His plain words have been blinded to the truth that that the Lord Jesus required only "faith" for the Jews who lived under the law to receive eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Again, the Lord lists "believing" as the only requirement to receive the gift of eternal life. you throuw your reason to the wind and insist that those who lived under the law had to do "works' in order to receive this gift!

Peter said that, right? And I'm convinced he meant what he was saying at the time. It had been that way right up until the dispensation of grace.

You are wrong because we read the following about Noah:

"By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith" (Heb.11:7).​

And the following about Abraham:

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Ro.4:3).​

And Peter, who lived under the law, said this:

"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are” (Acts 15:8-11).​

Peter said that He was saved through the grace of God just like the Gentiles. And Paul says the following about the salvation of David who lived under the law:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered" (Ro.4:5-7).​

You shouldn't ignore all the requirements the Jews were given.

It is you who is flat out denying the Lord Jesus' words when He repeatedly told the Jews who lived under the law that the only requirement for receiving the many spiritual blessings of which He spoke was "faith."

 

[Danoh]

Cherry Picking Jerry, your continued obstinace no matter the obvious abundance of passages in Matthew through John against the erroneous assertion your cherry picking is so clearly based on, continually reminds me of the following prophecy against Israel...

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Based on the first five chapters of Isaiah, in which the Lord is repeatedly depicted as having continually attempted to have tried to reason with Israel, at the same time that He just as continually had warned them of His pending wrath, only to be met with their waxing their ears more and more against His Words to them, given their continued obstinance, that prophecy in chapter six describes your same kind of ever waxing worse obstinance against the truth of a thing, the more it is presented to you.

Be grateful, Jerry, that that aspect of Matthew thru Acts that that prophecy also applies to - to Israel - does not apply to you, a member of the Body, this side of within this Mystery's Grace Age.

For there is...no reasoning with you.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Cherry Picking Jerry, your continued obstinace no matter the obvious abundance of passages in Matthew through John against the erroneous assertion your cherry picking is so clearly based on, continually reminds me of the following prophecy against Israel...

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed..

You always want to talk about the Israelites who did not believe. but you never have an intelligent thing to say about those who did believe. Here is what we read about the Jews who lived under the law and did believe in the Lord Jesus:

"He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God" (Jn.1:11-13).​

The Jews who lived under the law who believed were given the right to become children of God because they believed in the Lord Jesus. And upon believing they were born of God and became children of God.

Of course those who have never had the experience of being born again remain ignorant of the truths of which the Lord Jesus declared numerous times:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day" (Jn.6:40).​

We also read this, probably the most quoted verse from the Bible:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

Paul also spoke of the fact that those who lived under the law received their spiritual blessings as a result of grace through faith:

"Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Paul says that the promises comes by faith so that it may be by grace. What he is saying is that the receiving of the promise by "faith" is the only way of receiving the promise which is compatible with receiving the promise on the principle of "grace."

That is because eternal life is a "gift" and if works are required to receive eternal life then eternal life can no longer be considered a "gift" because if it is earned then the LORD is under an obligation to bestow eternal life:

"Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation" (Ro.4:4).​

That is why the Lord Jesus makes it plain that eternal lifev is received by faith and faith alone, as witnessed by His following words to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Of course I know my words are falling on deaf ears because in order to understand spiritual things a person must first be born of God, born again and become a child of God.