SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
This IP fella is more of an amateur psychologist than a Bible believer.
ECT The Gospel Preached at Pentecost
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
“And he said unto them, O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Behooved it not the Christ to suffer these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures; and he said unto them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day; and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name unto all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. Ye are witnesses of these things. And behold, I send forth the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city, until ye be clothed with power from on high.”
??Luke? ?24:25-27, 45-49? ?ASV??
http://bible.com/12/luk.24.25-27,45-49.asv
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Are you not aware that what you quoted there are not quotes from what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost?
You confuse what was is said about the two different gospels which Paul preached. The gospel he preached to the Jews was found in the OT and was revealed by the OT prophets:
"Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Ro.1:1-3).
On the other hand, the gospel which he preached to the Gentiles cannot be found in the OT because it was kept secret:
"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, even the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (Ro.16:25-26).
Things which differ are not the same!
Lol:
now is made manifest, and
by
the scriptures of the prophets, !!!!
according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith"
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Looks like the gospel is found in the OT. But you are unable to put it together because of your pre conceived philosophical prejudice.
Furthermore that passage declared that Jesus revealed the mystery. Paul calls it my gospel because he received more illumination than the other apostles. He did not originate the revelation of the gospel. Yeshua did that on the road to Emaus which was an alternate route from the MAD highway you're speeding on.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Which will leave us disagreeing on this:
I believe that the gospel can be presented using Old Testament scriptures alone. You do not.
I believe that to get a comprehensive theology on the grace of God you have to have the book of Romans as well as other Pauline epistles.
The burden of proof therefore for the MADists is to ignore the facts that the Law, Writings, and the Prophets clearly represented the death burial and resurrection of Christ for sin. They do. And the first thread I ever created here lists them all - Messianic Christology. The old saying that Christ fulfilled over 300 prophecies at His first coming is a false statement not backed up by scripture. It is a statement that shows a lack of scholarship. Again, the gospel is presented in the OT. The difference is that it is not found in one book and one chapter it's spread throughout the OT and it takes a diligent student with divine illumination to see it. That is why the disciples were clueless to the substitutionary D,B and resurrection for sin. Not because it wasn't prophesied but because it required the divine illumination of the Holy Spirit of whom we all now have in us that believe. Quit grieving the Spirit Jerry (had to throw that in, couldn't resist),
Your pal,
In2wrong
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
There are at most a good four, if not five "variants" of MAD being represented on TOL.
The study approach, resulting views and understandings of each of which will differ in key areas.
Most (not all) on here hold to one and largely the same variant.
I myself do not hold key aspects of it, nor to key aspects within two of the others represented on here.
The different understandings are themselves the result of different issues.
Here is a link with some articles on the Epistle to the Hebrews that go into aspects of the Cross work of Christ predicted in the Law and the Prophets.
They are based on a series of studies by one of the more well-rounded Pastor-Teachers of the different variants of "MAD" presently out there; Pastor-Teachers who each nevertheless hold that Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is a Biblically based study approach.
http://www.bereanworkman.com/tools.html
I'm glad you still love me Dan oh .
Unless one of my kids starts believing in mad I probably won't be studying this but thanks. One of my kids other than my son Jerry.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If the gospel which Paul preached to the Gentiles was found in the OT than why did Paul say it is "now" made known? Of course you just ignored that Paul said that his gospel "was kept secret since the world began."
The Scriptures of the prophets refers to the epistles written in the first century. One of the meanings of the Greek word commonly translated "prophet" means "of men filled with the Spirit of God, who by God's authority and command in words of weight pleads the cause of God and urges salvation of men" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
It is you who is making the assertion so the burden of proof is on you. And if you are right then please explain why the Apostles, who were closet to Him, did not even know that He was going to die until shortly before the Cross?
And why did the OT prophets not connect the "grace" with His sufferings?
"Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven" (1 Pet.1:10-1).
Here Peter is saying that the prophets searched diligently in an effort to determine what the prophecies concerning Christ's suffering did signify but it was not revealed unto them. Roger M. Raymer writes:
"Concerning this salvation (cf. 'salvation' in vv. 5, 9) the prophets...searched intently and with the greatest care their own Spirit-guided writings. They longed to participate in this salvation and coming period of grace and tried to discover the appointed time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing. The pondered how the glorious Messiah could be involved in suffering" (Walvoord & Zuck, The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament [ChariotVictor Publishing, 1983], p.842).
In the Doctrinal Statement of Dallas Theological Seminary we read the following:
"We believe that it has always been true that 'without faith it is impossible to please' God (Heb. 11:6), and that the principle of faith was prevalent in the lives of all the Old Testament saints...it is evident that they did not comprehend as we do that the sacrifices depicted the person and work of Christ. We believe also that they did not understand the redemptive significance of the prophecies or types concerning the sufferings of Christ (1 Pet. 1:10-12)" [emphasis added] (Dallas Theological Seminary, Full Doctrinal Statement, "Article V--The Dispensations").
"If the gospel which Paul preached to the Gentiles was found in the OT than why did Paul say it is "now" made known? "(Jerry)
Behold, my servant, whom I uphold; my chosen, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God Jehovah, he that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; he that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isaiah 42:1-6
This passage teaches
Messiah would be anointed by the Holy Spirit
Messiah would conduct Himself in meekness and gentleness
Although Messiahs mission would appear to end in failure it would in fact be a complete success. The success of His ministry actually required His death.
Messiah's mission includes Gentile salvation.
"The Scriptures of the prophets refers to the epistles written in the first century" (Jerry)
WRONG
“And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.”
??Luke? ?24:27? ?ASV??
RIGHT
"It is you who is making the assertion so the burden of proof is on you. And if you are right then please explain why the Apostles, who were closet to Him, did not even know that He was going to die until shortly before the Cross?"
NO DIVINE ILLUMINATION
“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.”
??Matthew? ?16:17? ?ASV??
And why did the OT prophets not connect the "grace" with His sufferings?
B RIGHT BACK WITH THE SCRIPTURES THAT MAKE THIS CONNECTION THAT YOU MISSED
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
"And why did the OT prophets not connect the "grace" with His sufferings?" (Jerry)
Behold, my servant shall deal wisely, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. 14 Like as many were astonished at thee (his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men), 15 so shall he sprinkle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they understand.
1 Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed? 2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who among them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due? 9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 52:13 - 53:13
This passage teaches
Messiah would be born of natural circumstances with no unusual characteristics.
Messiah's first coming would be marked with suffering.
Messiah's first coming would be rejected.
Messiah would undergo a legal trial and be condemned to death.
Messiah would be executed.
Messiah would be buried in a rich man's tomb.
Messiah would be resurrected.
All of the Messiahs suffering and death were to be substitutionary. He died so that we may have life. He died so that our sins could be removed from us. He died so that we may enter into a new relationship with God.
Messiah would bring justification to all who believe in Him.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Behold, my servant shall deal wisely, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. 14 Like as many were astonished at thee (his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men), 15 so shall he sprinkle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they understand.
1 Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed? 2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who among them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due? 9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 52:13 - 53:13
This passage teaches
Messiah would be born of natural circumstances with no unusual characteristics.
Messiah's first coming would be marked with suffering.
Messiah's first coming would be rejected.
Messiah would undergo a legal trial and be condemned to death.
Messiah would be executed.
Messiah would be buried in a rich man's tomb.
Messiah would be resurrected.
All of the Messiahs suffering and death were to be substitutionary. He died so that we may have life. He died so that our sins could be removed from us. He died so that we may enter into a new relationship with God.
Messiah would bring justification to all who believe in Him.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
7 For the Lord Jehovah will help me; therefore have I not been confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be put to shame. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand up together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord Jehovah will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? behold, all they shall wax old as a garment, the moth shall eat them up.
Isaiah 50:7-9
This passage teaches
Messiah would receive special training from the God the Father.
Messiah's first coming would be marked by suffering.
Messiah would be obedient to submitting Himself to physical abuse.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Suit yourself.
Your loss.
I've often been able to learn things from another's different view.
That is why I was able to give Fructhenbaum such a high mark - because I "bothered to" read him in a spirit, or heart attitude of Acts 17:11.
That attitude those "more noble" Bereans actually walked in, in contrast to the mere lip service and its' intolerance, of so many, toward any view but their own.
As a result, I have found he has had much to add to mine own understanding of...the things that differ.
The Acts 17:11 heart attitude?
An attitude of "okay, let's really give this other view an ACTUAL hearing out...
...with ALL readiness of mind - ACTUALLY doing so...
...and NOT towards proving it "WRONG!" "NOT FOR US - STUPID!!!"
...rather, that ONLY AFTER said ACTUAL hearing out...
ONLY THEN might one search the Scriptures DAILY (actually - LIFE long) whether those things are so...
...that ONLY THEN...
...might one THEREFORE...believe.."
Like I said, it is your loss.
And a loss...it is.
As for liking you or not - neither you, nor I...are the issue.
Christ ALONE...is.
At least He is in actual - GRACE - "MAD."
Eph. 4:32.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Please quote the verses from the Isaiah passage which say that.
And then tell me why the Twelve did not even know He was going to die until just shortly before the Cross.
Please demonstrate that in the OT it is revealed that the Messiah would be made sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
That is the heart and soul of the gospel of grace.
I think like Calvanists but not nearly as bad, no comparison, the MAD believers are missing a complete israelology.
If you google the road to Emmaus you'll get a bunch of "I wish I were a fly on the wall" or had a tape recorder or whatever.
We know exactly what Yeshua taught from the Law, the prophets and the writings aka the Old Testament scriptures concerning Himself.
Unless we haven't thought it important enough to find out.
But if you do then the arguments against Luke 24 when Yeshua opened their eyes goes up in smoke.
One argument was that Yeshua referred to the day of Atonement sacrifice.
That exploded into a zero because Jesus specifically applies the remission of sin to the Gentiles in that passage.
Another argued that Jesus was talking about the Apostles writings.
That is going from intellectual dishonesty to absurdity.
My own observations about fellow Christians that latch onto MAD are no different than the christians latching into Calvinism. You think you've graduated into an area of significance. The truth is that Jesus will not return until the Jews ask him to return.
When you recognize that fact Israel becomes the focal point of the faith in Yeshua
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
If you google the road to Emmaus you'll get a bunch of "I wish I were a fly on the wall" or had a tape recorder or whatever.
We know exactly what Yeshua taught from the Law, the prophets and the writings aka the Old Testament scriptures concerning Himself.
Unless we haven't thought it important enough to find out.
But if you do then the arguments against Luke 24 when Yeshua opened their eyes goes up in smoke.
One argument was that Yeshua referred to the day of Atonement sacrifice.
That exploded into a zero because Jesus specifically applies the remission of sin to the Gentiles in that passage.
Another argued that Jesus was talking about the Apostles writings.
That is going from intellectual dishonesty to absurdity.
My own observations about fellow Christians that latch onto MAD are no different than the christians latching into Calvinism. You think you've graduated into an area of significance. The truth is that Jesus will not return until the Jews ask him to return.
When you recognize that fact Israel becomes the focal point of the faith in Yeshua
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Interplanner
Well-known member
So if Jesus wasn't talking about (in Luke 24) what the New Testament Apostles would write after His ascension then He had to be referencing the OT prophecies concerning His substitutionary death, burial and resurrection.
You have no argument, Yeshua taught the disciples that He died for their sins as the savior of their souls.
Truth always wins..
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
You have no argument, Yeshua taught the disciples that He died for their sins as the savior of their souls.
Truth always wins..
Sent from my iPhone using TOL