The Gospel Of Thomas

[Lon]

No you are being disrespectful to one of the 12 our Lord Jesus Christ choose.. stop please.

:doh: Do you think it is actually called the Book of Thomas or the Gospel of Thomas, Joseph? (it isn't, it just starts out with that first sentence).

If anything I'm disrespectful to the translator and his label for the book but it wasn't intentional nor is it any big deal whatsoever.

please provide scripture,, JOHN IS THE ONLY ONE TO SAY THAT....

:idunno: No idea what you are talking about, I gave Luke and Corinthians as counterpoints to this supposed book/gospel of Thomas.

...from here on out please provide scripture for your assumptions.

I have to this point. You should either address my post about the problem verses with scriptural evidence and support, and not engage in peripheral conversation if it is distracting you, or just forget about it. You have choices in life.

 

[Levolor]

Such does not mean to chase every wind and doctrine. If you'll read my first post in here, it was rather why the BoT is not in our canon (for very good reason) and why it is problematic for spiritual reading.

Intellectually? Go for it. The problem is: We have books that are from God for the purpose of teaching us and shaping our spirituality and then we have books that are not from God nor are scripture. There is a huge huge difference between scripture and any other writing. Only one is without error from God. Can you read other books? Absolutely. I simply want my caution to stand: The Book of Thomas is not scripture.

It is an important point to make because there are a few on TOL who will argue that it is (case in point) and do not recognize the huge huge difference. Once God is no longer your authority, you are no longer a legitimate child of God but a bastardized version of every religion trying to make sense of the world without God's input or under His authority. That, I must ever speak out against.

Sometimes the more something is fought against, the more stubborn the opposition becomes.

Also, I never said the GOT was scripture. However, the Word of God* can be seen and found in many places. That is, if one has the eye and ears to see and hear.

*John 21:25

That doesn't mean that God isn't my first and foremost authority. The bible is where my final say comes from. Maybe you have noticed that most of my input in this thread is associating the GOT sayings with scripture?

At the same time, however, there are several layers of understanding to be had from the bible. Those who can only understand the simplest literal level cannot understand the highest secret mystical understandings... nor those who do.

 

[JosephR]

:doh: Do you think it is actually called the Book of Thomas or the Gospel of Thomas, Joseph? (it isn't, it just starts out with that first sentence).

If anything I'm disrespectful to the translator and his label for the book but it wasn't intentional nor is it any big deal whatsoever.

ahh if you meant "BOOK" of Thomas then I humbly apologize,,i thought you meant a derogatory term..

 

[freelight]

Two scoops for Lon......

Two scoops for Lon......

The problem with gnosticism (and why Thomas' supposed quotes are not scripture) is that it starts with man like every other religion on the face of the earth but Christianity/Judaism: Both of these are God reaching to man and not vise-versa.

Hi Lon,

Its been awhile

The above claim may not be that accurate since other religious traditions have their holy books coming from divine inspiration (From God/Gods, angels, avatars, prophets, etc.), so I think singling out 'Judaism' and 'Christianity' as 'unique' in that respect is a bit of a 'stretch', if not a biased indulgence.

Gnosticism as a way of appreciating literature or other things is noble enough but once you set man's thoughts on par with God's when it is clear they are not in sync with scripture is a fool's folly.

Adding from above,...we're swinging back to a prefigured/pre-concluded belief that a given set of 'scripture' is the perfect and replete record of 'God', which is debatable.

Take them as coming from man and not from God and we can learn about less-than-christian sentiments that the Body of Christ had to address. We can learn what they thought, without the Holy Spirit guiding them, and we can even learn a little of the culture of the time. There is little else they can contribute to your Spiritual life however, other than learning to avoid heresies, inaccuracies, and mistruths.

Oh goodness,....this is the tune and whistle of the heresiologists and apologists down thru the ages, who have combated Gnosticism in all its forms, or all other 'heresies' in the name of 'orthodoxy'. Same ole song.

So, as to intellectual persuits, fine. As to Spiritual contributions? :nono:

Proverbs 14:12; 16:25

Intellectual and spiritual insights can work in sync within a given belief-system, school of thought, science or tradition...since the 'God' who is Spirit is the essence and source of life itself. This same Deity is LIGHT....the origin of all knowledge/revelation/truth. - details within the cultural-context and traditional over-lay of the system vary, of course,...but 'God' is the Sun, the various religious traditions being its 'rays'.

A few of you force God to fit your mold rather than being molded by His (not that you can and you certainly aren't relevant or significant to the rest of us). Cults and fringes will ever remain cults and fringes pushing all-too-human agendas.

More tunes and whistles Lon. Its the usual 'sanctioned company' defendinig the 'canon' and 'creed'.

At best, from my POV,...this is free exploration and consideration of a collection of sayings attributed to Jesus,.....which we are cross-correlating with other passages, both 'canonical' and 'non-canonical'. Whatever truths, insights, values, meanings, allegories, metaphors or analogies can be drawn therefrom, are for readers to judge for themselves by all the powers of discernment available. - that's what honest research is all about, and having a mind open to keep asking, seeking and knocking....which Jesus certainly encourages.



pj

 

[Levolor]

ahh yes the types of demons vary, some even seek redemption..

some are pure evil. as per the Goetia and the lesser keys of Solomon.

All darkness however can be erased by the LIGHT that is truth...
but some choose darkness,and self preservation.Most only just want to be.But all of them should be left uncontacted, As YahWeh told His people, do not Contact the dead,because of coarse,there is a way to do so,or He would not have forbid it.

I don't want to contact the demon. Only want to know what the influence is. I have an idea, but yes Christ, The Light, will be who will be doing the contacting.

Oddly enough, some people want their demons, too.

 

[JosephR]

Sometimes the more something is fought against, the more stubborn the opposition becomes.

Also, I never said the GOT was scripture. However, the Word of God* can be seen and found in many places. That is, if one has the eye and ears to see and hear.

*John 21:25

That doesn't mean that God isn't my first and foremost authority. The bible is where my final say comes from. Maybe you have noticed that most of my input in this thread is associating the GOT sayings with scripture?

At the same time, however, there are several layers of understanding to be had from the bible. Those who can only understand the simplest literal level cannot understand the highest secret mystical understandings... nor those who do.

Jesus said,look under the rock and you will find me there.

another once said, the only Zen you will find at the mountaintop is what you bring with you..

Yoda said,your weapons,you will not need them

2 is older then 1 and 3 came from both,,

truly ALL comes from one source..

 

[Levolor]

Hi Lon,

Its been awhile

The above claim may not be that accurate since other religious traditions have their holy books coming from divine inspiration (From God/Gods, angels, avatars, prophets, etc.), so I think singling out 'Judaism' and 'Christianity' as 'unique' in that respect is a bit of a 'stretch', if not a biased indulgence.



Adding from above,...we're swinging back to a prefigured/pre-concluded belief that a given set of 'scripture' is the perfect and replete record of 'God', which is debatable.



Oh goodness,....this is the tune and whistle of the heresiologists and apologists down thru the ages, who have combated Gnosticism in all its forms, or all other 'heresies' in the name of 'orthodoxy'. Same ole song.



Intellectual and spiritual insights can work in sync within a given belief-system, school of thought, science or tradition...since the 'God' who is Spirit is the essence and source of life itself. This same Deity is LIGHT....the origin of all knowledge/revelation/truth. - details within the cultural-context and traditional over-lay of the system vary, of course,...but 'God' is the Sun, the various religious traditions being its 'rays'.



More tunes and whistles Lon. Its the usual 'sanctioned company' defendinig the 'canon' and 'creed'.

At best, from my POV,...this is free exploration and consideration of a collection of sayings attributed to Jesus,.....which we are cross-correlating with other passages, both 'canonical' and 'non-canonical'. Whatever truths, insights, values, meanings, allegories, metaphors or analogies can be drawn therefrom, are for readers to judge for themselves by all the powers of discernment available. - that's what honest research is all about, and having a mind open to keep asking, seeking and knocking....which Jesus certainly encourages.



pj

Amen.

As said earlier: There is a tremendous amount of fear within Christians that prevents them from investigating.

And we are (again) seeing the purveying of it.

 

[Levolor]

truly ALL comes from one source..

Amen.

Acts 17:28

 

[freelight]

Food for thought......

Food for thought......

Hope that means you watched the video? I have read some of it and have the exact same reservations that Lee Strobel gives in this video.

Lee doesn't address the support for Thomas earlier dating but only focuses on some 'evidence' for a later date,...all scholarly treatments must be considered. As for Lee Strobel's book "The case for Christ", Robert M Price challenges his 'evidence' in that book here. I'm still researching Roberts work.

After that, I believe in a Protestant Canon based on 1) the authority of Christ (what He quoted from) and 2) from the authority of the Apostles and finally 3) from internal consistencies (Peter, for instance says that all of Paul's writings are scripture). Therefore, you nor I get to 'add' whatever we feel like. If a book is authorized by Jesus or His Apostles, it is scripture. If not? :nono: :nono:

As noted earlier, Jesus did NOT authorize any part of the NT since it was canonized by religionists many years later, and any quotes validating the 'truth' of 'scripture' were referring to certain OT passages (Jesus validating the Jewish law and prophets).

As far as authority of the apostles is concerned, what we have mostly are letters attributed to Paul, the book of Acts record by Luke who was sympathetic towards Paul, while James, 1st and 2nd Peter are deemed 'pseudographical', so using 2nd Peter to prove Paul's writings are somehow equated with 'scripture' I find rather weak, also noting Paul's conflicts with Peter and the pillars of the Jerusalem Community on other occasions.

Don't hold a man-made set of books in your hands thinking they are on par as if you have authority to do it. You nor I, nor the RC, have that authority. :nono:

Here, we're assuming again that the canonized gospels or the entire NT itself is the complete or final 'authority' for anything.



pj

 

[freelight]

The Kingdom is all-pervading........

The Kingdom is all-pervading........

~*~*~

Thomas 3 Jesus said, "... Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

There are huge problems with this ideology. The 'kingdom' is not inside of men. Romans tells us all have fallen short. See John 15:5. Christ is not an 'enabler' for you to be all you can be. He is life and without Him there is no kingdom inside. Only a Christian, indwelled by the Holy Spirit becomes a new creation 2 Corinthians 5:17 where the old has 'passed away.' So much for Jesus supposedly saying the kingdom is inside of you. It is a misquote of Luke 17:21 which says 'among' you or 'with you,' instead. Huge difference.

I'd read the saying a bit more carefully before judging what it teaches. Treat it as a 'meditation'. First of all,...the verse is not saying the kingdom is ONLY 'within', but it is also 'without', meaning it is all-pervading, all-encompassing. It is by the Spirit of God within that we further 'know' as we are 'known', and we re-cognize that we are sons of the Living Father. This 'Self-knowledge' (our true identity) is essential, for if we are uncognizant of such, truly we are 'poor', impoverished, being ignorant of truth. When the light of reality dawns upon us, we recognize ourselves for who we truly ARE. This is the priceless pearl, whose value cannot be measured, the treasure of divinity.

Furthermore, all knowledge or perception of any kind or quality, is subjectively processed, reflected and realized within one's own 'consciousness'.



pj

 

[JosephR]

~*~*~






I'd read the saying a bit more carefully before judging what it teaches. Treat it as a 'meditation'. First of all,...the verse is not saying the kingdom is ONLY 'within', but it is also 'without', meaning it is all-pervading, all-encompassing. It is by the Spirit of God within that we further 'know' as we are 'known', and we re-cognize that we are sons of the Living Father. This 'Self-knowledge' (our true identity) is essential, for it we are uncognizant of such, truly we are 'poor', impoverished, being ignorant of the truth. When the light of reality dawns upon us, we recognize ourselves for who we truly ARE. This is the priceless pearl, whose value cannot be measured, the treasure divine.

Furthermore, all knowledge or perception of any kind or quality, is subjectively processed, reflected and realized within one's own 'consciousness'.



pj

also I would add, the Kingdom of Heaven is truly at hand.. how do we enter it? through mental functions... through grace we access with faith.. a mental function,,truley the kingdom or at least the door way is mental...and the door.. is the mind... this will make sense to those who seek... Jesus told us to seek and ye will find,, I dare you to seek without your mind,, blind men can see this...

 

[Lon]

Sometimes the more something is fought against, the more stubborn the opposition becomes.

Also, I never said the GOT was scripture. However, the Word of God* can be seen and found in many places. That is, if one has the eye and ears to see and hear.

*John 21:25

Such is not license for anyone to fake a book and call it scripture. We should always be concerned about anything we find ATF. I think healthy skepticism the better part of not becoming tossed about by every wind and doctrine. As to stubborn? Perhaps if the man/woman is fleshly, otherwise they too are most careful to champion what is God's alone. We don't get to make anything up as we go. There are plenty of apocryphal books. Better a grain of salt than loose or flippant faith. We guard against heresy and heterodoxy because we must. An open mind is a lack of discernment. Again, I have no problem with reading, I have a problem with 1) Lack of discernment and 2) haughty independents/rebelliousness. Otherwise I have no contention with reading Thomas' alleged book.

That doesn't mean that God isn't my first and foremost authority. The bible is where my final say comes from. Maybe you have noticed that most of my input in this thread is associating the GOT sayings with scripture?

And discerning where it departs. Again, I'm not against reading it at all. I'm cautioning a few about canonical issues with it. :up:

At the same time, however, there are several layers of understanding to be had from the bible. Those who can only understand the simplest literal level cannot understand the highest secret mystical understandings... nor those who do.

I'm careful with such language because this is exactly how this GoT starts out. I see the Bible as a practical book. Indeed only the man with the Spirit can discern the things of God and we also must study but such mystery is in the controlled and closed confines of a full revelation (canon) from God, accessible to the Body of Christ.

 

[JosephR]

Such is not license for anyone to fake a book and call it scripture. We should always be concerned about anything we find ATF. I think healthy skepticism the better part of not becoming tossed about by every wind and doctrine. As to stubborn? Perhaps if the man/woman is fleshly, otherwise they too are most careful to champion what is God's alone. We don't get to make anything up as we go. There are plenty of apocryphal books. Better a grain of salt than loose or flippant faith. We guard against heresy and heterodoxy because we must. An open mind is a lack of discernment. Again, I have no problem with reading, I have a problem with 1) Lack of discernment and 2) haughty independents/rebelliousness. Otherwise I have no contention with reading Thomas' alleged book.

And discerning where it departs. Again, I'm not against reading it at all. I'm cautioning a few about canonical issues with it. :up:


I'm careful with such language because this is exactly how this GoT starts out. I see the Bible as a practical book. Indeed only the man with the Spirit can discern the things of God and we also must study but such mystery is in the controlled and closed confines of a full revelation (canon) from God, accessible to the Body of Christ.

we are past that, thats how we got here... thanks for your input..

love ya

now back to our studies

 

[JosephR]

(38) Jesus said: Many times have you desired to hear these words which I speak to you, and you have no other from whom to hear them. Days will come when you will seek me (and) you will not find me.

 

[JosephR]

this is a frighting saying indeed,,here are a few insights to start with..

Manichaean Psalm Book 187:28-29 states: "I have something to say, I have no one to whom to say it."
Acts of John 98 states: "John, there must be one person to hear these things from me, for I need one who is going to hear."

 

[Lon]

Lee doesn't address the support for Thomas earlier dating but only focuses on some 'evidence' for a later date,...all scholarly treatments must be considered. As for Lee Strobel's book "The case for Christ", Robert M Price challenges his 'evidence' in that book here. I'm still researching Roberts work.

Robert M Price isn't a Christian but an agnostic/skeptic. :down:

As noted earlier, Jesus did NOT authorize any part of the NT since it was canonized by religionists many years later, and any quotes validating the 'truth' of 'scripture' were referring to certain OT passages (Jesus validating the Jewish law and prophets).

Incorrect. He chose disciples and those disciples were given authority to write as they were moved along by the holy spirit. I wonder often at your Christian experience when you quote men like Price and say ignorant things such as this. You are not within orthodox Christianity.

As far as authority of the apostles is concerned, what we have mostly are letters attributed to Paul, the book of Acts record by Luke who was sympathetic towards Paul, while James, 1st and 2nd Peter are deemed 'pseudographical', so using 2nd Peter to prove Paul's writings are somehow equated with 'scripture' I find rather weak, also noting Paul's conflicts with Peter and the pillars of the Jerusalem Community on other occasions.

If I dictate a letter, it doesn't matter if someone else types it up. This is nitpicky. We do not see any opposition to any of Paul's letters from any Apostle and we have his testimony that he was chosen by Christ, thus authenticating beyond this one simple test of authority by Protestant standards. This is a seminary class btw.

Here, we're assuming again that the canonized gospels or the entire NT itself is the complete or final 'authority' for anything.
pj

Yep, which is why you are often left as an outsider-looking-in on a good many of these conversations. Your authority is whatever you (not God) decide you will-and-want-to submit to. God is the final authority and He has spoken through His Word alone. Unless you have any work that claims to be the very words of God/consistent in all its parts with scripture, you've bastardized your faith from God.

You don't get to dogmatically call those shots, He does, and He is dogmatic.

 

[Lon]

ahh if you meant "BOOK" of Thomas then I humbly apologize,,i thought you meant a derogatory term..

:up:

 

[JosephR]

parallel

Luke 10:23-24
And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

 

[Lon]

~*~*~
I'd read the saying a bit more carefully before judging what it teaches. Treat it as a 'meditation'. First of all,...the verse is not saying the kingdom is ONLY 'within', but it is also 'without', meaning it is all-pervading, all-encompassing.

Which is why I reject it. The kingdom was without them. It takes one becoming a new creation for the kingdom to dwell within. That is why I gave the quote from John 14 that the Spirit was 'with' them but would after Christ Jesus our Lord's death, be in them. The alleged quote is not correct theology unless we read it as Strobel sets it out: as a syriac summary from 200 A.D. with errors and not canonical.

It is by the Spirit of God within that we further 'know' as we are 'known',

:nono: This is why I say your Christianity-thinking is bastardized. 1 Corinthians 2:14. This thread of your's is not Christian but a Borg/bastardization of Buddhism/Hinduism/Muslim/Extra-terrestrials and some remote semblance to Christianity, making you a spiritual mutt that stands for very little and falls for about everything. What is clear from all of this is that Christ has no claim or authority over your life. You do not bow or obey Him but pay Him trivial homage and go about your own concerns and whims.

and we re-cognize that we are sons of the Living Father. This 'Self-knowledge' (our true identity) is essential, for if we are uncognizant of such, truly we are 'poor', impoverished, being ignorant of truth. When the light of reality dawns upon us, we recognize ourselves for who we truly ARE. This is the priceless pearl, whose value cannot be measured, the treasure of divinity.

Essentially Buddhism and Hinduism and not Christianity.

Furthermore, all knowledge or perception of any kind or quality, is subjectively processed, reflected and realized within one's own 'consciousness'.

pj

:nono: it is not else Christ is a liar. The man without the Spirit CANNOT know the things of God.
Joh 14:17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2Co 5:17 So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

 

[freelight]

Saying 38

Saying 38

(38) Jesus said: Many times have you desired to hear these words which I speak to you, and you have no other from whom to hear them. Days will come when you will seek me (and) you will not find me.

This impresses upon us the importance of taking the 'opportunity' to receive truth while it is 'available',....so this brings in an interesting 'space' and 'time' element, especially if we have the 'opportunity' to hear such from a living incarnate master.

In fact in the Great Tradition of universal truth-revealers, it is always a living teacher or 'avatar' that transmits truth directly to disciples so that nothing can take the place of that 'actual transmission', hence the great blessing and benefit in being in the presence of a realized teacher (one who is one with God and can communicate that divine state {or 'gnosis'} to others).



pj