The Fall of Satan, Adam, and Eve, and the Fallen Angels

[JudgeRightly]

Moving this to its own thread... More responses to come after this post.

Idolater, there is so much wrong with your post it's hard to even know where to begin. I'm not sure where you got your version of Biblical events from, but it clearly wasn't the Bible, and reads more like a fantasy novel that's only LOOSELY based on the Bible.

Have you . . . ever thought about how Satan the Evil One had access to Eve's mind even before she or Adam ever actually, objectively sinned?

No, because the Bible tells us that he was in the garden from the beginning.

That means God's perfect creation for man, was a World with demons.

No.

God's perfect creation had no demons in it.

Demons are... wait for it...

Fallen angels.

The FALL happened in the Garden.

How does this square with God being just, and with God not being the author of all sin?

It doesn't, because it isn't an accurate representation of what God created.

I'm saying that even if the Devil rebelled and that's why the Tempter was there in the Garden, that still poses a problem to any conception of God's holiness I've ever heard of.

The problem is that you're assuming Satan had already fallen by the end of the creation week.

Once you get rid of that assumption, the entire problem goes away.

In what conception of divine benevolence does God create a Universe with demons, and say, "Here you go ---- Good luck?"

There is none, because that's not what happened.

Couldn't He have cleaned it up before handing it over to Adam and his wife?

There was nothing to clean up to begin with.

The answer is No, and this is extremely significant to theology.

Your starting premises are false, and therefore the conclusion is irrelevant.

Demons were crawling around even at the beginning.

They weren't demons at the time. They became demons when they fell with Lucifer.

That was the World, version 1.0

2.0 is the one without demons. But this World was always supposed to have demons.

No, it wasn't.

This is absolutely required by logic.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

There were no demons in existence by day 6.

There were only angels and (ignoring the entirety of the animal kingdom for a moment) and humans, and only two of those.

As stated above, Demons are just fallen angels.

Satan was supposed to tempt them, and they were told, "Say No to Satan,"

This begs the question that Satan had some predetermined action to perform, which is simply not the case.

Also, Adam and Eve (if that's who you're talking about) were not, in fact, told "say no to Satan." Adam was told by God, "Do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or you will die."

Somewhere along the line, as what happens with Chinese whispers (see my quoted post below), that somehow got perverted to "you shall not eat of it nor shall you touch it," as Eve claimed.

but they didn't listen to God, and did listen to the Devil instead.

Eve listened to the Lucifer and ate of the tree, because she had no reason to doubt him. Adam listened to His wife, but knew better because He was the one told by God NOT to eat of the tree.

Eve sinned in that she broke what she thought was the law, and thus condemned herself.

Adam sinned in that he broke the law given to Him by God, and thus condemned all of mankind.

The Lamb was slain at the foundation of the World. This is why.

No, the Lamb was not slain at the foundation of the world. Christ died ONCE for all, around 30 A.D. This is a common (false) cliche. But that's a topic for another discussion.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Interesting post. Consider this:

Rev 12:
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: ...
... 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This describes the events of Genesis 3.

Along side this:

Zec 13:
7Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

These are prophecies that pertain ONLY to Israel, as a warning to them in their rebellion against God.

Is it possible that whereas 1/3 of the angels fell from grace 1/3 of us will fall to grace and that this is a part of the point and purpose of the situation of which you speak?

The simple answer is no.

There's no logical pathway from the former to the latter, simply because they are completely unrelated events.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I lean towards the viewpoint that Satan's actual rebellion happened in the garden when he tempted mankind to rebel because Ezekiel 28 tells of him being in the garden and was blameless until unrighteousness was found in him and we don't see a judgement being pronounced on Satan until he tempted mankind in the garden.

Correct.

I believe Adam & Eve lived among the angelic host in the garden, the mountain of God, and that the angelic host was to watch over mankind since the angelic host was sometimes referred to as "watchers".

Correct.

I believe Adam & Eve knew that Satan (the serpent) was of the angelic host and that's why Eve didn't have any fear or discomfort talking with him,

A more rational explanation cannot be found.

I don't believe that God ever expected his creation to have the perfect wisdom that God had, and thus were always prone to failure, and thus God already established a remedy plan when He created.

AMEN!

 

[Right Divider]

@JudgeRightly This idea that God created demons on earth at the beginning reminds me of his bizarre theory that God created the ground with fossils already in it. It's all rather crazy and I wonder where he gets this nonsense.

 

[JudgeRightly]

So that's why he was in the Garden? is what you're saying? Because he got kicked out of Heaven? So the only realm left was Earth?

No.

Satan was in the garden, which WAS heaven, where God dwelt, a paradise, the mountain of God.

The Garden of Eden was only one place on earth. Yes, the earth was a paradise, but Eden was a special place on earth on a mountain, the one where God lived.

He was kicked out of heaven, out of the garden, into the wider earth. He fell from heaven (the Garden), and now roams the earth, seeking whom he may devour.

Why couldn't God have just killed him?

Because Satan, like humans, was created by God to exist forever.

This is why I'm saying it's very important for theology to deal with this Scriptural fact of the Accuser's presence in Eden.

Done.

That was easy.

But 1/3 of whom (or what; as in, body, or people, or population)?

1/3 of the angels fell.

Does anybody know what fraction of the House of Israel believed in and followed Our Lord in that first Church?

No number is given, because Israel had a corporate relationship with God, not an individual-based relationship. It was all or nothing.

1/3 of 12 is 4 ---- is 4 /12 meaningful? Were four of the Twelve Apostles particularly "refined?" How about 4 of the 12 tribes?

No, the entire nation will be refined. Not a portion of it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

No. It would appear from other passages that he still has access to the heavenly realm for a while longer. The first such passage may be found in Job 1.

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

At this point he appears to have access to both heaven and earth. Another interesting but more oblique passage is in the last chapter of Ephesians:

11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The word here translated "high" is defined as follows:

ἐπουράνιος epouránios, ep-oo-ran'-ee-os; from G1909 and G3772; above the sky:—celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high.

1. existing in heaven
   1. things that take place in heaven
   2. the heavenly regions
      1. heaven itself, the abode of God and angels
      2. the lower heavens, of the stars
      3. the heavens, of the clouds
   3. the heavenly temple or sanctuary
2. of heavenly origin or nature

This term occurs in 4 other places in Ephesians and is translated "heavenly" in all occasions except here. This leads me to suspect some translator's doctrinal toes got stepped on here thus necessitating this apparent mistranslation.

I don't particularly disagree with anything here...

The more extensive and conclusive scriptures on this subject are to be found in Revelation.I won't reproduce it here and clog up this thread but I offered the scriptures I though(t) relevant around Rev 12 that cover Satan's expulsion from heaven and the 3 1/2 time period he runs amok here on earth before being banished to his pit for 1000 years in my thread concerning the two resurrections.

Satan being cast from heaven is a description of the events in Genesis 3. He is currently roaming the earth. He will eventually be banished to the pit for 1000 years in the end times.

It's literally as simple as that.

The study of the terms "one third" and "a third" is a fascinating one and might hold some clues as it concerns your questions.

RSR: Brought to You By the Number Three | KGOV.com

kgov.com

 

[JudgeRightly]

OK. I guess that does avoid the problem of why God would give the World to Adam and Eve, with demons included then. Because there were no demons until Satan fell/rebelled, right there in Genesis. That would also explain why God would call His creation "Very Good," because at that point, it was. e4e

Correct.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Do you think any of this bears on Luke 10?
"17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” 18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

Keep reading. Jesus is giving context for what He is about to say:

Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 10:17-20 - New King James Version

The Seventy Return with Joy - Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of...

www.biblegateway.com

Satan (the Serpent) fell, now look, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, over all the the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

One could argue the number 666 represents 2/3 (666 being roughly 2/3 of 1000). I'll check the Scripture for other places the term appears.

Interesting point...

I wonder if Bob considered this... I'll have to listen to the study on Revelation again at some point.

 

[JudgeRightly]

However there are some that look at it through the perspective that God was an unfit father by placing His children in a playpen where He kew there was poisonous fruit.

One can make God appear good or bad depending on which perspective they view the story from.

Which is why it's important to know what the Bible ACTUALLY says, rather than going off of what we think it says.

And then there is differing perspectives on who actually planted the tree with the poisonous fruit in the garden

What "tree with the poisonous fruit"?

Surely you don't mean the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

If so, do you mean "poisonous" literally or figuratively?

If the latter, ok, sure, I guess.

But if the former, I'd ask you to provide your source that says it was literally poisonous, because that goes against what the Bible says that God said, which is that the entire creation, which includes the Tree, was "very good."

Poison is harmful, and not "very good," and we know there was no death before the Fall.

since we have scripture saying that the devil also plants seeds (Matthew 13:24-30),

Figurative seeds. As in, planting ideas in people's minds that grow and become tares.

and we also have scripture saying that every tree that was not planted by God will be rooted up (Matthew 15:13)

Again, a figurative use.

He's speaking of teachings not given by Himself, as opposed to the false teachings of the Pharisees.

and we see that the final heavenly kingdom in Revelation has the tree of life but not the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

That's because the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was destroyed at the start of the Flood in Genesis 7.

This is described in Ezekiel 31.

So it's good to talk through all the perspectives.
I'm glad we can do that here.

TOL is definitely the best place to have good theological discussions.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Seems to me that without demons "whispering" to Eve,

There were no demons whispering to Eve.

that she could have obeyed God and avoided that tree.

I place the blame on the fact that somehow, she came to believe that if she even touched the tree or its fruit, that she would die, which isn't what God said at all.

Certainly the Serpent is an important character in the story's plot.

Indeed!

I said already this is important for theology but it's just as important for theism generally. Why evil? Why suffering? Why? Problem of evil. Theodicy.

Will Duffy In Studio on Matt Slick and the Debate | KGOV.com

kgov.com

If Satan planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (which btw is basically what we today term "moral philosophy" or ethics) then we have God's command to Adam and Eve following Satan's fall, ch(r)onologically.

This begs the question that Satan is the one who planted the tree.

God is the one who planted the tree (cf. Genesis 2:8-9, 3:6; Ezekiel 31).

This prompts again the question c. "Why didn't God just dispatch Satan then? and uproot that tree right then?"

Consider: https://www.gotquestions.org/tree-knowledge-good-evil.html

 

[JudgeRightly]

We can't second guess God, but we can speculate why.

Perhaps it was because through Adam & Eve generations of children any of them could eventually screw up somehow since Adam & Eve screwed up despite being created "good" and in a lovely garden in fellowship with God Himself.
Might as well let everyone know right up front that those screw ups can happen to anyone no matter how lovely or chaotic a situation they live in, but to not fear because God has already planned the remedy and for you to know that He loves you no matter how imperfect you are.

I know that as a child I would feel the greatest love from my parents when I did something that hurt and disappointed them and they would hug me close and say "That's ok, we love you anyway and will find a way to work it out".

But that's just one perspective.

I find this sort of response to be flaky and wishy-washy at best...

But that might just be because I'm a man and as a man I think more in rational terms than emotional ones...

Even so, this doesn't seem like a very well thought out response, considering that the lesson to be learned is that actions have consequences, and God cannot justly protect people from the consequences of their actions, but He DOES provide a solution.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I don't know that I would necessarily go there because of something Tam reminded me of, namely, the absence of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil after the second resurrection.

Supra, RE: Ezekiel 31

It reminded me of the fact that several of the original temple ordinances offered in Leviticus are absent from the ordinances concerning the millennial temple described in Ez 40-48. These observances are all prophetic and at the time of the millennial temple some of them will have been fulfilled and no longer pertinent. It could be that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil falls into that category as well in that it is no longer pertinent then but was at the time of it's existence and not necessarily evil, per se, but a part of God's plan that had served it's purpose.

It's no longer pertinent because it no longer exists, since it was destroyed in the Flood.

 

[JudgeRightly]

They knew it was wrong after they were told, which was BEFORE they committed the offense or else there would not have been an offense - by definition.


Well there's your opinions and then there's God's own word. The whole of Romans 5 is false if what you say is correct.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)​

​

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.​

​

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Quoting this here for context and so Clete gets pinged.

 

[JudgeRightly]

God told them not to eat of the tree.

Disobeying Him was and is wrong.

They knew it was wrong simply by being told that they shouldn't do it.

This isn't hard, FZ.



Not quite.

God told Adam that eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was forbidden.

Eve was not told this by God.

Instead, most likely, she was told by Adam to not eat of it nor to touch it. She, and likely Adam, put a law around the law, so that they would not break the law given by God. (This is a common theme throughout the Bible, by the way, putting a law around the law, for example, the Jews implemented a law that only up to 39 lashes should be given, so that they would never even accidentally violate God's command to give up to 40 lashes in punishment.) Satan used this to deceive Eve (and thus fell himself) by telling her that she wouldn't die... but left out the part he was referring to, that being "touching the fruit."

God said: "If you eat of the fruit, dying you shall die."
Eve said: "God has said If one eats the fruit or touches it, he will die."
Satan said: "You shall not surely die"... but left out "if you touch the fruit."

A very clever deception, if you ask me, one based on a falsehood AND a truth.

God did not say "nor shall you touch it." Eve attributed to God what God did not say, likely because it's what Adam told her.



She knew only what Adam told her, because she was not told by God directly.

This is my response which I referred to in my opening post.

 

[Clete]

Quoting this here for context and so Clete gets pinged.

Have I missed something?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Have I missed something?

Not that I'm aware of. I was just replying to this discussion in a different thread, since it was somewhat off topic from the original post.

 

[Gary K]

I disagree with JR.

Matthew 24: 17 ¶And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Jesus' response to the 70 says a lot. They are rejoicing about being able to cast out demons and His response is, so, I saw Satan fall from heaven.

Revelation 12: 1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

This passage is clearly referring to the devil and it says Satan deceived 1/3 of the angels. Do you really think he did that in a very short time?

 

[JudgeRightly]

I disagree with JR.

No one cares.

Matthew 24: 17 ¶And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Why do you people keep leaving out the rest of what He said?

Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 10:17, Luke 10:18, Luke 10:19, Luke 10:20 - New King James Version

The Seventy Return with Joy - Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”

www.biblegateway.com

Jesus' response to the 70 says a lot. They are rejoicing about being able to cast out demons and His response is, so, I saw Satan fall from heaven.

And then He continues and makes a lesson out of it. One which you seem to want to ignore.

Jesus wasn't bragging.

He was warning them to not get haughty.

Revelation 12: 1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

This passage is clearly referring to the devil and it says Satan deceived 1/3 of the angels.

Correct.

Do you really think he did that in a very short time?

Where did I say he did?

All I said was that the passage describes the events of Genesis 3.

 

[Gary K]

I still disagree

No one cares.



Why do you people keep leaving out the rest of what He said?

Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 10:17, Luke 10:18, Luke 10:19, Luke 10:20 - New King James Version

The Seventy Return with Joy - Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”

www.biblegateway.com

And then He continues and makes a lesson out of it. One which you seem to want to ignore.

Jesus wasn't bragging.

He was warning them to not get haughty.



Correct.



Where did I say he did?

All I said was that the passage describes the events of Genesis 3.

I still disagree. You're the only person I know of who hold your position.

 

[Clete]

I disagree with JR.

Matthew 24: 17 ¶And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Jesus' response to the 70 says a lot. They are rejoicing about being able to cast out demons and His response is, so, I saw Satan fall from heaven.

Revelation 12: 1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

This passage is clearly referring to the devil and it says Satan deceived 1/3 of the angels. Do you really think he did that in a very short time?

It probably took him about a week to pull it off.