ECT The essential irrationality of Dispensationalism

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I

Interplanner

Well-known member
steko said:
You'll have to wait and ask the Lord 'why', later.



Depends on how one defines 'Judaism'.

Some say that 'Biblical Judaism' is a Jewish understanding in harmony with Moses and the Prophets, which is Scripture.

This is in contrast with 'Rabbinic Judaism' which is not always in harmony with Scripture.

From this understanding, Phillip was teaching 'Biblical Judaism' which is Scripture and is the truth of Is 53.
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No, it's to make sure he didn't have Judaism's understanding which was that it was about their suffering in Babylon, which is the #1 reason why they thought the restoration was to be literal, Jn 12:34. Suffering does that; it makes it hard to see what Christ's plans really are. This is why it is sad that Jer 29:29 is taken so hyper-personally today. it's really about Christ Our Righteousness coming and being the kingdom for Israel, as Hebrews is trying say when the dingles here at TOL are quiet and read other passages than 8:8.

You need to update your understanding of what Judaism was like. there was the upper class, formal kind in Jerusalem. and the zealot type in Galilee, mostly, both of which believed in a vision of Israel not being under Rome. Some of them and some Essenes, believed the temple itself to be defiled already, not just by Romans, but by the upper classes. But the upper classes believed 'redemption' (freedom from Rome) would take place painlessly, miraculously. The zealots believed they had to fight it out like Joshua, and they would be met/assisted with God's help.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Right Divider said:
The great fabricator, hard at work.
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God was the Great Fabricator of his mission and yes, He was at work. Everything he said would happen did. It was all going in the direction of his mission. Nothing was ever going positive about the land of Judea. The faith-based Israel was past that.
 
steko

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Interplanner said:
No, it's to make sure he didn't have Judaism's understanding which was that it was about their suffering in Babylon, which is the #1 reason why they thought the restoration was to be literal, Jn 12:34. Suffering does that; it makes it hard to see what Christ's plans really are. This is why it is sad that Jer 29:29 is taken so hyper-personally today. it's really about Christ Our Righteousness coming and being the kingdom for Israel, as Hebrews is trying say when the dingles here at TOL are quiet and read other passages than 8:8.

You need to update your understanding of what Judaism was like. there was the upper class, formal kind in Jerusalem. and the zealot type in Galilee, mostly, both of which believed in a vision of Israel not being under Rome. Some of them and some Essenes, believed the temple itself to be defiled already, not just by Romans, but by the upper classes. But the upper classes believed 'redemption' (freedom from Rome) would take place painlessly, miraculously. The zealots believed they had to fight it out like Joshua, and they would be met/assisted with God's help."]
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What? Sorta' like this?

Psa 110:2* The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.*
Psa 110:3* Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power
Psa 110:5* The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.*
Psa 110:6* He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.*

Luk 1:67* And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,*
Luk 1:68* Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,*
Luk 1:69* And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;*
Luk 1:70* As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:*
Luk 1:71* That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;*
Luk 1:72* To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;*
Luk 1:73* The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,*
Luk 1:74* That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,*
Luk 1:75* In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.*
*


Zacharias prophesied by the Holy Spirit.
Was the Holy Spirit wrong... mistaken?
 
D

Danoh

New member
steko said:
What? Sorta' like this?

Psa 110:2* The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.*
Psa 110:3* Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power
Psa 110:5* The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.*
Psa 110:6* He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.*

Luk 1:67* And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,*
Luk 1:68* Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,*
Luk 1:69* And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;*
Luk 1:70* As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:*
Luk 1:71* That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;*
Luk 1:72* To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;*
Luk 1:73* The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,*
Luk 1:74* That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,*
Luk 1:75* In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.*
*


Zacharias prophesied by the Holy Spirit.
Was the Holy Spirit wrong... mistaken?
Click to expand...

Don't you know the Bible was confused on all that until Interplanner came along to set all that straight?

Get with the books based program, steko.
 
D

Danoh

New member
Interplanner said:
Oh, come on, the chronology option is really from "commentaries" from the Chief of Police of Anti-Commentarians.

Luke-Acts was meant to clear Paul of any connection to rebellion. To clear 'redeem Israel' from any zealot connection.

It shows the progression Jesus said would happen did happen, with God moving chess pieces. The D'ist questions are so off base and foundation that they don't know what to look for.

When Peter says in 10:34 about no favoritism, we hear Christ who would later have Paul say the same thing all over the place. Total unity. No twots stinking up the thing.
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lol, Musti - at what the the books based incompetent did with that. For as you obviously, understood, I was arguing against, not for, a chronology there.

Interplanner, you...are an incompetent.

Nevertheless, fool, Rom. 5:8

Plain and simple.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
steko said:
What? Sorta' like this?

Psa 110:2* The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.*
Psa 110:3* Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power
Psa 110:5* The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.*
Psa 110:6* He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.*

Luk 1:67* And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,*
Luk 1:68* Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,*
Luk 1:69* And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;*
Luk 1:70* As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:*
Luk 1:71* That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;*
Luk 1:72* To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;*
Luk 1:73* The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,*
Luk 1:74* That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,*
Luk 1:75* In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.*
*


Zacharias prophesied by the Holy Spirit.
Was the Holy Spirit wrong... mistaken?
Click to expand...






No, but it was not to be a state/legal kingdom, as he said many times. 'Basileu' means a reign but it does not mean a government. He never promised that, and Ps 110 was quoted many times fulfilled in his resurrection and in what was unfolding since. It is like the expression in Daniel about a kingdom being established without human hands. WITHOUT.

What you need to know about the NT setting (which the club here will fight, spit and scream trying to stop you) is that you could not safely use such passages outloud in 1st century Judea if you meant a thing that displaced Rome. For ex., in Josephus comments on the Egyptian terrorist of Acts 21:38, he often quoted the Zech passage about being on the Mount of Olives with Messiah. So the passage is quoted in Luke, (and see Lk 24) but clearly in the story, Christ did nothing that triggered any Roman response. Even the clearing of the temple was not big enough, nor the riding into Jerusalem on a colt, and the clearing of the temple was meant to disrupt terrorists money source anyway ('leistes' is not a common thief; it is always political, mercenary).

Luke-Acts were written to help exonerate Paul (and the Christians in general) from any association with the widespread Judean revolts that simmered from 6 AD (reaction to the census) to 72 (Masada).

If you don't realize that, then your Lk 1-2 passages just called the Roman empire the enemy and they would have impounded all of the Christians. You never find this in Acts; the problem for Christians is almost always the Judaizers.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
steko said:
What? Sorta' like this?

Psa 110:2* The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.*
Psa 110:3* Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power
Psa 110:5* The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.*
Psa 110:6* He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.*

Luk 1:67* And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,*
Luk 1:68* Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,*
Luk 1:69* And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;*
Luk 1:70* As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:*
Luk 1:71* That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;*
Luk 1:72* To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;*
Luk 1:73* The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,*
Luk 1:74* That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,*
Luk 1:75* In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.*
*


Zacharias prophesied by the Holy Spirit.
Was the Holy Spirit wrong... mistaken?
Click to expand...





btw, when I said there was a #1 reason why they expected the kingdom to be restored from the prophets, I was referring to 1st century Jews raised in IT Judaism; the prophet's passages, not the new lines in Lk 1-2, would have been the source, and certainly the source of 'from the law' in Jn 12:34. I don't think the Lk 1-2 lines were spread widely among all of them. 'Mary pondered these things in her heart' doesn't exactly sound like broadcasting them throughout the province.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
musterion said:
I dunno, Danoh. There's no indication of a chronological break. You want to speculate that there may be one, knock yourself out. I choose to say there wasn't one and, agreeing with Stam, that Peter was SO dedicated to the "great commission" that he could not fathom for years exactly why he was sent to Cornelius.

But the important point, on which we agree, is that IP is a railing fool with no idea what he's talking about.
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Right, you don't know the Bible, but you know I'm a fool. right.

Here is what ch 8 is about:
Stephen is put to death
Persecution spikes, separating believers
Philip, for one, ended up in Samaria, preaching. That's an AREA not one city.
Word gets back to Jerusalem that Samaria has responded.
Peter and John go check it out; it's true.
Peter and John preach in many Samaritan villages.

Please note that this 'sideways' detail about Samaria is extremely valuable in showing the disconnection to Judaism's radicals. They didn't come from Samaria! Yet like the mission statement said, God was going to Samaria after Judea. In fact, it never mentions Galilee, that I know of, as a mission target.

Keep in mind the Roman admin person reading/hearing this. He'd see the effort in Samaria and go, so there's no connection to Galilee, so there's no problem.

As for the junkpile of D'ist junktheology that confuses all this about 'out of order' etc, I see nothing. God was moving his mission around where he said he intended. D'ists don't think it is about the mission, but about expecting crumbs and tidbits about the restoration of Israel to be mentioned.

What Peter found as mistaken (the idea that God has favorites) he overcame during the Cornelius conversion, but then he got pressured and caved in later, Gal 2. He had to be helped back out by Paul.

Peter uses the expression that is in so many of Paul's key statements 'God does not show favoritism'. this shows the utter unity of the apostles including the new one.

D'ism seems hopelessly out of touch with what is going on.
 
Right Divider

Right Divider

Body part
Interplanner said:
The next verse says that some of them (maybe him too) then went and preached to Greeks.

Believe your Bible.

And the Lord blessed them.

Believe your Bible.

Your group is pathologically practicing everything you criticize. You know, the battering ram in the eye for removing a splinter in someone else's? Ever heard of it?
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Some Jews were also Greek numskull.
 
Right Divider

Right Divider

Body part
Interplanner said:
But the point is that those who were not Jews were preached to. as usual you sound so know it all and love to despise and say almost nothing that matters.
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That is NOT what the scripture says.

Acts 11:19 (AKJV/PCE)​
(11:19) ¶ Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
​

What is wrong with you?

Grecian's are Greek speaking JEWS!

I'd think that a brilliant historian would know these things.
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
“Non-dispensational teachers have endeavored to bring over the many promises of the physical and material aspects of kingdom salvation into the present dispensation, giving hope of material prosperity and physical health, as well as political peace. Failure to realize these promised goals has caused many to lose faith and to become bitter toward God Himself. The failure, of course, is not of God, but of teachers who have refused to rightly divide the Word of Truth.”
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SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
Right, you don't know the Bible, but you know I'm a fool. right.

Here is what ch 8 is about:
Stephen is put to death
Persecution spikes, separating believers
Philip, for one, ended up in Samaria, preaching. That's an AREA not one city.
Word gets back to Jerusalem that Samaria has responded.
Peter and John go check it out; it's true.
Peter and John preach in many Samaritan villages.

Please note that this 'sideways' detail about Samaria is extremely valuable in showing the disconnection to Judaism's radicals. They didn't come from Samaria! Yet like the mission statement said, God was going to Samaria after Judea. In fact, it never mentions Galilee, that I know of, as a mission target.

Keep in mind the Roman admin person reading/hearing this. He'd see the effort in Samaria and go, so there's no connection to Galilee, so there's no problem.

As for the junkpile of D'ist junktheology that confuses all this about 'out of order' etc, I see nothing. God was moving his mission around where he said he intended. D'ists don't think it is about the mission, but about expecting crumbs and tidbits about the restoration of Israel to be mentioned.

What Peter found as mistaken (the idea that God has favorites) he overcame during the Cornelius conversion, but then he got pressured and caved in later, Gal 2. He had to be helped back out by Paul.

Peter uses the expression that is in so many of Paul's key statements 'God does not show favoritism'. this shows the utter unity of the apostles including the new one.

D'ism seems hopelessly out of touch with what is going on.
Click to expand...

All made up.
 
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