ECT The Gospel Proper

[Rosenritter]

I'm drawing a blank on what's that got to do with MAD. Please explain.

It's indirectly relevant. You described how you needed to have the heart to be willing to reconsider where you might have been wrong... or at least you were once. Is that action of your heart an ongoing theme? Do you allow the possibility that even as your perspective adjusted once, it might not yet be perfected? For you who advocate that we must have a living heart that to consider the possibility of change, do you yourself still have this heart?

(There's a two-fold reason for this question.)

Maybe because when dealing with the opponents of MAD, we usually have to wade through so much bad indoctrination in order to even get the right question asked, and THEN try to answer it, it's usually impossible in this setting. It's tiresome, especially after fighting it more than once. I tried it with you and it got nowhere. I bet that's what you've encountered.

What's worse is dealing with ignorant or mistaken persons who don't believe they're ignorant or mistaken, so they'll refuse to hear any correction that might lead to real understanding of what we actually believe. That's a complete waste of time. That could be what you're getting too.

It seems to me that it is very "MAD"-ish to view everyone as an opponent.

 

[musterion]

It's actually very close to what Paul had to contend with. He spent so much time teaching the righteousness of faith...that righteousness does not come from obeying the law of commandments. Even the Apostles had trouble with it, and it took the sheet vision to even get Peter to see that tip of the iceberg.

If Paul's salvation is explicitly coupled with both the Stephen and the Cornelius incidents (which should be as shocking to readers as it was to Peter and the other Jews), it's a dead giveaway that something MAJOR had just changed and God had started doing something very different.

 

[musterion]

It's indirectly relevant. You described how you needed to have the heart to be willing to reconsider where you might have been wrong... or at least you were once. Is that action of your heart an ongoing theme? Do you allow the possibility that even as your perspective adjusted once, it might not yet be perfected?

Ah, I see. Throwing the focus off yourself.

To answer your question, no. Not by you.

For you who advocate that we must have a living heart that to consider the possibility of change, do you yourself still have this heart?

You try to be evasive but you're not nearly as slick as you think.

What was your name the other time you were on TOL?

It seems to me that it is very "MAD"-ish to view everyone as an opponent.

A duck walks like a duck walks.

 

[Rosenritter]

Ah, I see. Throwing the focus off yourself.

To answer your question, no. Not by you.

That answer to this question casts doubt upon your sincerity, with more of an indication that you have simply been "indoctrinated." A "yes" answer is a greater indication that the evidence you have accepted is of a fair nature that is more likely to fairly persuade (myself or another, for instance.)

It actually reaffirms what I've seen from MAD mentality so far, unfortunately.

You try to be evasive but you're not nearly as slick as you think.

What was your name the other time you were on TOL?

I have no idea what you are alluding to, but the only official name I have used on Theology online has been "Rosenritter." I have acknowledged shortened nicknames like "Rose" or "Rosey" and I have also alluded to my given Christian name of Andrew.

A duck walks like a duck walks.

 

[glorydaz]

If Paul's salvation is explicitly coupled with both the Stephen and the Cornelius incidents (which should be as shocking to readers as it was to Peter and the other Jews), it's a dead giveaway that something MAJOR had just changed and God had started doing something very different.

Exactly. :thumb:

God was only going to wait so long before Israel would be cast off.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: 9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.​

 

[glorydaz]

It's indirectly relevant. You described how you needed to have the heart to be willing to reconsider where you might have been wrong... or at least you were once. Is that action of your heart an ongoing theme? Do you allow the possibility that even as your perspective adjusted once, it might not yet be perfected? For you who advocate that we must have a living heart that to consider the possibility of change, do you yourself still have this heart?

(There's a two-fold reason for this question.)



It seems to me that it is very "MAD"-ish to view everyone as an opponent.

Rossenritter insists we must love as is commanded in the law. So this droning on and on about what we MUST do in order to live a good Christian Life..how we are to fulfill this law of love, is simply evidence of she has not yet come out from the law's bondage.

When the fact is that love is fulfilled IN US...not by us. Therefore, it would be totally outrageous to boast of our own ability to love as Rosenritter insists must be done.

Those under the law lecture and scold just as Rosenritter does.

"Do you yourself have this heart?", Rosenritter self-righteously demands to know.

Those who profess to be believers, yet live according to the law, and demand others do the same are simply here to spy out the liberty we have IN CHRIST JESUS. You law keepers are the opponent, Rosenritter.

 

[glorydaz]

That answer to this question casts doubt upon your sincerity, with more of an indication that you have simply been "indoctrinated."

And this one has the gall to flood the woodshed with reports on John W.

I'm thinking the whitewash sales have gone way up since Rosenritter has been posting.

 

[turbosixx]

15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

Obviously, his "to the Jew first" was to Jews who had not heard "the gospel of Christ" before PAUL shewed up to preach it unto them.

You need to get out of your own head. You are reading right past what Paul is saying because of your PAUL filter.

IF Paul is going to Jews who have not heard the gospel, who preached it to the ones who have heard? Who were these other men that laid the foundation that Paul didn't see the need to build upon?

Where do we see what Paul was actually preaching, to those who haven't heard, for the first time?

 

[Danoh]

You need to get out of your own head. You are reading right past what Paul is saying because of your PAUL filter.

IF Paul is going to Jews who have not heard the gospel, who preached it to the ones who have heard? Who were these other men that laid the foundation that Paul didn't see the need to build upon?

Respectfully, t6, you continue to prove yourself clueless. I gave you the answer to your question on your Obey The Gospel thread - three times - and it went right past you, Jacob and Rosenritter.

JohnW followed up with more of the same exact answer - much more - and it went right past the three of you as well.

I suspect the three of you were being sincere in your exchange, but it is obvious that each your study approach is clearly off and as a result ends you each up at an answer other than the obvious.

Answering you on your above, t6 will obviously meet with the same result, as its' answer is obvious in Acts, but to anyone not as familiar with Acts as they might believe themselves to be.

You've rationalized away bothering with the PDF Things That Differ by C.R. Stam, so be it.

You want an answer to the your above on Paul's words in Romans 15 that you cannot attribute to an error on my part, than I would suggest you actually follow the Three-Fold Study Principle implied by Acts 17:11,12 and get to reading the book of Acts, the very basis of what I wrote about Paul's words in Romans 15.

Your above question to me was nothing more than the product of your own reasoning about, and reading into a thing, as usual.

Proverbs 3:5.

 

[turbosixx]

I don't mind debating you. It's just the topic of water baptism that I try to sort of avoid. The cost-benefit ratio just usually isn't there.

Then I will try to avoid baptism but it's going to be hard.

commanding their followers to sell their processions and live in a commune. They fully understood the gospel. ( John 17:1-19 )

Could you please point out where they were commanded to sell their possessions?

This is so wrong it's nearly blasphemous - although I would expect you to understand why.

Peter was never sent to the Gentiles in any manner similar to that of Paul and without Paul, you would be a practicing Messianic Jew.

Further, if what you are saying is true, which it flatly isn't, but just saying for the sake of argument that it is, what the heck was the point of Paul in the first place then?

Why not just send Peter, James or John and forego all this confusion? Without Paul having been sent, there'd have been no need for the Jerusalem council, there'd have been no controversy over circumcision, no need for Peter to get all nervous about people from James showing up for dinner, etc. And that's not to even mention the next 2000 years worth of divisive disagreements in the church over all sorts of issues, probably the greatest of which is water baptism.

So, I ask again, WHY PAUL?

From my vantage point, you’re making Paul out to be something he’s not based on God’s intervention in his conversion and his zeal. Paul is no different than the 12, he’s a messenger sent from God.

Why Paul? I could ask the same question about Barnabas.
God called Barnabas to the same work.
Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
Barnabas was an apostle as well.
Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

The only difference I see in the two is God choosing Paul and Paul’s zeal. Same zeal that caused him to persecute the church.


After Saul’s conversion, he did the same as the 12, he preached repentance and that Jesus is Christ.
Acts 9:22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

After Damascus he goes to Jerusalem and he was with the apostles/disciples there going in and out among them. They only send him away to Tarsus because he is so bold in his preaching that it causes a stir and his life is threatened, Acts 9:26-30.

While Saul is in Tarsus, Barnabas is sent to Antioch because many had believed the preaching of Jesus and the Lord was with them, Acts 11:20-21. When Barnabas gets there, he sees the grace of God and people being added to the Lord.
Acts 11:23 When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad, and he exhorted them all to remain faithful to the Lord with steadfast purpose, 24 for he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord.
In your understanding, what are these people being added to?

After this Barnabas goes and looks for Saul and brings him back to the church at Antioch.
Acts 11:25 So Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, 26 and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.
In your understanding, what church is this? BOC?

We see in chapter 13 Saul is still there with the church until God sends him and Barnabas on a journey. When we see what he is preaching later in the chapter, it’s the same message Peter preached on Pentecost.
My question is, where is the difference in Paul's teaching/method of converting Christians?

You fail to see it because you have Acts 2 Dispensational glasses on. There is exactly nothing more antithetical to Paul's gospel than the idea of "wanting to keep clean before God".

In your understanding, what was Paul’s view on brethren who wanted to be clean according to the law? Romans 14

You think that grace has been added to a covenant of law and therefore think that getting wet has something to do with getting saved and you think that the Ten Commandments are something you should follow.

I’m either not making myself clear or you’re not hearing me. I’m sure it’s the former.

I DO NOT believe grace has been added to the law. I DO NOT believe we should be following the 10 commandments, that was for the Jews only. I believe the law was nailed to the cross. I believe God tore the veil because that was His way of saying man no longer approaches Him through that veil. After Jesus’s sacrifice, we approach Him through the veil of Jesus, Hebrews 10:20.

Nothing Peter preached on Pentecost nor him baptizing believers has anything to do with the law. The law was a shadow to help us understand Christ. After Jesus's DBR, it had nothing to do with adding anyone to the church which was purchased with His blood.

 

[turbosixx]

Respectfully, t6, you continue to prove yourself clueless. I gave you the answer to your question on your Obey The Gospel thread - three times - and it went right past you, Jacob and Rosenritter.

JohnW followed up with more of the same exact answer - much more - and it went right past the three of you as well.

I suspect the three of you were being sincere in your exchange, but it is obvious that each your study approach is clearly off and as a result ends you each up at an answer other than the obvious.

Answering you on your above, t6 will obviously meet with the same result, as its' answer is obvious in Acts, but to anyone not as familiar with Acts as they might believe themselves to be.

You've rationalized away bothering with the PDF Things That Differ by C.R. Stam, so be it.

You want an answer to the your above on Paul's words in Romans 15 that you cannot attribute to an error on my part, than I would suggest you actually follow the Three-Fold Study Principle implied by Acts 17:11,12 and get to reading the book of Acts, the very basis of what I wrote about Paul's words in Romans 15.

Your above question to me was nothing more than the product of your own reasoning about, and reading into a thing, as usual.

Proverbs 3:5.

Again your non answer just proves to me you can't support what you preach. It's a fair question. If Paul was the first to preach grace, to Jew or Gentile, then he should have gone to everyone. You fail to see Jesus is grace.

Peter preached the same gospel in Acts 2 that Paul did in Acts 13, no difference. Paul preached repent from day one just as Peter did, no difference. Paul baptized believers just as Jesus instructed and just as everyone else, no difference.

If you want to believe things others can't see, that's your free will. I'm just trying to help you see your going against Jesus and Paul.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
No difference

 

[Danoh]

Again your non answer just proves to me you can't support what you preach. It's a fair question. If Paul was the first to preach grace, to Jew or Gentile, then he should have gone to everyone. You fail to see Jesus is grace.

Peter preached the same gospel in Acts 2 that Paul did in Acts 13, no difference. Paul preached repent from day one just as Peter did, no difference. Paul baptized believers just as Jesus instructed and just as everyone else, no difference.

If you want to believe things others can't see, that's your free will. I'm just trying to help you see your going against Jesus and Paul.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
No difference

Lol - nice, failed attempt at a deflection.

Ten to one that others, including some man-MADs know exactly what I'd meant about what Paul said in Romans 15:20, and its being evidenced in Acts.

You're just not as up to par on such things as you apparantly like to believe you are.

As for your full of holes assertion that my answer to you herein above was merely a diversionary tactic on my part, I stand by my answer - in fact, just a little while ago, over in your "Obey the Gospel" thread, I posted what I'd meant by my earlier assertion on that thread that the answer to your question on the word "obey" in 2 Thessalonians 1, is in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Your reply on that thread not only reveals my post went right past your head, but also a possible attempt on your part to appear having understood my post.

I have to admit, I'm beginning to doubt your sincerity.

:chuckle:

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[turbosixx]

Ten to one that others, including some man-MADs know exactly what I'd meant about what Paul said in Romans 15:20, and its being evidenced in Acts.

Of course they're going to see it the way you do because your group reads in-between the lines. You can't take what it plainly says and make it fit your "meaning". It makes perfect sense to me that Paul strove to go where Christ had not been preached because it doesn't make sense to grow the church by going where Jesus has already been preached, by others.

21 So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.
You're boasting in Paul.

If you question my sincerity, feel free to cease replying to my post.

2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.

 

[john w]

Could you please point out where they were commanded to sell their possessions?

Why do you disingenuously ask that question, over, and over, when it has been addressed, over, and over, by myself, and others?


The Lord Jesus Christ commanded his disciples to sell all:

Command given: Mt. 19:21 KJV, Mk. 10:21 KJV, ;Luke 12:33 KJV, 18:22 KJV
Command obeyed: Mt. 19:27 KJV;Mk. 10:28 KJV;Luke 5:11KJV, 18:28 KJV, Acts 2:44-45 KJV,4:32-34 KJV
Penalty for disobedience-death-Acts 5:1-11 KJV

Do you have "...all things common...": Acts 2:44 KJV, 4:32-34 KJV , 3:6 KJV?

Well?


"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46 KJV


Have you sold all your possessions? This is one of the commands of the Lord Jesus Christ, in simple, 6th grade English, Jethro:

"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." Matthew 19:21 KJV

"Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth." Luke 12:32-33 KJV

("Extra credit" on this test! Please elaborate as to why you do or "do not the things" of giving alms, since obviously the body of Christ is being addressed here-"little flock"=the body of Christ.)

"Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." Luke 18:22 KJV

Read it-"sell all that thou hast,"

Any answer along the lines of "He really did not mean that literally- He was merely ONLY attempting to teach/convey a spiritual truth", or, "that was before the cross and the resurrection", will be "red marked" as incorrect, and "non responsive/incomplete", for the disciples did exactly what the Lord Jesus Christ said, both before and after the death, burial, and resurrection:

"before"

"Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?" Matthew 19:27 KJV

Read it-"we have forsaken all,"

"Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee." Mark 10:28 KJV

"Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee." Luke 18:28 KJV

Read it-"we have left all"

"after"

"And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need." Acts 2:44 KJV , Acts 2:45 KJV

Read it-"all things in common"

"Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk." Acts 3:6 KJV

That is why Peter said "Silver and gold have I none;"-he sold it all, per direct orders, from the Commander In Chief, the Lord Jesus Christ, the reason being in the context of the impending(at that time) "Great Trib."

"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." Acts 4:32-35 KJV

Read it-"all things in common"/They sold their homes, land.
Communism, folks. Anyone doing that today? I thought so. Watch the upcoming spin.....Watch.



(PS: "Extra credit" on this test! Provide your analysis as to the merits of communism, i.e., "...all things common..." vs. "free enterprise"/"capitalism", per Acts 11:29 KJV ,"every man according to his ability...", " today. And we must "leave out "

"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." 1 Timothy 5:8 KJV

since, obviously Paul had not read the previous cited scriptures. Why Paul?!)

Penalty for disobedience:death-Acts 5:1-11 KJV, per Numbers 15:29-31 KJV :

"Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him."

I expect each and every believer to "Produce your cause......bring forth your strong reasons...", as to why you do obey these commands, or, conversely, why you "....do not do the things which I say..."(Luke 6:46 KJV). If you do obey these commands, I would at least respect your intellectual honesty, and your consistency.

As Elijah of old demanded, and I likewise demand: "...How long halt ye between two opinions?..." (1 Kings 18:21 KJV)

And I do not expect "....And the people answered him not a word...." (1 Kings 18:21 KJV)




Here is why you keep asking that question: You are not here to learn, as you are a dishonest seeker.

 

[Danoh]

Of course they're going to see it the way you do because your group reads in-between the lines. You can't take what it plainly says and make it fit your "meaning". It makes perfect sense to me that Paul strove to go where Christ had not been preached because it doesn't make sense to grow the church by going where Jesus has already been preached, by others.

21 So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.
You're boasting in Paul.

If you question my sincerity, feel free to cease replying to my post.

2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.

I see my typo got right past you, despite the obvious.

Why do you think I used the words "including some"?

Because I'd meant "including NON-MADS" also.

I swear, your kind appear forever stuck in some sort of an Acts 8:31A...Twilight Zone.

:chuckle:

Acts 8:31A - "And he said, How can I (understand), except some man should guide me?"

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Danoh]

Why do you disingenuously ask that question, over, and over, when it has been addressed, over, and over, by myself, and others?


The Lord Jesus Christ commanded his disciples to sell all:

Command given: Mt. 19:21 KJV, Mk. 10:21 KJV, ;Luke 12:33 KJV, 18:22 KJV
Command obeyed: Mt. 19:27 KJV;Mk. 10:28 KJV;Luke 5:11KJV, 18:28 KJV, Acts 2:44-45 KJV,4:32-34 KJV
Penalty for disobedience-death-Acts 5:1-11 KJV

Do you have "...all things common...": Acts 2:44 KJV, 4:32-34 KJV , 3:6 KJV?

Well?


"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46 KJV


Have you sold all your possessions? This is one of the commands of the Lord Jesus Christ, in simple, 6th grade English, Jethro:

"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." Matthew 19:21 KJV

"Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth." Luke 12:32-33 KJV

("Extra credit" on this test! Please elaborate as to why you do or "do not the things" of giving alms, since obviously the body of Christ is being addressed here-"little flock"=the body of Christ.)

"Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." Luke 18:22 KJV

Read it-"sell all that thou hast,"

Any answer along the lines of "He really did not mean that literally- He was merely ONLY attempting to teach/convey a spiritual truth", or, "that was before the cross and the resurrection", will be "red marked" as incorrect, and "non responsive/incomplete", for the disciples did exactly what the Lord Jesus Christ said, both before and after the death, burial, and resurrection:

"before"

"Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?" Matthew 19:27 KJV

Read it-"we have forsaken all,"

"Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee." Mark 10:28 KJV

"Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee." Luke 18:28 KJV

Read it-"we have left all"

"after"

"And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need." Acts 2:44 KJV , Acts 2:45 KJV

Read it-"all things in common"

"Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk." Acts 3:6 KJV

That is why Peter said "Silver and gold have I none;"-he sold it all, per direct orders, from the Commander In Chief, the Lord Jesus Christ, the reason being in the context of the impending(at that time) "Great Trib."

"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." Acts 4:32-35 KJV

Read it-"all things in common"/They sold their homes, land.
Communism, folks. Anyone doing that today? I thought so. Watch the upcoming spin.....Watch.



(PS: "Extra credit" on this test! Provide your analysis as to the merits of communism, i.e., "...all things common..." vs. "free enterprise"/"capitalism", per Acts 11:29 KJV ,"every man according to his ability...", " today. And we must "leave out "

"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." 1 Timothy 5:8 KJV

since, obviously Paul had not read the previous cited scriptures. Why Paul?!)

Penalty for disobedience:death-Acts 5:1-11 KJV, per Numbers 15:29-31 KJV :

"Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him."

I expect each and every believer to "Produce your cause......bring forth your strong reasons...", as to why you do obey these commands, or, conversely, why you "....do not do the things which I say..."(Luke 6:46 KJV). If you do obey these commands, I would at least respect your intellectual honesty, and your consistency.

As Elijah of old demanded, and I likewise demand: "...How long halt ye between two opinions?..." (1 Kings 18:21 KJV)

And I do not expect "....And the people answered him not a word...." (1 Kings 18:21 KJV)




Here is why you keep asking that question: You are not hear to learn, as you are a dishonest seeker.

Yep, this is why Paul not only described them as poor in the following, but had had to take up a collection on their behalf...

Romans 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Because when this began...

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

That temporarily interrupted this...

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

And with said temporary interruption, Romans 11:25, Israel's foretaste of THEIR "world to come" Hebrews 2: 5, was over and done with.

This foretaste here...

Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

The result?

The poor saints at Jerusalem.

But then again, I went by the Scripture over my own two cents - I simply followed the example of...

Nehemiah 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Try that sometime, turbosixx.

In fact, all the time.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[turbosixx]

Why do you disingenuously ask that question, over, and over, when it has been addressed, over, and over, by myself, and others?

I keep asking because the replies I get don't make sense with what I read in scripture. Sorry, but I'm not going to remember something that doesn't add up.

You've jumped all over the bible and forced pieces together that don't belong together to come up with your "command" to sell all. The context in Acts itself proves there is no "commanded" to sell all.

35 and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.
They saw brothers in need and were helping. Not selling all.

4:36 Thus Joseph, who was also called by the apostles Barnabas (which means son of encouragement), a Levite, a native of Cyprus, 37 sold a field that belonged to him and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet
Sold a field, not all.

5:1 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,
A piece of property, not all.

5:4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal?
It was theirs to do with as they pleased, before and after the sale.

Their sin was lying to the Holy Spirit.
5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
Keeping back some of the proceeds was not their sin, they lied about how much they sold it for.
5:8 And Peter said to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much.” And she said, “Yes, for so much.” They wanted the praise of the people.



Your command to sell verses are not about selling all you have. 3 were specifically addressed to the rich young ruler because that is what his problem was.
23 But when he heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich.

The other verse are about trusting God to provide and treasure that really matters.
31 Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

There is no command to sell all you have.

Here is why you keep asking that question: You are not hear to learn, as you are a dishonest seeker.

I am honestly testing what I believe to be truth. I'm not going to believe just anything. I test what I'm told to see if it holds up compared to scripture.

 

[musterion]

I keep asking because the replies I get don't make sense with what I read in scripture.

That's exactly what I been talking about.

Psst...the replies do make sense. It's not our fault you can't understand. They don't make sense because of how you been denominationally trained to read and understand scripture. We can only point it out, we can't fix it for you.

 

[john w]

I keep asking because the replies I get don't make sense with what I read in scripture. Sorry, but I'm not going to remember something that doesn't add up.

You've jumped all over the bible and forced pieces together that don't belong together to come up with your "command" to sell all. The context in Acts itself proves there is no "commanded" to sell all.

Stuff your GOOGLED sound byte cliche above, and although "context" is important,you employ that dodge on every post, when there is no context, as the words are in plain, direct language, that a 6 year old can "get," with your "it really does not mean that" deception. You lied, when you asserted that the 12, the early Acts believers, were not told to sell it all, leave all-they did exactly that, moron, and no amount of spinning, deceit, on your part, "Three Card Monty," can mask your lying.....

There is no command to sell all you have.

The Lord Jesus Christ commanded his disciples to sell all:

Command given: Mt. 19:21 KJV, Mk. 10:21 KJV, ;Luke 12:33 KJV, 18:22 KJV
Command obeyed: Mt. 19:27 KJV;Mk. 10:28 KJV;Luke 5:11KJV, 18:28 KJV, Acts 2:44-45 KJV,4:32-34 KJV
Penalty for disobedience-death-Acts 5:1-11 KJV

Do you have "...all things common...": Acts 2:44 KJV, 4:32-34 KJV , 3:6 KJV?

Well?


"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46 KJV


Have you sold all your possessions? This is one of the commands of the Lord Jesus Christ, in simple, 6th grade English, Jethro:

"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." Matthew 19:21 KJV

"Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth." Luke 12:32-33 KJV

("Extra credit" on this test! Please elaborate as to why you do or "do not the things" of giving alms, since obviously the body of Christ is being addressed here-"little flock"=the body of Christ.)

"Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." Luke 18:22 KJV

Read it-"sell all that thou hast,"

Any answer along the lines of "He really did not mean that literally- He was merely ONLY attempting to teach/convey a spiritual truth", or, "that was before the cross and the resurrection", will be "red marked" as incorrect, and "non responsive/incomplete", for the disciples did exactly what the Lord Jesus Christ said, both before and after the death, burial, and resurrection:

"before"

"Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?" Matthew 19:27 KJV

Read it-"we have forsaken all,"

"Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee." Mark 10:28 KJV

"Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee." Luke 18:28 KJV

Read it-"we have left all"

35 and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.
They saw brothers in need and were helping. Not selling all.

4:36 Thus Joseph, who was also called by the apostles Barnabas (which means son of encouragement), a Levite, a native of Cyprus, 37 sold a field that belonged to him and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet
Sold a field, not all.

5:1 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,
A piece of property, not all.

5:4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal?
It was theirs to do with as they pleased, before and after the sale.

Their sin was lying to the Holy Spirit.
5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
Keeping back some of the proceeds was not their sin, they lied about how much they sold it for.
5:8 And Peter said to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much.” And she said, “Yes, for so much.” They wanted the praise of the people.

No, you deceitfully spinned it, liar. 40 days of "Boot Camp" from the Master, post resurrection....the 12, all filled 100% with "the promise of the Father," and they sold it all, and instructed the early Acts belivers, to sell their possessions, land.............You lied, and continue to lie, liar:


"And all that believed were together, and had all things common;.....Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk....
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." Acts 2:44 KJV,Acts 3:6 KJV, Acts 4:32-35 KJV

Now, turbosixx-you, and your fellow obvious Christians, should immediately establish a communist community, where you all equally share everything, "having all things in common," and sell your sell your land and houses, gold, 401(K), 403(B),........and distribute it to the poor.

Leave all-including your wife, family.....

Do you do that? Do it. Why not? Tell all of TOL. Go ahead. Let me guess: It really does not mean that, like your Mark 16 ff deception, right, deceiver?

Your command to sell verses are not about selling all you have. 3 were specifically addressed to the rich young ruler because that is what his problem was.
23 But when he heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich.

The other verse are about trusting God to provide and treasure that really matters.

No, you lied, and made the above up, spinning, deceiving the flock, liar-the 12 were told to sell all-they did-they left it all-the rich young ruler was told to sell all that he had-why are you lying-what is your motivation, liar?:

"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." Matthew 19:21 KJV

"Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth." Luke 12:32-33 KJV

("Extra credit" on this test! Please elaborate as to why you do or "do not the things" of giving alms, since obviously the body of Christ is being addressed here-"little flock"=the body of Christ.)

"Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." Luke 18:22 KJV

Read it-"sell all that thou hast,"

I am honestly testing what I believe to be truth. I'm not going to believe just anything. I test what I'm told to see if it holds up compared to scripture.

No, you are not. You are lying, about your assertion that the LORD God gave no command to sell all. And you continue to lie, and deceive, with your sophistry, "spiritual back flips/cart wheels/gymnastics," to deceive the babes/flock.


Tell all of TOL your motivation for lying. Go ahead.

And, no, you want to see if what you've been shown, chapter and verse, by I/others, from scriptures, from a dispensational viewpoint,agrees with/supports your "it all says the same thing," and "just one" church SOF, as you ignore the preciseness, details of the scriptures, a book of details,and display your disdain for such details, in laziness, and disregard, a cavalier attitude, for said scriptures.

 

[musterion]

Originally Posted by turbosixx

There is no command to sell all you have.

Why do you lie like this?