ECT The Cross Has Made You Flawless

[Right Divider]

Yes with Him we can do anything. Jesus told us the way.

"Abide in me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:4-5

He does not force us to worship, to pray, to commune with Him. But how it is if we do?
Paul says to do those continually, not a legality, but a practacality. We need Him. His power is made perfect in our weakness.

So you're one of the 12? (Actually 12 minus one)

It always amazes me when religious folk like yourself are so zealous and yet completely ignore the CONTEXT as the passages of scripture that you quote.

 

[Tambora]

Semantics doesn't matter - the claim here was that we are flawless in Christ which implies either we don't sin or our sins are overlooked since HE sees the blood instead BUT

then why are we chastised??? For our flawlessness? Obviously not. Then for sin but if we are being chastised for sin until we are trained in righteousness, Heb 12:11, how are we flawless? Our righteousness is obviously lacking!!??

My theology reconciles this contradiction easily but all some can do is ignore the implications of Heb 12:5-11 or attack me personally.

The church of the firstborn is Israel.

 

[Interplanner]

So you're one of the 12? (Actually 12 minus one)

It always amazes me when religious folk like yourself are so zealous and yet completely ignore the CONTEXT as the passages of scripture that you quote.

RightDivider has a point. The open-ended claims of John 13-17 are qualified as things that will glorify Christ.

The OP confuses whether it is talking about justification in Christ or about the individual tranformations through the Spirit. They are related but not identical. There has always been trouble when they have been confused. Justification is not a personal transformative experience, but it leads to them. It is not an effect, it is a cause. It is not heat, it is light, etc. Related but not identical.

 

[Cross Reference]

Semantics doesn't matter - the claim here was that we are flawless in Christ which implies either we don't sin or our sins are overlooked since HE sees the blood instead BUT

then why are we chastised??? For our flawlessness? Obviously not. Then for sin but if we are being chastised for sin until we are trained in righteousness, Heb 12:11, how are we flawless? Our righteousness is obviously lacking!!??

My theology reconciles this contradiction easily but all some can do is ignore the implications of Heb 12:5-11 or attack me personally.

You should not be for that because the Father chastises who He loves. Why? Because He wants His child perfected in righteousness unto son-ship; in union with Himself.

 

[Cross Reference]

We are legally not held accountable because of Jesus' sacrifice and our acceptance thereof, but that does not translate into actuality.
We are ALL sinners saved by Grace and IF we sin we have an advocate with the Father. 1 John 2:1-2 (NIV)

If not held accountable when we dirty our white robes that were spotless when He gave them to us, what does that say about God's toleration of sin in our lives? Should we expect to receive His best for our lives and relationship with Him? Would not such sin hinder his intentions for saving us; our ability to reveal Him to others? Now, carry the same question over to include our eternal life? However, perhaps you don't believe God has any intentions for having saved us?

 

[Cross Reference]

Not for our sins...we are no longer under the law.... but for our growth.

By that reasoning, if we love God and want to know His ways, we should keep sinning.

We are in the process of being conformed into the image of the Son.

Do you personally know anyone in your crowd who is not indifferent to being conformed to the image of God or even thinks about it to care that he would be willing to alter his present life style for success in the matter? Warning! That could be construed to mean "works salvation". Sorry 'bout that. Can't go there, can we?

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:​

Spoken to those who have insight into what God is after from them who already know they are son-children and as such, purposed to be "brought unto Glory".

In this world we will have tribulation. We shouldn't be attributing that tribulation to God, and sometimes that is exactly what people do. All things work together for good, for those who love God.

Tribulation can be many things and have many purposes in the life of one chosen of God who is being perfected for the glory that awaits him. Both Joy and vision kept Jesus in his hour of temptation-cross. One thing though, it is not the wrath of God unless for unrepentant sin. Otherwise, it is for His enemies.

 

[ttruscott]

Not for our sins...we are no longer under the law.... but for our growth. We are in the process of being conformed into the image of the Son.

...

Of course we are but it clearly says that we are painfully chastised to train us in righteousness. If we are perfect we need no such training. This phrase proves we are not yet heaven ready because we still miss the mark of righteousness.

What can "for our growth" possibly mean if it does not mean to train us to quit making wrong (sinful) choices? A child grows naturally but we will scourge (GOD's word) him, whip him with a whip with imbedded bits of metal, to make sure that he does not stray even though he as made no wrong decision???

His wrong decisions may not be counted as sins but they miss the mark and outside of Christ they are sins so if we are still missing the mark, how can it be said we are flawless except in GOD's legal system, but certainly not in our hearts which need further training by suffering! ???

 

[Interplanner]

God's love for us in justification compels us to improve and sacrifice. I say that in case "God's legal system" doesn't communicate.

 

[ttruscott]

God's love for us in justification compels us to improve and sacrifice. ...

If we are flawless, what need have we to improve and sacrifice?

To be seen as flawless, that is, as if we were flawless, because we are in Christ who is flawless is a legal framework.

To become flawless by painful discipline to train us into making righteous choices forever is to be sanctified in ourselves, perfectly flawless in fact and not just how HE legally accepts us in Christ.

 

[Right Divider]

If we are flawless, what need have we to improve and sacrifice?

The "flawless" is in regard to our standing and not our behavior.

 

[Interplanner]

that's right RightD,
there is complete confusion if justification and transformation are mixed or confused.

Likewise, there is complete confusion if the 1st century Judean features of eschatology and the future worldwide judgement are mixed.

 

[Right Divider]

that's right RightD,
there is complete confusion if justification and transformation are mixed or confused.

Likewise, there is complete confusion if the 1st century Judean features of eschatology and the future worldwide judgement are mixed.

Your philosophy is unbiblical.

 

[Interplanner]

So who are you? You have to give reasons, man, like I did. Your statement on standing and performance was spot on. Well done. But now you are just protecting yourself from the pain of actual study and real questions. No good.

 

[Interplanner]

In fact, one of those two lines is your philosophy, too!

 

[Right Divider]

Ahhhhhh

 

[Tambora]

The "flawless" is in regard to our standing and not our behavior.

 

[Cross Reference]

that's right RightD,
there is complete confusion if justification and transformation are mixed or confused.

Likewise, there is complete confusion if the 1st century Judean features of eschatology and the future worldwide judgement are mixed.

Not complete at all. You just need to have it that way to exhibit, what might seem to the unlearned your, scholastic pride. You have no Spiritual insight that you might discern correctly what Jesus told His Disciples. Those with insight, recognize that.

 

[Interplanner]

When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory, Col 3. Not in this life!

When we have this hope, we do purify ourselves. But we do not reach perfection in human performance and, anyway, previous failures would count against any perfection we think we have accomplished.

 

[musterion]

Sing it from the rooftops!!!!!!!!!

Flawless

From a devotional I read pretty much ever morning:

"If ministers and teachers of God's Word would set saints free and establish them in the Gospel, let their preaching and teaching be based upon the sixth and seventh of Romans, the central theme of which is our union with the Lord Jesus in death and burial; and our resurrection and ascension with Him into newness of life; where not the law, but grace, reigneth; where not the letter but the Spirit, moveth the heart and life of the believer. Satan will fight most fiercely against such teaching, but no other will establish the Lord's people."

"If God has declared that we died, we did die. If God has declared us discharged from the law, we are discharged and are hereby God's free children, 'new creatures,' 'created after God in righteousness and true holiness.'

"Our longing for conformity to the image of God's Son shall be confirmed and fulfilled by the Holy Spirit who hath been given unto us. No man can believe he has a right to walk freely and fully in the Spirit until he believes himself to be free from the law." -William R. Newell

"We should give our consent to our Father when He seeks to lead us through devastating processes. And we need have no fear, for He knows how to apportion our suffering. He exactly matches the suffering to our condition. He measures all things with unfailing accuracy and selects the particular trial suited to our particular need.

"He invariably chooses the lot of each with this in view an increase of the divine content in our lives. If He chastens us, it is always 'for our profit, that we may be partakers of his holiness.' And 'all things work together for good to them that are called according to his purpose.' What good? What purpose? This, 'that we may be conformed to the image of his Son.'"

"Let suffering come from any cause in the universe, if we give it over entirely into the hand of our Father, and sink ourselves into His blessed will, with the desire for Him to work His purpose in us, He will make every pain, every tear, every particle of our suffering work in us a death to sin and to the old man, and to all things on earth which will be for our highest development and for His glory." -G.W.

"The learning of what I am and of what I have been in Adam, is truly humbling; but it need not be distressing if I see that all those conditions which have been present with me have just been the occasion for my Father to bring to light what is in His heart concerning me. When I see this, those very conditions magnify before my soul the greatness of His salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.

"The weakness that is in myself, and the many things which I have to deplore in my past, or perhaps even in my present, make me thankful to know that my Father has brought in another Man, and has secured in Him all His own thoughts of blessing manward.

"There is what is perfect and absolutely for God's satisfaction and delight in the Lord Jesus, and it remains unaffected by what I find in myself. Nay! every self-discovery makes His perfection more a necessity to my heart. What I learn and experience in myself makes me rejoice to believe on Another in whom every promise of God is Yea and Amen." -C.A.C.

"The secret of being like the Lord Jesus is, that we are to count ourselves dead to the old and alive in the new. We are to give up our self-efforts after likeness to Him; we are to distrust our own strength as much as we distrust our own weakness and our own sin; and instead of striving to live like the Lord Jesus, let Him live through us, as He greatly desires to do."

 

[Angel4Truth]

From a devotional I read pretty much ever morning:

Beautiful, thank you for sharing those