The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

[LightSon]

Originally posted by Singerian
I was once a Christian, too. But I was never really satisfied with myself until I decided to abandon Christianity in favor of altruism. That's the problem with Christianity. It's not about what's best for all sentience. It's about what's best for God. If accepting God happens to benefit all sentience, that's simply a latent effect. The primary purpose is to live for Him. It's a selfish way of living. It's just a different self you're living for.

Well that is just sad, Sing.
I'm compelled to echo in passing that
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." 1st John 2:19.

Altruism? That's a poor substitute for God, and that is an overstatement. You can make folks as comfortable and as pleasure oriented as possible, and in 70 years they'll all be dust. In your view, they will be dust for eons on into oblivion.

I accepted Christ when I was 10. I am now 42. The path has not been easy and I too have struggled to find satisfaction in God. I also struggle with depression allot. I will confess that I "gave up" for awhile to pursue hedonistic things. My faith dwindled and almost went out.

I think you are too smart for your own good. You seem to have above average logic, and are no doubt tortured by apparent contradictions in the Christian world view.

You have said some amazingly dark things. I have to wonder if you ever shudder on your bed at night as you ponder the eventuality of death and facing Him with whom we all have to do. One can continue to ignore the disease which ravages their body, but in the end, death will become reality.

Is there no light of God that you can see? Is there no spiritual truth that He has not slipped you that you can hang onto? Go there. Move towards the light. Who knows but what the Holy Spirit may be trying to draw you to God.

As I said, I enjoy a good sunset. The feelings of wonder and sublimity often sweep through me in a torrent. There is nothing so fulfilling as walking with God in those moments and expressing heartfelt gratitude to Him for providing the sunset, and for giving me the life and breath to experience it and for giving me friends and family to share it all with. Life is precious. It is sad to realize that this dimension in your life is dead - spiritually lifeless - you can't even understand what I'm saying.

 

[shima]

LightSon:
>>We are fulfilling our highest created purpose when we reflect back to God his own glory. <<

Which is exactly one of the reasons WHY I think the God of the bible doesn't exist. I seriously doubt it wether a being that is "perfect" would create "imperfect" beings. Second, I doubt he actually NEEDS our worship. When you are that powerfull, I seriously doubt that he would actually CARE about such things. Should he REQUIRE worship, then perhaps he is NOT the "perfect" being you make him out to be.

 

[LightSon]

Originally posted by shima
LightSon:
>>We are fulfilling our highest created purpose when we reflect back to God his own glory. <<

Which is exactly one of the reasons WHY I think the God of the bible doesn't exist. I seriously doubt it wether a being that is "perfect" would create "imperfect" beings. Second, I doubt he actually NEEDS our worship. When you are that powerfull, I seriously doubt that he would actually CARE about such things. Should he REQUIRE worship, then perhaps he is NOT the "perfect" being you make him out to be.

I suppose you are entitled to doubt and to move through the process. I trust you are being honest with yourself on the way.

Much has been written about the "whys" surrounding our creation. I happen to hold that imperfection and rebellion are necessary (or perhaps eventual) steps that God allowed in order to truly make us with free will. The free will to love also implies the free will to not love.

As to whether God needs worship, I suggest that you misunderstand. God wants us to love and worship Him, not for primarily for His benefit, but for ours. We are the ones who receive the highest blessing in fulfilling our created purpose. I don't doubt that God is pleased also in fellowship with us, but God's insistance on being central is because He is the best solution for our emptiness.

Think of it this way. If it is true that, in the long term, we will be truly joyful in God, would God be loving us if He desired anything else for us than that which will satisfy us?

 

[shima]

LightSon
>>I suppose you are entitled to doubt and to move through the process. I trust you are being honest with yourself on the way.<<

I always am.

>>I happen to hold that imperfection and rebellion are necessary (or perhaps eventual) steps that God allowed in order to truly make us with free will. <<

I happen to hold that imperfection indicates that humanity wasn't created.

>>God wants us to love and worship Him, not for primarily for His benefit, but for ours. <<

Yes, but he PUNISHES us when you DON'T love him. So I guess the "for our benefit" part is stated because otherwise he would toss you in hell to rot for eternity.

>>I don't doubt that God is pleased also in fellowship with us, but God's insistance on being central is because He is the best solution for our emptiness.<<

Perhaps, perhaps not. Humanity have been filling the "god-shaped-hole" with all kinds of gods since the dawn of civilisation. So, why is God any different from the billions of other gods who at one time or another occupied the same place?

>>If it is true that, in the long term, we will be truly joyful in God, would God be loving us if He desired anything else for us than that which
will satisfy us?<<

Perhaps not. But then again, if he didn't give us free will he would have achieved the same result. But he did give us free will, so in effect what god wants doesn't really factor into things. You cannot DEMAND love, all you can do is be yourself. And God has some extremely nasty personality traits for which I DON'T love him.

For one, he so wants me to love him that he'll throw me in hell if I don't. As another, for a "wholy good" being, God has ordered his followers to do some pretty nasty things. And third, the "God shaped hole" that everyone referrs to can be just as easily filled with other things. Ofcourse, christians would disagree, but then again they are rather not strong enough to face the challenges life has to offer WITHOUT the guidance of a 2000 year old book.

 

[RogerB]

For one, he so wants me to love him that he'll throw me in hell if I don't. As another, for a "wholy good" being, God has ordered his followers to do some pretty nasty things. And third, the "God shaped hole" that everyone referrs to can be just as easily filled with other things. Ofcourse, christians would disagree, but then again they are rather not strong enough to face the challenges life has to offer WITHOUT the guidance of a 2000 year old book.

1. Where as most people would stab you in the back and throw you into hell without so much as a "look out!", God has clearly spelled out your choices. If you end up in hell, it's YOUR fault.

2. :nono:

3. Yes, you can fill that God-shaped hole with many things....Christians do it, atheists do it....but nothing fits that hole as perfectly as God.

 

[prodigalson]

It amazes me that God would send His own Son, who was God incarnate from His rightfull place in Heaven, had to work a laborous job, get ridiculed, beaten, spit upon(yeah), and than crucified for all of us, and people will still blame God for the judgement of Hell.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by shima
>>God wants us to love and worship Him, not for primarily for His benefit, but for ours. <<

Yes, but he PUNISHES us when you DON'T love him. So I guess the "for our benefit" part is stated because otherwise he would toss you in hell to rot for eternity.

God doesn't punish people for not loving Him; people go to hell because they deserve it. They're only paying for their own consequences. They live their lives in total rebellion against God. Would it be fair to send someone to heaven, when their whole life they wanted nothing to do with God?

Humanity have been filling the "god-shaped-hole" with all kinds of gods since the dawn of civilisation. So, why is God any different from the billions of other gods who at one time or another occupied the same place?

Because the Christian God was the only one to do something with humanities problem; death. He came to save us from our sins, which leads us to death, by dying in our place. No other god has demonstrated such love and sacrifice for such lowly and imperfect beings, who actually hate Him.

For one, he so wants me to love him that he'll throw me in hell if I don't.

You worded this wrong. It should be:

God so wants me to love Him that He came to earth to die in my place so that I can escape my own doom.

As another, for a "wholy good" being, God has ordered his followers to do some pretty nasty things.

Like what?

And third, the "God shaped hole" that everyone referrs to can be just as easily filled with other things.

If there is anything else in this world that offers eternal life and peace, then I'll be willing to try it. But I wouldn't bother looking if I was you. I've already searched, and the world had nothing to offer....

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by shima
Perhaps not. But then again, if he didn't give us free will he would have achieved the same result. But he did give us free will, so in effect what god wants doesn't really factor into things. You cannot DEMAND love, all you can do is be yourself. And God has some extremely nasty personality traits for which I DON'T love him.

I thought you said you didn't believe in God? But all this quote does is demonstrate the fact that you really do. It's obvious. You're not really an atheist, shima -- you're just mad at God.

 

[Z Man]

One Eyed Jack,
That doesn't even have to be said. Christians know that all atheists are fake, and atheists themselves know God exists.

 

[Husband&Father]

The Question of Evil

The Question of Evil

One point about evil: Christianity needs to be able to address the problem of evil, the question of evil and suffering are legitimate challenges to the Christian worldview.
But keep in mind they are questions because they appear inconsistent with Christianity. Evil and Christianity do not mix. Atheism, on the other hand, is perfectly compatible with evil and, far from offering a solution to the problem, it makes no attempt at an answer.
In fact evil is the logical conclusion of atheism. There is no moral standard, no objective judge, no eternal punishment, why not get away with what ever you can?

 

[Z Man]

Re: The Question of Evil

Re: The Question of Evil

Originally posted by Husband&Father
One point about evil: Christianity needs to be able to address the problem of evil, the question of evil and suffering are legitimate challenges to the Christian worldview.

How so?

 

[prodigalson]

This thread has really turned into 'People who know God and people who think they know who God should be'. Some of these thoughts by the non-christians imo are proof why the Bible is true b/c the Bible goes against their way of thinking of who God is, how Holy He is, His wrath, and His opinion of man. If the Bible was written by men, it would just say, be good and don't try and harm anyone and you will make it to heaven(how many people think this way? 85% of the world?).

If the Bible is just made up by men, they sure wouldn't be saying humans deserve eternal damnation and that God would punish a decent man(I used to think the same way as did probably all of us here once did). Non christian's problem is that they bring God down from how exalted He really is(we can't even fathom how holy He is) and bring mankind up from his wretchedness(we can't even fathom how bad we are).

Just making a comment before I go to bed, I am sure others could probably articulate it a little better though.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Z Man
One Eyed Jack,
That doesn't even have to be said. Christians know that all atheists are fake, and atheists themselves know God exists.

I probably wouldn't have said anything, but shima said earlier in the same post that he was always honest with himself. I was just pointing out his contradiction in the hopes that it would register with him this time.

 

[Zakath]

Re: The Question of Evil

Re: The Question of Evil

Originally posted by Husband&Father
... Atheism, on the other hand, is perfectly compatible with evil and, far from offering a solution to the problem, it makes no attempt at an answer.

That's because atheism does not provide "answers"; it is not a system of ethics but a state of religious disbelief.

In fact evil is the logical conclusion of atheism. There is no moral standard, no objective judge, no eternal punishment, why not get away with what ever you can?

That is merely hyperbole along the lines of saying that since genocide is commended by the deity of the Christians in the OT that we should expect all Christians to be willing participants in genocide.

The observable fact is that all Christians (even the great majority) do not appear to support such beliefs.

The same could be said of atheists.

 

[shima]

RogerB:
>>1. Where as most people would stab you in the back and throw you into hell without so much as a "look out!", God has clearly spelled out your choices. If you end up in hell, it's YOUR fault.<<

So we have two choises:
1) Love God and end up in heaven.
2) Don't love God and end up in hell.

So, basically, I will be punished because I don't love God. And you are STILL believing that God is a "good" God? To me, he seems like an extremely selfish God who doesn't care about anyone except himself. You cannot DEMAND love, because love is an emotion.

>>3. Yes, you can fill that God-shaped hole with many things....Christians do it, atheists do it....but nothing fits that hole as perfectly as God.<<

Which is nonsense. Love fits that hole, regardless of the object of that love. After all, if only god would fill that hole, then there wouldn't be all those people converting away from christianity.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by RogerB
1. Where as most people would stab you in the back and throw you into hell without so much as a "look out!", God has clearly spelled out your choices. If you end up in hell, it's YOUR fault.

If it's so clearly spelled out then how come the Christians are still arguing amongst themselves about the particulars after almost 20 centuries.

This discounts the other world religion that believes in the same deity, Judaism, and their squabbles with Christianity on the process of achieving eternal life...

 

[shima]

Prodigal son:
>>It amazes me that God would send His own Son, who was God incarnate from His rightfull place in Heaven, had to work a laborous job, get ridiculed, beaten, spit upon(yeah), and than crucified for all of us, and people will still blame God for the judgement of Hell.<<

It amazes me that people think it would be hard for God (who is all-powerfull) to die at the cross. After all, IF Jezus was God, then he surely had all of gods powers. Since God created the entire universe and is immortal, Jezus dying on the cross means nothing. He didn't sacrifice anything, since that requires giving up something. Since Jezus couldn't and didn't die, he didn't sacrifice anything.

Z Man:
>>God doesn't punish people for not loving Him; people go to hell because they deserve it. They're only paying for their own consequences. They live their lives in total rebellion against God. Would it be fair to send someone to heaven, when their whole life they wanted nothing to do with God?<<

Ofcourse it would be fair. What would NOT be fair is to send murderers to heaven because they converted 5 minutes before dying, while innocent people who have always helped people and loved people and didn't hurt anyone go to hell because they don't believe in God.

You have a screwed sense of justice, my friend.

>>Because the Christian God was the only one to do something with humanities problem; death. He came to save us from our sins, which leads us to death, by dying in our place. No other god has demonstrated such love and sacrifice for such lowly and imperfect beings, who actually hate Him.<<

Christianity is hardly the only religion that tries to escape death. Hinduism and Islam both offer solutions to death.

Death is not a problem, anymore than life is a problem. Death DEFINES life, like destruction defines creation, love defines hate and destiny defines freedom. Death is ONLY a problem if you FEAR death. Most people fear death and want to cheat her any way that they can, and religion is often the most preferred method.

Husband&Father
>>In fact evil is the logical conclusion of atheism. There is no moral standard, no objective judge, no eternal punishment, why not get away with what ever you can?<<

Actually, you are quite mistaken. What atheist DO believe in is PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. That means that there is ONE person responsible for your actions: YOU. You have to awnser to yourself. You don't need an objective standard, as long as society can agree on what subjective standard to use. Your interaction with other human beings is based on that.

One Eyed Jack:
>>I thought you said you didn't believe in God? But all this quote does is demonstrate the fact that you really do. It's obvious. You're not really an atheist, shima -- you're just mad at God.<<

I don't believe in God. For one, the logical contradiction between a "Wholy Good God" and the parts just described make God a logical impossibility. Either God is NOT "Wholy Good" (in which case he isn't God) OR God does NOT exist and all those things described in the bible are faery tales.

 

[RogerB]

So we have two choises:
1) Love God and end up in heaven.
2) Don't love God and end up in hell.

So, basically, I will be punished because I don't love God. And you are STILL believing that God is a "good" God? To me, he seems like an extremely selfish God who doesn't care about anyone except himself. You cannot DEMAND love, because love is an emotion.

You need more than 2 choices? He cares DEEPLY about you - that's why he devised a way for you to spend eternity with Him. He isn't demanding your love. Like you said, you have a choice. Free will.

>>Yes, you can fill that God-shaped hole with many things....Christians do it, atheists do it....but nothing fits that hole as perfectly as God.<<

Which is nonsense. Love fits that hole, regardless of the object of that love. After all, if only god would fill that hole, then there wouldn't be all those people converting away from christianity.

According to the CIA World Factbook, the religious make-up of the US is: Protestant 56%, Roman Catholic 28%, Jewish 2%, other 4%, none 10%. Where in the world do you get "all those people converting away"???

Your kicking and screaming is proof that you haven't found anything to fill that hole. Maybe it would be better for us to discuss what it is about Christianity you don't like - ASIDE from lack of proof.

 

[RogerB]

Jezus

What are you, 9 years old?

 

[RogerB]

WORLD RELIGIONS:

Christians 32.88%
Muslims 19.54%
Hindus 13.34%
non-religious 12.63%
other religions 12.6%
Buddhists 5.92%
atheists 2.47%
Sikhs 0.38%
Jews 0.24%

Cheer up atheists - at least you're not dead last!!