The Fossil Fuel Industry Deceives the Public.

[CabinetMaker]

Wrong.

First of all, you're wrong about the economics of corn-ethanol. And you're dead wrong about those ethanol plants being shuttered. Only the old ones are closed. All those built in the last 10 years are fully operational.

Even so, that's not what I'm talking about.

Actually, no, I'm not wrong. Corn is a commodity, its price varies. Ethanol is not a commodity, it is generally delivered at a fixed price. When corn prices go up and ethanol prices don't, well, it did put several of the newest plants out of business. They sit shuttered in Kansas. Note that I did not say that all ethanol production ceased, there is still a demand for it but that demand is to low to support large scale production.

 

[MortSullivan]

Small scale versus large scale. You can buy a battery system for your home. They start at about $3,000. It is good for about 5.6 kilowatt-hours. A single solar site can produce upwards of 10megawatts. If you want to use a battery to back it up for say 10 hours then you would need 100 megawatt-hours of battery. That would be about 17,857 home battery systems. At $3,000 each that is roughly $53,571,000 worth of battery. IF you could justify the cost, where would you get the power to charge the batteries? You could charge them during the day but all the power would be needed to charge the batteries so instead of solar power being available during the day, you have made it available during the night.

Keep in mind that what works for the farmer wont work for large commerce, health care and industry. Their power requirements far exceed what batteries, solar cells and wind turbines can produce.

Your numbers on residential battery use are fanciful at best.

Now... where did I say anything about "large commerce, health care and industry"?

Let's estimate (conservatively) that 35 million Americans, living in Midwestern states that have easy access to corn, stop heating their homes with coal/natural gas/electricity/oil. Just their homes. Imagine it...

I think you're just scared to admit to the fact that the United States could EASILY cut our energy consumption by 30%-50%. I'm telling you how it could be done, but you don't like it because it would imperil your income.

 

[MortSullivan]

Actually, no, I'm not wrong. Corn is a commodity, its price varies. Ethanol is not a commodity, it is generally delivered at a fixed price. When corn prices go up and ethanol prices don't, well, it did put several of the newest plants out of business. They sit shuttered in Kansas. Note that I did not say that all ethanol production ceased, there is still a demand for it but that demand is to low to support large scale production.

Where did I say ANYTHING about heating homes with ethanol?

 

[Quetzal]

What do you need to know?

Every single home in the entire rural Midwest could be heated with corn stoves. It's not primitive technology, and it is extremely efficient and cost effective.

Also, every single home in the windy Midwest (and elsewhere) could run on 24-volt DC electricity, charged by a small wind generator and stored in batteries. It's what farmers were doing 75 years ago.

Do those two things and you've made a radical change in our energy picture. And that doesn't include any of the "efficiency" things my company does with buildings.

What would you suggest for homes that do not have the wind power for a generator?

 

[MortSullivan]

What would you suggest for homes that do not have the wind power for a generator?

Stay on grid.

I'm not suggesting that every home is going to do this. I'm saying that it COULD be done. I'm also talking percentages. Think of the difference it would make for our antiquated power grid if - say - 18% of all homes were no longer energy reliant?

Also, if the federal government would put a FRACTION as much subsidy money into small residential wind generation, as they've put in commercial wind generation, millions of homes across the country would already be self-sufficient.

But self-sufficiency isn't what our government wants.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Your numbers on residential battery use are fanciful at best.

Tesla Battery Wall - My numbers are based on what Tesla said they can do.

Now... where did I say anything about "large commerce, health care and industry"?

You didn't. And that's the problem. The electrical grid is very large interconnected system.

Let's estimate (conservatively) that 35 million Americans, living in Midwestern states that have easy access to corn, stop heating their homes with coal/natural gas/electricity/oil. Just their homes. Imagine it...

Burning corn for home heating and power! Awesome idea. Its not like we need it for cattle feed or corn syrup or use it as a major export to other countries. Yep, burning corn would not have any negative effects on society if you don't mind expensive beef and expensive drinks and bankrupt farmers.

I think you're just scared to admit to the fact that the United States could EASILY cut our energy consumption by 30%-50%. I'm telling you how it could be done, but you don't like it because it would imperil your income.

I'm not scared to admit that. We could. Look at all the power vultures around your house. Phone chargers and entertainment systems and anything with a clock or glowing light that is ALWAYS on. It adds up and conserving energy will save you money. That is a completely different topic that energy sources.

 

[Quetzal]

Stay on grid.

I'm not suggesting that every home is going to do this. I'm saying that it COULD be done. In fact, if the federal government would put a FRACTION as much subsidy money into small residential wind generation, as they've put in commercial wind generation, millions of homes across the country would already be self-sufficient.

But self-sufficiency isn't what our government wants.

I am genuinely curious because corn (pellet) stoves are something I have heard about but really don't know much about. Certainly worth looking in to. Let me ask you this, how much would a household have to invest to do this? Do you think it is financially feasible?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Where did I say ANYTHING about heating homes with ethanol?

Where did I?

 

[MortSullivan]

Tesla Battery Wall - My numbers are based on what Tesla said they can do.
Please explain to me how farmers were doing what you and Tesla are saying is impossible?

You didn't. And that's the problem. The electrical grid is very large interconnected system.
Thanks for your blind all-or-nothing thinking. That's part of your problem.

Burning corn for home heating and power! Awesome idea. Its not like we need it for cattle feed or corn syrup or use it as a major export to other countries. Yep, burning corn would not have any negative effects on society if you don't mind expensive beef and expensive drinks and bankrupt farmers.
Now you're just talking insanity. No facts, no evidence of anything. Just insane ranting, in an attempt to be sarcastic.

Obviously you're not a farmer, and have no connection to agriculture. If either of those things were true, you'd know that today's farmers are producing 3x the bushels per acre of corn that they were producing just 50 years ago. But yeah, you just keep right on believing that there's no corn to use for anything but feeding cows...

I'm not scared to admit that. We could. Look at all the power vultures around your house. Phone chargers and entertainment systems and anything with a clock or glowing light that is ALWAYS on. It adds up and conserving energy will save you money. That is a completely different topic that energy sources.
Those are no power vultures around MY house.

The bottom line is that if we cut energy consumption by 30%, alternative sources of energy become irrelevant. THAT is what scares you.

 

[MortSullivan]

Where did I?

You don't dance the dance well, so give it up.

I talked about heating homes with corn. Without even thinking, you "went off" on corn ethanol. Now you're just trying to save face.

You could just as well admit it.

 

[MortSullivan]

I am genuinely curious because corn (pellet) stoves are something I have heard about but really don't know much about. Certainly worth looking in to. Let me ask you this, how much would a household have to invest to do this? Do you think it is financially feasible?

Do you live where you have access to corn? And I'm not talking about going and buying a bag somewhere. I'm talking about being able to buy corn right from a farmer. If you don't have a ready source of corn, this isn't going to be helpful.

That said, the cost of a corn furnace is just about like the cost of a natural gas or LP gas furnace. The stoves themselves run from $1500 - $5000, depending on what you want.


All joking/snarkyness aside, if you're in the right area I'd suggest you do some serious research on it. It's probably not cost-effective to just replace a perfectly good system. But if you need to replace your furnace anyway, this would be a good time to consider corn heat.

 

[CabinetMaker]

You don't dance the dance well, so give it up.

I talked about heating homes with corn. Without even thinking, you "went off" on corn ethanol. Now you're just trying to save face.

You could just as well admit it.

You seem to forget that I also pointed out that corn is a basic commodity. Taking corn out of the food markets drives up the cost of a great many foods. This was demonstrated in the ethanol rush of a few years ago. Whether you burn corn for heat or mash it for ethanol, the end result is that food prices spike.

Colorado currently has a whole bunch of beetle kill standing in our forests. Seems to me that an enterprising should could figure out how to convert those to pellets for pellet stoves.

 

[MortSullivan]

You seem to forget that I also pointed out that corn is a basic commodity. Taking corn out of the food markets drives up the cost of a great many foods. This was demonstrated in the ethanol rush of a few years ago. Whether you burn corn for heat or mash it for ethanol, the end result is that food prices spike.

Colorado currently has a whole bunch of beetle kill standing in our forests. Seems to me that an enterprising should could figure out how to convert those to pellets for pellet stoves.

You're wrong about the corn thing. Just wrong. I know you don't believe it, but it's true.

Now, about all that wood in Colorado... Why make pellets out of it? Why don't you guys just use it to heat your homes?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Tesla Battery Wall - My numbers are based on what Tesla said they can do.
Please explain to me how farmers were doing what you and Tesla are saying is impossible? We never said impossible, we said impracticable.

You didn't. And that's the problem. The electrical grid is very large interconnected system.
Thanks for your blind all-or-nothing thinking. That's part of your problem. If you think doing something in one small part of the system does not effect the whole system you are gravely mistaken. Utilities pay me lots of money to assess what impact a new energy source (wind, solar, bio-gas) will have on their system when connected. Go off grid, no problem. How your wind generator to the grid, problem.

Burning corn for home heating and power! Awesome idea. Its not like we need it for cattle feed or corn syrup or use it as a major export to other countries. Yep, burning corn would not have any negative effects on society if you don't mind expensive beef and expensive drinks and bankrupt farmers.
Now you're just talking insanity. No facts, no evidence of anything. Just insane ranting, in an attempt to be sarcastic.

Obviously you're not a farmer, and have no connection to agriculture. If either of those things were true, you'd know that today's farmers are producing 3x the bushels per acre of corn that they were producing just 50 years ago. But yeah, you just keep right on believing that there's no corn to use for anything but feeding cows...
When the ethanol craze hit the US several years ago there was a huge increase in the cost of Mesa flour south of the border. Used to produce a staple food in Mexico, the increased cost of Mesa flour resulted in a huge out cry from Mexican's who couldn't afford to eat. That surplus that the farmers produce feeds the world.


I'm not scared to admit that. We could. Look at all the power vultures around your house. Phone chargers and entertainment systems and anything with a clock or glowing light that is ALWAYS on. It adds up and conserving energy will save you money. That is a completely different topic that energy sources.
Those are no power vultures around MY house. Bully for you! There are at mine.

The bottom line is that if we cut energy consumption by 30%, alternative sources of energy become irrelevant. THAT is what scares you.

Why would that scare me? And alternative energy sources do not become irrelevant, we just delay the necessity of developing them. Like it or not, our little Earth is finite globe with a finite amount of available fuel. It will not last forever. It would be nice if my grand children have as reliable an electric system as we have.

 

[CabinetMaker]

You're wrong about the corn thing. Just wrong. I know you don't believe it, but it's true.

I will take back what I have said about corn. I did a little digging and see that ethanol production has continued to increase and that corn prices, while they are up, have fallen from a peek in 2007.

Now, about all that wood in Colorado... Why make pellets out of it? Why don't you guys just use it to heat your homes?

EPA

 

[MortSullivan]

Tesla Battery Wall - My numbers are based on what Tesla said they can do.
Please explain to me how farmers were doing what you and Tesla are saying is impossible? We never said impossible, we said impracticable.

You didn't. And that's the problem. The electrical grid is very large interconnected system.
Thanks for your blind all-or-nothing thinking. That's part of your problem. If you think doing something in one small part of the system does not effect the whole system you are gravely mistaken. Utilities pay me lots of money to assess what impact a new energy source (wind, solar, bio-gas) will have on their system when connected. Go off grid, no problem. How your wind generator to the grid, problem.

Burning corn for home heating and power! Awesome idea. Its not like we need it for cattle feed or corn syrup or use it as a major export to other countries. Yep, burning corn would not have any negative effects on society if you don't mind expensive beef and expensive drinks and bankrupt farmers.
Now you're just talking insanity. No facts, no evidence of anything. Just insane ranting, in an attempt to be sarcastic.

Obviously you're not a farmer, and have no connection to agriculture. If either of those things were true, you'd know that today's farmers are producing 3x the bushels per acre of corn that they were producing just 50 years ago. But yeah, you just keep right on believing that there's no corn to use for anything but feeding cows...
When the ethanol craze hit the US several years ago there was a huge increase in the cost of Mesa flour south of the border. Used to produce a staple food in Mexico, the increased cost of Mesa flour resulted in a huge out cry from Mexican's who couldn't afford to eat. That surplus that the farmers produce feeds the world.


I'm not scared to admit that. We could. Look at all the power vultures around your house. Phone chargers and entertainment systems and anything with a clock or glowing light that is ALWAYS on. It adds up and conserving energy will save you money. That is a completely different topic that energy sources.
Those are no power vultures around MY house. Bully for you! There are at mine.




Why would that scare me? And alternative energy sources do not become irrelevant, we just delay the necessity of developing them. Like it or not, our little Earth is finite globe with a finite amount of available fuel. It will not last forever. It would be nice if my grand children have as reliable an electric system as we have.

I cannot even begin to count the self-contradictions in this response.

 

[MortSullivan]

I will take back what I have said about corn. I did a little digging and see that ethanol production has continued to increase and that corn prices, while they are up, have fallen from a peek in 2007.

EPA

Corn is currently about half the price, per bushel, that it was at its peak. And that peak was an absolutely never heard of before peak. Corn had been around $2 per bushel for decades, then suddenly it skyrocketed to over $7 per bushel. And it really didn't seem to follow a supply & demand cycle. Now it's about $3.75.

The other thing to remember is that, with advances in agriculture, American farmers are producing more corn per acre than ever before in the history of the world. It's amazing.

Regarding ethanol, I don't believe corn is the best product to use. Switchgrass is better, as would be sugar cane or sugar beets. I'm not sure why those commodities have not been pursued.


Meanwhile, using #2 corn as a home-heating fuel remains an EXCELLENT option for millions of Midwestern homes. Even with corn at $4 per bushel, it is one of cheapest forms of heat.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I cannot even begin to count the self-contradictions in this response.

I'll do it for you: 0 (zero)

 

[Quetzal]

Do you live where you have access to corn? And I'm not talking about going and buying a bag somewhere. I'm talking about being able to buy corn right from a farmer. If you don't have a ready source of corn, this isn't going to be helpful.

That said, the cost of a corn furnace is just about like the cost of a natural gas or LP gas furnace. The stoves themselves run from $1500 - $5000, depending on what you want.


All joking/snarkyness aside, if you're in the right area I'd suggest you do some serious research on it. It's probably not cost-effective to just replace a perfectly good system. But if you need to replace your furnace anyway, this would be a good time to consider corn heat.

I'm not, unfortunately. I am on the east coast but I love talking about different ideas when it comes to saving energy and being less reliant on the grid. When I have my own place I do plan to have a fireplace of some sort or picking up a pellet stove if it makes sense.

 

[Alate_One]

There is no need for humanity to "go back to the stone age" to avert climate change. We already have the technology to get us to a much better place than we are now.