the church

Right Divider

Body part
Yes, God forgives our sins. And Christ is the Mediator.

Do you believe God could, if He wanted, establish a priesthood to deliver His forgiveness, through Christ, to sinners?
It's funny when people keep asking silly questions in a vain attempt to justify their man-made religions.

God gave Israel a priesthood; God did NOT give the body of Christ a priesthood.

If God had given a body of Christ a priesthood, He would have had Paul write about it.

Occurrences of 'priest' or 'priesthood' in Paul's epistles: ZERO!
 

glassjester

Well-known member
It's funny when people keep asking silly questions in a vain attempt to justify their man-made religions.


The OT makes it clear that God forgives sins. Yet this forgiveness could be administered through a priesthood, right?

Yet that fact, in no way, diminished God's ability or role in forgiving sins.


Occurrences of 'priest' or 'priesthood' in Paul's epistles: ZERO!

Funny, zero is the same number of places where Paul says we are justified by faith alone.
 

Right Divider

Body part
The only priesthood written about in the New Testaments is of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ. John being the representative of the levitical law and Jesus being of the king of Salem one. I think it was melchizidek. As far as John the Baptist goes it's sorta a given considering his actions and his family Luke 1:5. But it is true we have elders and the like in the NT... But weren't these appointed by the apostles themselves?
The body of Christ is NOT a continuation of Israel. Plain and simple, but most prefer the legends and myths of churchianity to actual Bible truth.

Since the new testament cannot start until the death of Jesus, John was not part of it.
 

Right Divider

Body part
The OT makes it clear that God forgives sins. Yet this forgiveness could be administered through a priesthood, right?
Once again, your irrelevant questions. God gave Israel a priesthood; we are not Israel, we are the body of Christ (if you want to join).

Yet that fact, in no way, diminished God's ability or role in forgiving sins.
Blah, blah, blah.... irrelevant.

Funny, zero is the same number of places where Paul says we are justified by faith alone.
Don't topic JUMP (and yes, he did... you just don't want to believe him, you want a righteousness of your own).

There is NO priesthood in the BODY OF CHRIST.... we have ONE MEDIATOR and it's not someone pretending to be a priest.
 

glassjester

Well-known member
There is NO priesthood in the BODY OF CHRIST.... we have ONE MEDIATOR and it's not someone pretending to be a priest.

And still Paul urges Christians to pray and intercede for one another.
Why do you think he does that?

Christ is indeed the one Mediator.

But that doesn't mean Christians do not help one another to Christ, does it?
Just as a certain bridge may be the one route across a river, but many routes may lead to that particular bridge.

And Christ has the authority (all authority, in fact) to have others work on His behalf, does He not?
Your strict interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:5 renders Jesus Himself a heretic, based on His words in the twentieth chapter of John's Gospel:
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
 

Right Divider

Body part
And still Paul urges Christians to pray and intercede for one another.
Why do you think he does that?
Because we should pray for one another; duh.

Where is the interceding? Please be specific so that we not just wondering all over the place.

There are only four places Paul mentions intercession:
  • Romans 11:2; Elijah making intercession to God against Israel.
  • Romans 8:34; Christ making intercessions for us to God.
  • Romans 8:26,27; the Spirit making intercession for us.
Christ is indeed the one Mediator.

But that doesn't mean Christians do not help one another to Christ, does it?
Completely define on WHAT you mean by that. If you mean priests, then you're dead wrong.

Just as a certain bridge may be the one route across a river, but many routes may lead to that particular bridge.
Do you work at Google?

And Christ has the authority (all authority, in fact) to have others work on His behalf, does He not?
Yes, He has MANY members in His body and ONE is NOT greater than another.

Your strict interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:5 renders Jesus Himself a heretic, based on His words in the twentieth chapter of John's Gospel:
You're just like SOOOOOOO many that cannot understand the difference between God's dealings with Israel and His NEW CREATURE.

This is why you think that you need a continuation of the "priesthood", but yours is a FALSE one that is condemning people to hell.
 

glassjester

Well-known member
Because we should pray for one another; duh.

Why should we? Christ is the one Mediator. Why should I pray for my fellow man?
If I pray to God for my brother, have I not diminished Christ's role as one Mediator?


Where is the interceding? Please be specific so that we not just wondering all over the place.

1 Timothy 2:1 - I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people--



Completely define on WHAT you mean by that. If you mean priests, then you're dead wrong.

I mean that it does not diminish Christ's role as Mediator at all, if He chooses to grant others the authority to administer His forgiveness. Otherwise He wouldn't have specifically done so in John 20.

No more so than if I were to pray to God for my brother.



Do you work at Google?

How about addressing the actual point?
Christ can be the one Mediator, while Christians help bring others to Christ. Why not?


Yes, He has MANY members in His body and ONE is NOT greater than another.

Agreed. But different members have different roles, no?



You're just like SOOOOOOO many that cannot understand the difference between God's dealings with Israel and His NEW CREATURE.

The risen Christ was instructing His apostles to minister only to Israel?
That would seem to contradict the great commission, wouldn't it?

Please explain. What did Jesus mean when He told the apostles to forgive sins?
 

Right Divider

Body part
Why should we? Christ is the one Mediator. Why should I pray for my fellow man?
If I pray to God for my brother, have I not diminished Christ's role as one Mediator?
I guess that you have no idea what a mediator is or what the number one means.

1 Timothy 2:1 - I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people--
1Tim 2:1-2 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:1) I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; (2:2) For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

:thumb:

I mean that it does not diminish Christ's role as Mediator at all, if He chooses to grant others the authority to administer His forgiveness. Otherwise He wouldn't have specifically done so in John 20.

No more so than if I were to pray to God for my brother.
You're not one the people in John 20. The TWELVE apostles that will judge the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL are not our guides today. Your Romanist thief "church" just tries to steal THEIR business.

How about addressing the actual point?
Christ can be the one Mediator, while Christians help bring others to Christ. Why not?
Anyone can do that: No priesthood needed; hence the word is MISSING from ALL thirteen of the epistles written by the apostle of the gentiles, Paul.

Agreed. But different members have different roles, no?
Yes, and not a SINGLE one of those roles is a priest; hence the word is MISSING from ALL thirteen of the epistles written by the apostle of the gentiles, Paul.

The risen Christ was instructing His apostles to minister only to Israel?
That would seem to contradict the great commission, wouldn't it?
The NEW CREATURE is missing from all of the scripture until God revealed it to Paul.

The "great commission" was most definitely about Israel and their kingdom.

Please explain. What did Jesus mean when He told the apostles to forgive sins?
You mean the TWELVE apostles that will sit on TWELVE thrones judging the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL?

Paul is not one of those apostles. He is the one that Christ called His chosen vessel, do whom He gave a dispensation of the gospel; the gospel of the grace of God. You should listen to him.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
-18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter
-19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven
-peter got the keys
-and
-the power to bind and loose
-that means he was in charge
-someone must be in charge
-that should be clear

Here the Lord refers to the "keys of the kingdom of heaven," the same kingdom referred to here by the Lord Jesus:

"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Mt.4:17).​

Since the nation of Israel failed to recognize the Lord Jesus as their promised Messiah the setting up of the earthly kingdom has been postponed until the return of the Lord Jesus to earth:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk.21:27-31).​

It will not be until the kingdom is brought to earth when the Apostles will "bind on earth" what "shall be bound in heaven." That will not happen until the Apostles will sit upon twelve tribes judging the twelve tribes of Israel in the kingdom:

"That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Lk.22:30).​

This speaks of the millennial reign of the Lord Jesus, the time when Israel will be restored to her previous position of being a special people unto the Lord. Therefore the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" have nothing to do with what is happening now within the Body of Christ.
 
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Catholic Crusader

Kyrie Eleison
Banned
Yes, God forgives our sins. And Christ is the Mediator.
Do you believe God could, if He wanted, establish a priesthood to deliver His forgiveness, through Christ, to sinners?

Did you know you have almost stated Catholic doctrine to the letter? Only God can forgive sins!! Christ forgave sins on earth, and gave that authority to certain men to exercise in his name. That is what the Bible states clearly to those who actually read it without prejudice, and that is what we believe.
 

Catholic Crusader

Kyrie Eleison
Banned
Did you know you have almost stated Catholic doctrine to the letter? Only God can forgive sins!! Christ forgave sins on earth, and gave that authority to certain men to exercise in his name. That is what the Bible states clearly to those who actually read it without prejudice, and that is what we believe.
Yes. Quite intentionally.
I am, after all, very Catholic.
PS - "Almost" to the letter? What did I miss?

Oh, I did not know you are Catholic. That's great.
I guess you didn't really "miss" anything. It was posed as a question, and I didn't know you were Catholic. That's all.
 

Catholic Crusader

Kyrie Eleison
Banned


A
s has been stated elsewhere:

..............Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.

Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.

FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH

If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches. The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church. His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2). Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23). But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10)
Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28). Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19). The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2). These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself. Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20). He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.

The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.


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