The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
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Z Man
New member
No it doesn't.
John 1:12-13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.
Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
Acts 13:48
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Man has no free will in reguards to their own salvation. No man is able to love God on their own accord.
Romans 8:6-8
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
To love God, one must be born again. A carnal mind cannot please God. God doesn't love us because we first loved Him; rather, we love Him because He first loved us.
You are stating that people go to heaven because of their smarter intellect than those idiots who rejected God. What makes you a better person in that you chose the right path and those who go to hell didn't?
The Bible clearly teaches us over and over again that all have fallen short of the glory of God; that each and every one of us has sinned. Because of our carnal minds, we are slaves to sin and cannot please God. For us to understand, believe, and follow Christ, He must save us. For everyone rejects God and rebels. You are no better than the individual who rejects God and goes to hell. Because God saved you, you choose to follow Him and love Him.
We are saved by God's will; not ours.
This verse merely says that those whom God has promised salvation will come to repentance. Peter says that He is not slack in concerning His promise, but is lonsuffering to who? To us-ward; meaning the church; the elect of God who Peter was writing to. That's God's will; that He saves all of the elect and none should perish.
If you read this as God's will is to save everyone, then you must believe in universalism. Because to state that God's will is no one should perish, and yet some people go to hell because of their free will, is to say mans' will is higher than God's. This is blasphemy.
Job 42:1-2
Then Job answered the Lord: "I know that thou can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted."
Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing; and He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, "What are you doing?"
The key to seeking God is whether or not you are the elect.
Well, if you have the faith to seek God, and Joe who went to hell didn't, where did you get your faith from? Yourself? Are you that smart?
Anybody as per Jew or Gentile. Salvation is not limited to just the Jews.
You must not incur that anybody means everybody, because we both agree that not everyone is saved.
How sad. If salvation is in our own hands, who can be saved? Who has done anything better as to recieve favor from God? How poor a situation we all would be in if that was the case.
But thank God it's not that way!
People go to hell because they deserve it. Who hasn't sinned?
If God did not save you, you'd go to hell to. And if salvation was up to us, then you'd go to hell as well; because you wouldn't be able to choose God in your carnal mind. You are a slave to sin and you cannot free yourself.
God saves whom He wills, and no one can complain either way. If you are saved, you cannot boast because it was all God. And if you are not saved, you can't complain because you will get what you justly deserve.
Z Man
New member
The amazing part about God's grace is that He does save and He's not obligated to. It's a free gift, and there is nothing we did or can do to recieve it. That's why it's so amazing.
God's not obligated to save anyone. The fact that He does seems to make His justice a joke. Everyone should go to hell.
I agree. And if God let that be the case and didn't send His Son to earth, then His justice would be carried out in that every single person on earth would go to Hell. That's justice, because no one deserves to be saved...
And thank God it doesn't have anything to do with a person's will! For if it did, who would be saved?
All men have fallen short of God's glory. Doesn't matter how many good deeds you think you've done, or how perfect you think you have lived your life, all men have sinned. And with sin, one must pay the consequences, which is death.
But thank God He has paid for my debt!
Well, it's not really my sense of justice; it's God. His justice does seem iffy, in that He can save people. That's when His justice becomes mercy....
Z Man
New member
People don't just go to hell because God "feels" like it; they go there because of their sins. No one has lived a good life, and to be perfect with His justice, God has decreed that the punishment for sin be death. Therefore, if you sin, you will die; forever.
Are you perfect?
Z Man
New member
Re: Re: Grow up Curt...
Re: Re: Grow up Curt...
I'm simply here to warn you of your sins and to tell you that unless you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, you are on a path straight to hell, and your good life will not save you....
Re: Re: Grow up Curt...
Well, as long as you believe elected is spelled "eletced", then I guess you'll always believe that....Originally posted by Curtsibling
Ha ha!
I think you'll find my spelling is impeccable.
That you are prideful and think your good life will save you. But you fail to realize that you are not a "good person"; you are just as bad and guilty as Hitler, in that you have committed sins as well.
I'm simply here to warn you of your sins and to tell you that unless you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, you are on a path straight to hell, and your good life will not save you....
Z Man
New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Grow up Curt...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Grow up Curt...
Who are those who believe? Jesus said only those whom the Father has chosen:
John 6:65
And He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
Matthew 11:27
"No one knows the Father except the Son and anyone whom the Son chooses to reveal Him."
Re: Re: Re: Re: Grow up Curt...
Exactly! That's why Paul says unless one believes in their heart and confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, they are not saved.
Who are those who believe? Jesus said only those whom the Father has chosen:
John 6:65
And He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
Matthew 11:27
"No one knows the Father except the Son and anyone whom the Son chooses to reveal Him."
LightSon
New member
Justice for Shima
Justice for Shima
Shima,
We are clearly worlds apart in the definitions and assumptions we are making. Out of respect for you, I want to temper my responses. Getting into the standard tit for tat will not move either of us ahead.
There are many definitions to "justice" which either of us could employ.
YOu may not like my development of this concept; I already alluded to it. Forgive me, but I need to go to my rule book.
God is the judge of the earth; He always does right. Please consider and appreciate that the earth is God's creation and hence it is within His purview, judicially and otherwise. In Earthly courts, judges are answerable to higher courts. There is no higher court than God, so for you or society to presume to bring God into court and judge His methods is less than wise.
God's whim, in itself, says a great deal. I realize you meant to slight God, but within the confines of His nature you are correct:
Psalm 115:3 "But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased."
In centuries past, kingdom subjects could be executed for looking cross at the King. God is the king of kings. My God is Holy and happens to have spoken the universe into existence. One which such awesome power and credentials can do as He pleases. It is ironic that God has afforded us life, breath and free will to pontifcate about Him and what we would do if He were in our court.
Thankfully, what God pleases are within certain confines. I won't digress there too far except to say I believe God to be morally good. I recognize this is difficult for you to accept, as you have endless anecdotal information which you think argues contrariwise. I would gently advocate against drawing hasty conclusions about what life's mysteries suggest about God. We can theorize and guess all day about God or not-God, but in the end, there remains ontological certitude. That is, what we believe doesn't change what is.
I do not claim to know God in any ultimate sense. But I do claim to know a fragment about Him and I do claim to have a nascent relationship with Him. Are you disposed to immediately reject whatever a Christian says?
Justice for Shima
Shima,
We are clearly worlds apart in the definitions and assumptions we are making. Out of respect for you, I want to temper my responses. Getting into the standard tit for tat will not move either of us ahead.
There are many definitions to "justice" which either of us could employ.
You seem to want to define "justice" according to the sensibilities of society.
YOu may not like my development of this concept; I already alluded to it. Forgive me, but I need to go to my rule book.
There is a strong connection between justice, righteousness & truth. God by His very nature always does what is right.
God is the judge of the earth; He always does right. Please consider and appreciate that the earth is God's creation and hence it is within His purview, judicially and otherwise. In Earthly courts, judges are answerable to higher courts. There is no higher court than God, so for you or society to presume to bring God into court and judge His methods is less than wise.
Again, similar answer. God makes laws for mankind, but is not (necessarily) under those laws Himself. Being God has its prerogatives. It is not lawful for us to destory cities, in most cases. God has destroyed many a city by earthquake, volcano or flood. You might accuse Him of wrongdoing, but only for a time.
God's whim, in itself, says a great deal. I realize you meant to slight God, but within the confines of His nature you are correct:
Psalm 115:3 "But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased."
In centuries past, kingdom subjects could be executed for looking cross at the King. God is the king of kings. My God is Holy and happens to have spoken the universe into existence. One which such awesome power and credentials can do as He pleases. It is ironic that God has afforded us life, breath and free will to pontifcate about Him and what we would do if He were in our court.
Thankfully, what God pleases are within certain confines. I won't digress there too far except to say I believe God to be morally good. I recognize this is difficult for you to accept, as you have endless anecdotal information which you think argues contrariwise. I would gently advocate against drawing hasty conclusions about what life's mysteries suggest about God. We can theorize and guess all day about God or not-God, but in the end, there remains ontological certitude. That is, what we believe doesn't change what is.
From your perspective, I can understand why you think this. No Shima, I am not God. You don't even believe in God (do you?) and now you want to tell me what I do and do not know. Perhaps if you have less information that I, then you might consider listening for awhile instead of speaking. It is only when one stops making assertions, that one can begin to acquire knowledge and wisdom.
I do not claim to know God in any ultimate sense. But I do claim to know a fragment about Him and I do claim to have a nascent relationship with Him. Are you disposed to immediately reject whatever a Christian says?
Curtsibling
New member
Re: Re: Re: Grow up Curt...
Re: Re: Re: Grow up Curt...
Is this what you are reduced to?
Looking for typos in my posts?
The sign of a desperate man!
Utter nonsense. Now you have really lost it.
My town was bombed by Hitler's Luftwaffe.
You obviously have no knowledge of history.
I know people in the UK and USA that would punch you out cold for that comment.
That is like me saying you are just like Osama Bin Laden.
Would you like that? I assume not.
Z Man, kindly use your brain before you post.
Your warning is acknowledged.
Now, if you having nothing more constructive to add, perhaps you would consider our debate done?
It has became pointless.
Now let's look at the results:
I have not moved one inch from my initial stance, in fact you have helped fortify it.
You, I assume, have covered your ears and eyes and remained entrenched in your views...
What has this exchanged proved?
PS
Nice avatar, preferred the F14 one though.
All the best,
Curt
Re: Re: Re: Grow up Curt...
Originally posted by Z Man
Well, as long as you believe elected is spelled "eletced", then I guess you'll always believe that....
Is this what you are reduced to?
Looking for typos in my posts?
The sign of a desperate man!
Utter nonsense. Now you have really lost it.
My town was bombed by Hitler's Luftwaffe.
You obviously have no knowledge of history.
I know people in the UK and USA that would punch you out cold for that comment.
That is like me saying you are just like Osama Bin Laden.
Would you like that? I assume not.
Z Man, kindly use your brain before you post.
Your warning is acknowledged.
Now, if you having nothing more constructive to add, perhaps you would consider our debate done?
It has became pointless.
Now let's look at the results:
I have not moved one inch from my initial stance, in fact you have helped fortify it.
You, I assume, have covered your ears and eyes and remained entrenched in your views...
What has this exchanged proved?
PS
Nice avatar, preferred the F14 one though.
All the best,
Curt
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Ofcourse. Justice is a language contruct and an abstract concept. Therefore, I use the definition this society has given that concept. Now, if the Bible uses a different definition (such as God is Just) then that is not my problem. I argue from the definition we as humans use within our society, because we are all part of that society. Using that definition and looking at Gods actions described in the bible, then I cannot come to any other conclusion that God is not just.
And in our society, those highest courts are answerable to the people. Hence, God is also answerable to us, just like the president eventually answers to the people. God judges us when we die, we judge Him when we live.
Nonsense. If God makes universaly moral laws, then He is naturally obligated to abide by them. We have already discarded "One rule for the ruled, no rule for the rulers" as a concept that doesn't work. Any authority that wants the respect and cooperation of the people under them is almost required to abide by his own rules. THis ofcourse goes for God as well. Especially for God, since He is "always right". Therefore, it was "right" to destroy Sodom, therefore it was "right" to kill all those firstborn of Egypt. However, if it was "right" at that time for God, then it was also "right" at that time for people.
However, the 10 commandments clearly indicate that murder is always wrong. This is a contradiction, since God murdered the firstborn of Egypt. So, either murder isn't "absolutely wrong" if God is doing it, making murder not absolutely wrong, or God committed a wrongfull act and lied about it to his followers.
Which is exactly my point. Human society has grown from the concept of a Monarch who's every whim was will to a society in which even the most supreme authority answers to the people.
We as human beings are much better off living in a democracy than we are living under the tyranical rule of some mad dictator.
I'm not going to tell you what you do and do not know in general terms. However, I have read the bible myself, and apparently have an entire different view of God than you do. So, given that, why is your view of God "better" or "more accurate" than mine? (or any christian of a different denomination than you).
I'm sorry, but everything is there in the bible. God did murder all those firstborn Egyptians, didn't He? If He did, then He's a murderer and according to the absolute moral laws He set down himself, murder is wrong. Therefore, God committed a wrongfull act.
Or, God didn't murder the firstborns of Egypt, making the author of the bible a liar. Which ofcourse would raise the question as to who the author really is. Is God capable of lying? Would you love a God who lied to you in order to inspire fear into its followers and in its enemies?
If what that Christian says doesn't coincide with what the bible says, I would definitely question what that Christian says. I do not reject everything immediately, but I'm not inclined to immediately believe everything I hear/see. I have read the bible, and one thing that struck me about it is the inconcistency of it. See above for an example.
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Z Man
New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Grow up Curt...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Grow up Curt...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Grow up Curt...
Well, you started it. So I guess that makes you the desperate man....Originally posted by Curtsibling
Is this what you are reduced to?
Looking for typos in my posts?
The sign of a desperate man!
Previously posted by Curtsibling
Goodness!
Z Man if you are going to keep this up, please, not so many typos!
I don't want to have to start correcting you...
Badly spelt posts have little impact on me!
Why do you take offense to me saying that we are all just as guilty as sins as Hitler was. We may not kill people, but there are other laws that we have broken in the sight of God. Therefore, we are just as sinful.
Z Man
New member
But all of those who are saved have been justified. God carried out the justice for those who are saved through His Son, Jesus Christ.
You're a just a man. Take your place and realize that God is God. He does whatever He pleases. And anything He does is right, for that is His character.
Psalms 8:3-4
When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained, what is man that You are mindful of him?
Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing; and He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, "What are you doing?"
Again, take your place as a man and realize that God is God. If He wants to kill, He can and will. It's His creation and He can do as He sees fit with it. It may be wrong for us to go around and kill people, but it's not wrong for God to do it.
For example, you wouldn't go over to your neighbors yard and start uprooting his plants and rearranging as you saw fit; it's not your yard or your place to do that. But that neighbor can do as he sees fit with his creation/garden/yard.
Besides, who are you to judge God? He could null your existence without thinking twice about it, if He wanted to. And since obviously He hasn't as of yet, you should be giving Him thanks and praise for even acknowledging your existence by blessing you with whatever you have. Who are we that God is even mindful of us?
Curtsibling
New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Grow up Curt...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Grow up Curt...
This is evidence of the slippage of your debate into gibberish.
Whatever you were trying to argue about has slipped under the waves of your own incoherence.
Now is the time to be gracious in defeat, Z Man, and end the debate.
From your viewpoint, sins are the same, OK, fine.
BUT!
Not many ordinary people are accountable for over a 100 million deaths by war and extermination.
Hitler's air force bombed the blazes out of my country.
Out 20,000 buildings, only 17 survived the nazi bomber attacks on my town alone.
But I guess it is easy for you to make big claims, considering the easy time the US homeland had in WW2.
You have NO moral ground on this one Z Man. I am not even going to discuss it with you.
I have no more time to waste bending words with you. Your debates are odd and funny, but ultimately suffer from Deja Vu.
The same pointless point repeated over and over.
You have your own path, I have mine,
and I bid you to have fun in whatever you do.
I hope you find your answer one day, Z Man.
In amusement,
Curt
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Grow up Curt...
This is evidence of the slippage of your debate into gibberish.
Whatever you were trying to argue about has slipped under the waves of your own incoherence.
Now is the time to be gracious in defeat, Z Man, and end the debate.
From your viewpoint, sins are the same, OK, fine.
BUT!
Not many ordinary people are accountable for over a 100 million deaths by war and extermination.
Hitler's air force bombed the blazes out of my country.
Out 20,000 buildings, only 17 survived the nazi bomber attacks on my town alone.
But I guess it is easy for you to make big claims, considering the easy time the US homeland had in WW2.
You have NO moral ground on this one Z Man. I am not even going to discuss it with you.
I have no more time to waste bending words with you. Your debates are odd and funny, but ultimately suffer from Deja Vu.
The same pointless point repeated over and over.
You have your own path, I have mine,
and I bid you to have fun in whatever you do.
I hope you find your answer one day, Z Man.
In amusement,
Curt
Z Man
New member
Curt,
You're a moron. You started the gibberish by stating I had bad spelling. Then when I brought to your attention that you are no better, you stated that I was getting desperate, although you did the exact same thing. I brought your hypocrisy to your attention, then you state that I'm getting into gibberish...
Grow up.
BTW, your signature is all one needs to read to understand the prideful "holier-than-thou" person you truely are... :vomit:
Curtsibling
New member
Originally posted by Z Man
Curt,
You're a moron. You started the gibberish by stating I had bad spelling. Then when I brought to your attention that you are no better, you stated that I was getting desperate, although you did the exact same thing. I brought your hypocrisy to your attention, then you state that I'm getting into gibberish...
Well, I can see the final resort is to start calling names.
Childish, and fully in tune with your limited mental capacity.
I have a better education than you could possibly hope for,
so please remain moored in your tiny, narrow worldview.
I feel rather sorry it has came to this. But you have serious issues.
That much is obvious.
Oh, cut to the marrow!...Not.
Learn some sarcasm, you silly boy.
Not any different than you inflating with pride when you proudly proclaim everyone damned, except you.
Give it a rest, Z Man.
This will be my last post to you, for now.
I will resume communication when you can act like a human being.
Enjoy your life - what is left of it.:thumb:
Curtsibling
New member
One final item...
Did it occur to you at any time, Z Man, that here in the UK, we spell many words differently from the USA?
Probably not...
Did it occur to you at any time, Z Man, that here in the UK, we spell many words differently from the USA?
Probably not...