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Romans 1:17 (KJV) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
The Gospel of the Kingdom and the plot twist.
- Thread starter Nick M
- Start date
If you will recall, the Restrainer of the Antichrist - God the Holy Spirit -- must be "taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can take total control. Since the Church (the saints of God) are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, they too must be "taken out the way". So in fact the Church will be in Heaven when the Antichrist is ruling over the earth for 3 1/2 years. Therefore it is only the Tribulation saints who are martyred. In fact there is nothing in Scripture to say that the whole Church is martyred.
Five parts to Christ's final instructions to the twelve:
1)
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
What were the 'whatsoever commands' to his Jewish disciples as recorded in MT, Mk, Lk, Jn and Acts 1?
Example:
Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying,The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do
Is that what you are doing?
2)
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Is that what you are doing?
3)
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power
Is that what you did?
4)
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
How's that working out for ya'?
5)
Act 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Are you one of the Apostle's whom He had chosen, to whom He had given those commandments?
Did you see the infallible proofs of his resurrection?
What is the nature of the 'Kingdom of GOD' to which the LORD was referring to?
Why was the Kingdom something to be restored to National Israel?
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Are you an eyewitness of Christ's physical resurrection circa 2000 years ago?
OSAS is not the modus operandi of the tribulation.
Enduring until the end is.
Jews who believe in what Jesus accomplished while He was here on earth?
They would be called Christians by religion.
Only Jewish by nationality.
Thanks, professor..
Religions.
Sects.
Adherents to one philosophy or another.
How many sects did Jesus found?
I can't agree with your take on 2 Thes 2:7-12.
You are equating your own power with the power of God.
It is the believers in God who will refuse the mark, and they are written of in Rev 6:9-11.
The fifth seal was opened and God says still more will be slain for their testimony.
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Can you reword or rephrase that please?
I don't get what you mean by "OSAS is not the modus operandi of the tribulation."
How does the tribulation have an operandi?
'Once saved always saved' is not the method of operation regarding salvation during the tribulation.
'Enduring until the end' is.
It is an assumption that the Holy Spirit is what is removed since the verse does not mention the Holy Spirit at all.
Not to mention that the Holy Spirit never has to be removed before any of the many antichrists that Jesus says are coming are revealed.
Neither did the Holy Spirit ever have to be removed before any wicked king/kingdom could persecute God's people.
Also, there is no reason for any of God's people to have to be removed from the earth in order for God to spare them from disasters.
Even in Revelation we see God's protective hand for His elect people, as we also see in other instances such as the plagues of Egypt and Noah with family in the arc.
It is believers that are martyred.
Been happening throughout all of history.
Nothing new under the sun.
Did you know that Paul is quoting the OT on the just living by faith?
In the context of the entire verse Habbakuk is saying the arrogant and proud have deep spiritual problems but those whole live by faith in God are exempt from the same issues for their faith in God works miracles in them..
Thanks for admitting that you ignore that portion of the Bible.
No, it just means that y'all have not clearly explained your position.
Which we've already established as the Justice of God, something you clear said does not exist.
????
Because he reacts to his own ideas about justice AS DOES EVERY other human.
It doesn't mean it's right... after all a supposedly wise man said this:
According to whom?
What a Muslim thinks to be the Justice of God, is not what a Christian thinks to be the Justice of God.
Exactly... Good luck finding that objectivity.
Thank you but it is not. The observation is based upon my understanding as yours is upon you.
This is why Revelation from the Holy Spirit is necessitated to understand the Justice of God. Difficulties arise, though, when two people disagree and yet both claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit.
Of course I have. But that doesn't mean it's not absurd.
We establish standards of rule to eliminate "exceptions." I point to the mars satellite that was lost because it was programmed to accept numbers "ruled" in centimeters, and the bright technicians sent the measurements in inches.
Exceptions don't prove anything except that humans are stupid.
Rhema
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There is more than one kind of prophecy. There is predictive prophecy where someone says something like "490 years from this event, the Messiah will come." The book of Daniel is full of this sort of prophesy. This, however, is not the predominate kind of prophecy in the bible. The other sort of prophecy isn't exactly what most people think of when they talk about something being prophetic. Psalms 22 and countless other passages throughout the Old Testament are examples of passages that God chose to "fulfill" in the sense that He brought things about in such a way that those events turned passages of scripture into prophecy.
So, to put it another way, when David wrote Psalms 22 he wasn't making a prediction. He was writing about his experience. The only reason we read it today and understand that its a Messianic passage is because God worked the events of Calvary such that they paralleled that passage. I believe He did so on purpose, by the way. I am not suggesting mere coincidence. God was very much involved in steering the events surrounding Calvary but the point is that had things turned out significantly differently, then God could have accomplished His goals a different way and it wouldn't ever have occurred to anyone to claim Psalms 22:16 as a failed prophecy because it wouldn't have been one and neither would almost every other passage you can think of to cite as being prophetic of Christ's death, burial and resurrection.
I would agree that the imagery of a tree is of supreme importance, likely much more than you are aware. Indeed! There is really good reason why the bible both begins and ends talking about trees - but that's a topic for another time.
First, even if your thesis were valid, it wouldn't necessitate a crucifixion because there's more than one way to die being hung from a tree.
More importantly, however, the importance of the imagery of a tree does not translate to Christ's death on a piece of wood being a logically necessary aspect of the plan of salvation. The importance of the imagery means only that its no surprise at all that God would choose to use that imagery to full effect.
Also, pay as close attention to what I'm not saying as to what I am. I am NOT saying that God didn't have a crucifixion in mind. In fact, I'm quite certain that He did as the time for the incarnation approached. In fact, I do not dispute even that He may well have had a crucifixion in mind right from the very beginning. I am simply saying that regardless of what God had in mind, it was not NECESSARY for things to unfold precisely as they did and an act of righteous repentance on the part of Israel certainly would not have exploded God's plan of salvation.
Clete
P.S. I want to just take a second to say that I appreciate the fact that you didn't simply show up and state your opinion as though it were a fact and leave it without any sort of supporting argument. It's so refreshing to find people who don't presume that their simply showing up and boldly pronouncing their belief is the equivalent to it having been written in stone. Personal opinions are fine but they get boring if people are either incapable or unwilling to substantiate them with some sort of argument. I look forward to time well spent discussing things with you!
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Time to play the context card.... Who are the THEY here, and why would Jesus have said this THEN?
I have done every one in the list. (Been poisoned twice.)
What about you?
Context. After Acts 2, there was no need for one to BE in Jerusalem for this to happen... Do you need examples? (See Acts 10.)
Quite well. Thank you.
And you?
(Your post seems to imply that it has not "worked out" for you, so that would beg the question, do you not believe the statement in John 20:23 to be false? Or does your faith limit you to believe that this only EVER applied to the twelve? What about the other apostles?)
MARTUS does not mean "witness." (Neither does "witness" mean eyewitness for that matter, proven by, if nothing else, that two different words actually exist.)
I am sorry that you arrive at wrong conclusions when using incorrect translations.
Rhema
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Body part
Yes, I did. The last part is the quote... the first part is something NEW. Paul often quoted the OT to explain it and expand on it, as he does there.
My point is the "from faith to faith" part.
God asks different people at different times and in different places to have different faiths.
Thanks for the clarification, and I agree with you.
But back to my question..."Do you think anyone who believes in OSAS will refuse the mark of the beast during the tribulation?
Yes, it is an assumption, but it is a valid assumption. Only God can restrain Satan and the Antichrist empowered by Satan. As an example, we see God restraining Satan in the book of Job.
I would disagree with this and here is why.
I would point you to Hebrews 11.
Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
Heb 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Heb 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthythey wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Would you, could you, consent to being sawn asunder rather than renouncing your faith? I'm not sure I could do that rather than give up my faith in God. The martyrs down through the ages have done this both in OT and NT times. During the Reformation thousands of people were burnt at the stake.
If God is the only one who can restrain Satan and the Antichrist, and you have biblical precedent to support that claim, then on what basis are you conceding that its an assumption that the Holy Spirit is that which is removed during the end times?
A position supported by evidence is not an assumption. The only person here I see assuming anything is Tambora. She's assuming that we've assumed something that she disagrees with. Why hand her the unearned ground?
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Are you looking for disciples of Christ, or are you looking for apostles?