All you gotta do is show me where scripture presents the earths as a spinning globe propelling through space.
The earth is flat and we never went to the moon--Part II
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Good bye to you.
I came to this thread for discussion, not your mocking.
Are you trying to tell me that a plane cannot fly up over Dallas and fly in a circle?
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Nope.
No, I do not have to show that! The bible is not a science text book. The point is that it does not teach that the Earth is flat, which is a good thing because if it did I could prove that the bible was false.
Now, let's try again and see if we can give a straight answer to a really simple question that is intended to show more about you than it is about whether the Earth is flat.
If one could prove that the Earth could not possibly be flat and do so in a way that you could verify for yourself, would that be sufficient to persuade you that the Earth is not flat and that the bible does not teach that the Earth is flat?
You see, I ask the question because I think your answer is "No, Clete, I don't care what you think you can prove, I'm going to believe the Earth is flat and that the bible teaches that it is flat no matter what you or anyone else says."
That's for sure what Dave's answer is, he's demonstrated it and so has every other lunatic that's come on this thread defending this delutional stupidity. You all come on here acting all intellectually honest and cincere but I don't buy it any more. If you're not intellectually honest enough to drop something that is clearly and simply falsified in a way that you can verify for yourself then there no point in even discussing it because you're not even being rational, never mind honest.
Prove me wrong. Please!
Clete
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It is very simple to see that the moon is a globe... why would people think that the earth is not?
The curvature of the Earth is gradual enough at the human scale that it is below our sensory threshhold and so it looks and feels flat to us. So, simply thinking the Earth is flat out of shear ignorance isn't the problem.
The problem stems from the fact that it doesn't take all that much to figure it out and anyone who is of even average intelligence and honesty can discover for themselves the reasons why mankind has known that the Earth is round since ancient times.
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I completely agree....
But, we can observe other objects in space and see that they are not flat... this should make it obvious that the earth is ALSO not flat.
The moon is the easiest to observe and is clearly a ball and not a plate.
Obvious unless you're delusional and you think that almost everyone is lying to you about almost everything.
SaulToPaul 2
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The god of this world is the father of lies, according to the Lord Jesus Christ.
It makes sense to question everything we're told while living in this present evil world.
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Within reason... some things are being unreasonably questioned.
Right, you don't have to.
It does not teach the earth is a spinning globe propelling through space.
That's what a lot of science data attempts to prove.
Well geese, Clete, if anything can be PROVEN then why wouldn't anyone believe it?
That would hold true for anything.
I don't say whether the earth is flat or a spinning globe because I, personally, don't know for sure.
My interest is with what the bible says about the earth.
I'm not a dishonest person.
I just want to view this from what the bible says about it.
I see things the bible says about it that can not be possible on a globe earth.
If all that the bible says about the earth is only to be taken metaphorically, then that is just more of the bible to cast on the pile of not being historical, but metaphorical.
It seems that is the pile most want to cast the bible onto.
(Not saying that is you, just that through the ages many have presented "proof" that it is not to be taken literally.)
Reducing the bible more and more to just being akin to Aesop's fables book. (Has a moral message but is not literal).
Have a good day, Clete.
If you don't want to continue to discuss it with me, I'm ok with that.
I will discuss with those that do.
Sincerely,
Tambora
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It doesn't say one way or the other. There are a LOT of details about the creation that are not included in the Bible.
The Bible doesn't say one way or the other.
The Bible doesn't say one way or the other.
Do you think that God made us so that we could explore His creation?
Like...??
P.S. I've investigated many of the verses that supposedly "prove" that the earth is flat and they ALL fail to do that.
No, it doesn't make sense STP. Not everyone is lying to you about almost everything, which is precisely what one must believe in order to maintain for more than an hour that large percentages of people who work in any airospace, aviation, weather forcasting, astronomy, physics or government related job is in on the world wide, centuries long conspiracy to trick the hoy-paloy that the Earth is round for no good reason at all.
It's abosulte delusional stupidity that can be irrefutably falsified with 7th grade level math and one single observation of the sunrise or sunset that anyone with even a rudamentary sextant can perform.
Clete
I'm saying that there is no rational reason why I need to do that.
That's right and if anyone attempted to get you to prove biblically that the Earth was a round spinning ball orbiting the Sun, you'd be right to tell them that there is no reason for you to do that.
Why?
Because of the portion of what I said that you didn't quote! The bible is not a science text book! That's why! There are all sorts of things that the bible is silent about and for you to hold me to the standard of "All you gotta do is show me where scripture presents the earths as a spinning globe propelling through space." is not rational!
Who cares what they attempt to do?
I'm not talking about the sort of pseudo-proofs that modern science uses to "prove" things like global warming or over population or black holes or dark matter. I'm talking about the sort of proof that is truly and genuinely irrefutable. A proof that even a middle school aged public schooled child can understand and duplicate for himself.
Is this you responding to my question in the affirmative or is this you suggesting that nothing can be proven? I can't tell for sure whether you're being sarcastic or not.
Well, the bible doesn't have a whole lot to say about cosmological issues. It's an interesting topic of discussion and study but you aren't going to find a definite answer about whether the Earth is flat or round by reading a book that doesn't discuss that topic. Just as you wouldn't read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand to learn about how to properly train puppies, the bible is of little value when trying to figure out whether the Earth is flat or not.
I don't mean to suggest that you're a liar. I fully believe that you believe what you say you believe and so you aren't lying in the sense of trying to be deceptive. My point has to do with intellectual honesty in the sense that one is willing to accept the verdict of sound reason even if that verdict falsifies their doctrine. It's simple, plain old honest rationality that I'm looking for.
Well look, some of the bible is literally true and some of it isn't. There are figures of speech on every single page of the bible. There are whole sections of the bible that are flat out allegorical. Some things are taught as absolutes and others as rules of thumb. The point isn't to turn the bible into anything other than what it is or to take it in any way other than it was intended to be taken. And that sometimes takes some effort to accomplish because we are far removed in time from when the bible was written and some words and concepts don't mean now what they meant 2000+ years ago.
What I'm here to tell you is that there is not one single verse of scripture that requires one to believe that the Earth is flat. The Christian church nor the Jewish tradition that preceded it ever believed or taught that the Earth was flat. Not ever, not even one time for even ten minutes. The idea that it did is a myth. If you believe that the Earth is flat, it isn't because of the bible nor because of any doctrine that the church has ever taught. Rather, the modern day beleif that the Earth is flat eminates from YouTube and nothing else.
I'm totally fine discussing anything with anyone so long as they are at least trying to be rational and not being willfully ignorant and ignoring the arguments presented to them.
I'm going to assume that you were not being sarcastic a moment ago. The flavor of the rest of your post would seem to suggest that is most likely and so I want to present the following proof to you that the Earth cannot be flat. I've posted it several times on this thread and I'm sure you've probably already seen it, but look at it again with fresh eyes. I know its sort of long but don't let it glaze your eyes over and really think it through because I'm not exaggerating when I say that it is an utterly irrefutable proof that the Earth is not flat that you can verify for yourself. If math works (which it does) and the sun sets (which it does) then the Earth is not flat. Here's the proof....
FET (Flat Earth Theory) claims the Sun is approximately 3000 miles above the Earth and they do not dispute well established distances between points on the surface of the Earth. I'm going to be using these two presuppositions in my calculations and you'll want to refer to the following diagram to keep track of the variables...
View attachment 26417
Side a is the distance from the ground to the Sun (3000 mi).
Side b is the distance from an observer to a point on the Earth where it is high noon (the point at which the Sun is at it's highest point in the sky).
Side c (a.k.a. the hypotenuse) is the distance from the observer to the Sun itself.
Angle A is the height of the Sun above the horizon in degrees as seen from the observer.
Angle C is always 90°
Angle B is not relevant to this discussion.
Note from the start that if the Earth is flat and the Sun is 3000 miles up (or any number of miles up for that matter) that angle A can never ever get to 0°. The Sun would never set because no matter how long you make side b of that triangle, angle A is always a positive number. The only way for the Sun to set on a flat Earth is if the Sun dipped below the plane of the flat Earth. If that were to happen, then it would be night everywhere on Earth at once, which we know does not happen. It's always high noon somewhere on the Earth.
That, by itself, ought to be enough to convince anyone that the Earth cannot be flat but there more. Let's take a look at some of these photos we took last week...
So, since we're assuming a flat Earth, I'm going to focus on just a couple of photos that both show the position of the Sun in degrees above the horizon. I should point out that you don't have to trust the numbers generated by the app on the phones used to take these photos. The numbers can be confirmed by anyone by simply fashioning a simple sextant from a cheap plastic protractor.
I'll use these two photos...
View attachment 26418 View attachment 26419
On the left is the Sun's position as seen from my house on May 8th at 01:00 UCT (8:00:01pm central time)
On the right is the Sun's position as seen from Knight's house on the same day just 38 seconds later (7:00:39pm mountain time).
The position of the Sun at my house is just .1° above the horizon while at Knight's it was 10.2° (This information is displayed just to the right of the Sun position indicator. It shows the Sun's heading and then it's elevation in degrees. On Knight's photo it's sort of hidden a little by the NW direction indicator but it reads "Sun 284.0 W 10.2°" The 10.2 is the elevation above the horizon in degrees)
So, let's look at Knight's first...
How far West would you have to go from Knight's house (where sides b and c meet) to get to a place on a flat Earth where it was high noon (where sides a and b meet)?
It turns out that when dealing with right triangles if you have the length of any one side and either angle A or B, you can know everything about the whole triangle!
The math is boring and so I'm not going to show all that. Just go HERE and plug in the numbers for side b (3000) and angle A (10.2).
You get the following results...
Someone 16,700 miles (length of side b) to his west would see the Sun at it's highest point in the sky for that day.
There is no point on Earth 16,700 miles from Denver Colorado.
Still not convinced? Well just wait till you plug in the numbers from my house!
At my house the Sun was only .1 degrees above the horizon. So plugging in the numbers from my house (side b = 3000 and angle A = .1) we get the following results...
You have to go 1,720,000 miles to my West to find high noon beneath a Sun that was 3000 miles above the surface of a flat Earth.
That's One MILLION seven hundred twenty THOUSAND miles!
(That's more that 7 times the real distance to the Moon!)
Now seriously folks! What more proof could you possibly need? How are you going to possibly refute this?
Are you going to deny that the Sun is about 10° further above the horizon in Denver than it is in Houston? Even if you did that, the distance to noon calculations aren't dependent on that!
Are you going to challenge the validity of the Pythagorean Theorem?
It seems that's your only option! It's either refute the Pythagorean Theorem or you must reject the notion that the Earth is flat based on the mere fact that the Sun gets to within .1° of the horizon at one point on the Earth while at the same time being directly over head at another.
Clete
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Not the best picture, but taken personally with my cell phone.
View attachment 26883
Note the curved shadow on the left hand side (the sun was setting to the right).
This clearly demonstrates that the moon is not flat, but a globe. Why would anyone think that the earth in any different?
View attachment 26883
Note the curved shadow on the left hand side (the sun was setting to the right).
This clearly demonstrates that the moon is not flat, but a globe. Why would anyone think that the earth in any different?
Oh my gosh! please do not tell me that you actually sign on to this flat earth nonsense? Please tell me that you are not buying this lie...
The Bible doesn't tell you that anything other than a bird can fly either...much less an airplane flys in a circle over Dallas yet, you see airplanes flying everyday. There are many things that the Bible does not address as it relates to the knowledge that the authors had no idea of at the time, the Bible does not speak of telephones, television, electricity, cars, or much else of modern technology but, there it is...It does not make the Bible false anymore than it makes all science & technology false. The Bible is a guide to life with Him, not an answer to the validity of all things science & technology that didn't exist when it was written...that is just nonsense.
Rocky!
What a pleasure to see you again.
I agree the bible does not tell us about telephones and airplanes, etc. that men have made.
But it does tell us about the earth GOD made.
I've said my hello to you (again, good to see ya).
Now I'm gonna mess with ya! hehe!
It does too!
Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
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