The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
Elvis lookalikes? A lot.
Because he wanted the Roman Empire to turn to his beliefs.
The image Paul has of Jezus didn't coincide with the image the Apostles had of Jezus.
So? I see Islamic terrorist blow themselves and others up on the news almost every day. They are not the only people with convictions, and they were willing to die for them, just like Muslims. However, that doesn't mean their convictions were true.
And how is that different than a fanatic willing to undergo torture because he swallowed a bill of goods and a crapload of dogma?
If I remember well, someone returned to the grave three days later to find the stone entrance unblocked. Nobody actually saw him rise from the dead. So, they believed it was true. They didn't know it was true.
Faith, ofcourse. Faith gives millions of believers (and not just christians) confidence every day. However, that is a psychological effect, and has nothing to do with the truthfullness of their beliefs.
Its possible, but I don't believe its true.
If he didn't, Christianity is untrue.
LightSon
New member
I doubt we share a common definition of "martyr".
My usage of "martyr" is "a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion."
Yes, but at what cost? Paul wanted all (including Rome) to convert to a faith in Christ, at the expense of his own life.
Your glib response passes over the implication that men don't opt to suffer and die for what they know to be a lie.
I disagree, yet wonder how it is that you, an atheist, boast such intimate knowledge of these Biblical groupings.
If you are going use scripture to bolster your case, you would do well to review the whole of it, and not just pick-n-choose what you think will work to win the argument.
Jesus' disciples actually did see their risen master. I could offer several Biblical references, but it would be a waste of time, as you are disposed to disbelieve.
Faith is powerful. Instead of insisting faith "has nothing to do" with truth, why not hedge? Perhaps you might say instead "[faith] may have nothing to do with the truthfullness of their beliefs. "
The obvious advantage is that it leaves the door open to say, "[faith] may have some correspondance to the truthfullness of their beliefs. "
Well at least you acknowledge it is possible. That is a start Shima. Please don't shut the door, but rather leave it open. Perhaps God may walk in and give you the faith you need to believe it.
Well said! Christianity stands or falls based on whether Jesus is alive right now, or has long been dust these past 2000 years.
All my eggs are in one basket. I know the price I'll pay if I'm wrong. I'll either spend eternity with a living Christ, or I'll spend eternity as dust with a dead Christ. Either way, conscious or not, I'll be with Him.
Have you considered your options carefully?
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Well, I woulnd't call Elvis a religion, although it goes to quite some extremes for some people. I stated Elvis as an example of the reliability of eyewitness testimony. Law enforcement know that eyewitness testimony is not as reliable as it seems. Its very easy to distorn someone's memory of an event by asking wrongly directed questions and deliberate misinterpretations of the statement. Just ask around.
That he was willing to die indicates that his beliefs were strong. However, that doesn't mean they were true.
I have read the Bible, but also other sources of information. I've also read some Roman sources, who are usually more reliable. The Roman sources and the story of Paul don't coincide.
Just like Elvis.
In a psychological sense, yes.
Alright, here is the arguement.
If faith and truth are somehow linked, then faith in something (call it: A) and the truthfullness of the existence of object A would be linked. Notice how I don't say that one causes the other. Now, history is replrete with things that people had faith in, but turned out to be wrong.
Several examples are: Gods of the Norse, Greek and Roman mythologies. Santa Clause. Flat Earth. Geocentric World View. etc etc etc.
People had faith that their worldview was true. But it wasn't. So, there is no reason to assume that faith in something and the existence of that something are linked.
Me believing in it doesn't make it any more true than anyone else believing in it. I'll accept it when I see some convincing evidence that it is true. Should God exist, he'll know what evidence will convince me. If he doesn't exist, then most likely that evidence will never turn up.
That is not exactly true. For example, if Christianity is untrue but rather Islam or the Jewish faith is correct, then you will spend your eternity in the same place as me. If however Hinuism is true (which is a religion of karma rather than faith) then you could be reincarnated into something "higher" even though you adhered to the wrong faith.
I have thought about my options. Since there is no way to determine with certainty which (if any) religion is correct, I haven't selected any particular relgion so far. Yes, I'm an atheist at the moment, based on several arguements (which I stated somewhere else in this thread). Ofcourse, being an atheist means that I keep my options open as long as I keep looking.
Another advantage of atheism: I can treat people the way I want to. I do think that Jezus was a very admirable person in this respect, so I've taken some of his hints and tips and applied them to my life. I also applied some of Buddha's tips as well. I'm happy with my life now, although this wasn't always the case.
Curtsibling
New member
Didn't humans invent the christian god, like all the other gods?
I don't see the difference, save for a lot of people in favour of one version of a religion or another.
That does not amount to evidence in my view.
In all my online and real-world travels, I have never had anybody of any belief system give me any real evidence of their chosen deity.
And I have spoken to countless people of many beliefs.
They all seem to be clinging to their ideals, in the face of harsh reality.
But that is what faith is all about, eh?
I don't see the difference, save for a lot of people in favour of one version of a religion or another.
That does not amount to evidence in my view.
In all my online and real-world travels, I have never had anybody of any belief system give me any real evidence of their chosen deity.
And I have spoken to countless people of many beliefs.
They all seem to be clinging to their ideals, in the face of harsh reality.
But that is what faith is all about, eh?
Curtsibling
New member
I am right in surmising you contest my statements?
Have you?
You have enough angst and tantrums, from what I see.
Being in an entirely different nation than USA, that may pose a problem.
Exactly what did I say that incurred your....wrath, Freak?
Just curious.
Freak
New member
Originally posted by Curtsibling
Exactly what did I say that incurred your....wrath, Freak?
Just curious.
You saying this: Didn't humans invent the christian god, like all the other gods?
Humans inventing the triune God? That is insane.
Curious....where did you get this idea?
Curtsibling
New member
Hmm, obviously our upbringings were mildy different.
Why is my opinion seen as a deadly threat by you?
Surely you can merely disagree without taking it personally?
I meant that the concept of a deity is a human idea/invention.
I am not trying to argue that we in ancient times, actually created a god.
That would be a bit insane.
I got it from the human ability to reason.
The same place you get your ideas.
Hope this clears that up.
Best wishes.
Curt
Exactly. So, there are 4 possibilities
1) Jezus is real and you believe in it.
Congratulations, you have the truth and you go to heaven.
2) Jezus is real and you don't believe in him.
Sorry, you are incorrect and you will go to hell. (game over, please insert coin)
3) Jezus isn't real but you do believe in him.
Sorry, you are wrong.
4) Jezus isn't real and you don't believe in him.
Congratulations, you are right.
Now, in cases 3 and 4 the consequence depends on the religion that is true.
A) A religion of works is true.
B) A religion of behavior is true.
C) Atheism is true.
3A:Sorry, you will go to hell for not adhering to the rules laid down by the real deity.
3B: That entirely depends on your behavior. Most of the time, the teachings of Buddha, Ghandi, Jezus, Mohammed are good guidelines.
3C: There is no consequence after death. You don't realise it.
4A: Sorry, you will go to hell if you didn't adhere.OR: congratulations, you have chosen the correct faith and will go to heaven/higher state.
4B: That entirely depends on your behavior. Most of the time, the teachings of Buddha, Ghandi, Jezus, Mohammed are good guidelines.
4C: There is no consequence after you die. If you are an atheist, you have realised this and therefore will most likely have chosen to face the consequences of your actions during your life.
4C is my option: i'm an atheist.
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Curtsibling
New member
Unchallengeable logic.