The Church in the Book of Revelation

[Arial]

I was giving you an example of what you're supposed to ask a person to see if they believe what is required to be saved.

Sorry it went over your head.

I wasn't asking you to tell me what according to you we should ask a person in order to know if they are saved. BTW, is it you who should be going around checking to see if people are saved? Isn't the commission to preach the gospel. Not check people's salvation to see if it is real?

I asked you to tell me what the gospel is according to you. If you are following the commission, you should be able to do so and from memory. People you preach the gospel to are going to either tell you to shove off, or they are going to start asking you a lot of questions. Are you prepared and equipped to do so, as we read in 2 Tim 4. Can you tell people why you believe what you do without using experiences, but the word of God?

So---if you were sharing the gospel with someone, what would you say?

 

[Tambora]

What if I told you scripture says that 1) the time of Christ's return can be hastened, and 2) that the Time of Jacob's Trouble doesn't have to be exactly seven years long, but can be shortened?

Right, so Daniel's prophesied 70 weeks may not be 70 weeks at all.

 

[Arial]

When Jesus was here in the flesh, He was preaching the Kingdom that will come upon the earth TO THE JEWS.

He was preaching to the Jews because He came to preach to them, giving them first opportunity to hear and believe. God has been revealed to all the world through Israel as He first revealed Himself to them. Jesus came to reveal God as the redemptive (eternal life and personal way)God, revelations that had not been given previously. He did so as God with us. He reached the kingdom of God to come, and eventually in a new earth, but He did not preach it as applying only to Jews. He taught it as applying to all who believe in Him. John 3:16; John 6:35; John 1:12; John 3:36 etc. (All in the gospel of John btw)

Thus, we are to know the RISEN LORD and what He revealed to Paul. I'm quite amazed that so many people simply IGNORE what our RISEN LORD revealed to Paul, and continue running back to something that was not intended for them at all.

Paul taught what Christ revealed to him. And though he traveled through Gentile lands, as he was also instructed to do, he also preached this very same gospel to Jews in those lands. And Peter, James, John, though they did not travel but remained in Jerusalem, as they were also instructed to do, preached also to Gentiles, and the very same gospel to each. What neither of them preached was that part of the gospel included that there were two kingdoms, one for the Jews that was of the earth and one for the Gentiles, the church, which was of heaven.

Rightly dividing is in the Bible, but you and others are too chicken to even consider doing it. Who is the verse addressed to?

That was another thing I discovered in my looking into MAD. They speak much of rightly dividing and do so with the assumptions that they are the only ones that rightly divide. That is an assumption that they do not and cannot support. And in any case dividing the word into the division of two means of salvation (one of them going completely backwards into a future works plus faith for the nation of Israel, crucifying His flesh all over again in the ritual sacrifices of animals) is not rightly dividing the word, it is dividing the redemption. Rightly dividing the word is not that. It is making straight and consistent with itself, and truthful all of the word.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Right, so Daniel's prophesied 70 weeks may not be 70 weeks at all.

The 70 weeks was for the arrival of Christ. It's already happened, except for the final week, which is for the events described in Revelation.

That final week can be shortened (the others cannot as they're in the past). And in fact, Jesus says they WILL be shortened, not just can be.

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. - Matthew 24:15-22 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew24:15-22&version=NKJV

 

[Tambora]

By their fruit you shall know.

The 70 weeks was for the arrival of Christ. It's already happened, except for the final week, which is for the events described in Revelation.

That final week can be shortened (the others cannot as they're in the past). And in fact, Jesus says they WILL be shortened, not just can be.

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. - Matthew 24:15-22 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew24:15-22&version=NKJV

If any of the 70 weeks are shortened then the 70 weeks prophesied by Daniel is not accurate.

 

[JudgeRightly]

By their fruit you shall know.

If any of the 70 weeks are shortened then the 70 weeks prophesied by Daniel is not accurate.

Which is more important to God? Love or prophecy?

I say love of His people is more important to God, than is His commitment to a prophecy.

Paul says:

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.For we know in part and we prophesy in part.But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. - 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians13:1-13&version=NKJV

How much more true is that for God?

Again: "but for [Israel's] sake" those days will be shortened...

 

[Tambora]

Which is more important to God? Love or prophecy?

I say love of His people is more important to God, than is His commitment to a prophecy.

Paul says:

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.For we know in part and we prophesy in part.But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. - 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians13:1-13&version=NKJV

How much more true is that for God?

Again: "but for [Israel's] sake" those days will be shortened...

One could counter the accuracy of any prophecy using that.
All the prophesies MAD claims is only accurate for Israel could be countered with it because God's love for all of mankind could trump it.
It's a MAD cherry pick.

 

[glorydaz]

I wasn't asking you to tell me what according to you we should ask a person in order to know if they are saved. BTW, is it you who should be going around checking to see if people are saved? Isn't the commission to preach the gospel. Not check people's salvation to see if it is real?

LOL Asking someone what they believe is part of preaching the Gospel. I guess we could just go up to someone and say, please be reconciled to God.

2 Cor. 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

I asked you to tell me what the gospel is according to you. If you are following the commission, you should be able to do so and from memory. People you preach the gospel to are going to either tell you to shove off, or they are going to start asking you a lot of questions. Are you prepared and equipped to do so, as we read in 2 Tim 4. Can you tell people why you believe what you do without using experiences, but the word of God?

So---if you were sharing the gospel with someone, what would you say?

Ah, still trying to weasel out of it. You gave two examples of the Gospel and neither of them was the Gospel of Salvation.
Even your statement about the "commission" shows me you don't know what you're talking about.

We don't have to push people to hear the gospel, so there is no need for someone to tell us to "shove off". We actually have the discernment given us by the Holy Spirit when we talk to those in need of hearing the gospel. God sends them to us with a need to know.

You, for instance, have no desire to know the truth. I'm not sure I would waste a second telling you of the death, burial, and resurrection and how we are justified by faith in the blood. In fact. I'm sure you're not ready to hear the truth. You'll have to put off your foolish pride first.

 

[glorydaz]

One could counter the accuracy of any prophecy using that.
All the prophesies MAD claims is only accurate for Israel could be countered with it because God's love for all of mankind could trump it.
It's a MAD cherry pick.

That's not true. It isn't only MAD that believes and understands prophecy.

 

[Arial]

LOL Asking someone what they believe is part of preaching the Gospel. I guess we could just go up to someone and say, please be reconciled to God.

And if they ask you how do we do that?

Ah, still trying to weasel out of it. You gave two examples of the Gospel and neither of them was the Gospel of Salvation.
Even your statement about the "commission" shows me you don't know what you're talking about.

What exactly am I trying to weasel out of. Are you talking to yourself in the mirror when you say things like that? It is you that is weasling. Instead of ever giving a direct answer to what I asked you to do, you simply turn sarcasism and insulting. It is a typical deflective message of false teachers. What part of Peter and Paul's gospel that I posted failed to mention Jesus' life and death and resurrection, and if we believe this, we will be saved? Did you fail to read them?

We don't have to push people to hear the gospel, so there is no need for someone to tell us to "shove off". We actually have the discernment given us by the Holy Spirit when we talk to those in need of hearing the gospel. God sends them to us with a need to know.

I simply said that would be the reaction of some people. Where does the the Bible say that God sends those who need to hear the gospel to us and somehow we know that? Everyone needs to hear the gospel. That sounds like an excuse to never preach it to anyone because the Holy Spirit didn't tell you to.

You, for instance, have no desire to know the truth. I'm not sure I would waste a second telling you of the death, burial, and resurrection and how we are justified by faith in the blood. In fact. I'm sure you're not ready to hear the truth. You'll have to put off your foolish pride first.

If you had read any of my postswhere I am not tangled up in your spider web, and even some of those, then you know that what you say is not true. But that is another thing I have noticed on this forum with the likes of you. If someone doesn't agree with your division of the redemption of Christ, in your pride and self exaltation, you pronounce them unbelievers and by extension, on their way to hell. Every MAD believer I have dealt with on this forum has done that to me. Don't forget that the righteous will also be judged by every word that comes out of their mouth. Probably as to reward, but not as to salvation.

 

[JudgeRightly]

One could counter the accuracy of any prophecy using that.

Not at all.

Not every prophecy deals with the end times. The prophecy of the last week of 70 weeks is dealing with the end times. What Jesus said deals specifically with the end times.

All the prophesies MAD claims is only accurate for Israel could be countered with it because God's love for all of mankind could trump it.

Not at all.

It's a MAD cherry pick.

It's not.

 

[Tambora]

Not at all.

Not every prophecy deals with the end times. The prophecy of the last week of 70 weeks is dealing with the end times. What Jesus said deals specifically with the end times.



Not at all.



It's not.

I beg to differ.
By claiming one prophesy doesn't have to be accurate because of God's love, then the logical conclusion is that same reasoning can apply to any of them.
Nothing prevents that reasoning from applying to only end times prophesy.
But that's the cherry picking that has to happen to make one's ism fit.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I beg to differ.
By claiming one prophesy doesn't have to be accurate because of God's love, then the logical conclusion is that same reasoning can apply to any of them.
Nothing prevents that reasoning from applying to only end times prophesy.
But that's the cherry picking that has to happen to make one's ism fit.

I see what you're saying.

But I still disagree that it would be "cherry picking."

If a prophecy fails, and through its failure, a people turns to God, would that not be better, regardless of who's doctrine is vindicated?

 

[Tambora]

I see what you're saying.

But I still disagree that it would be "cherry picking."

This may come as a shock, but every ism cherry picks while claiming they don't.
That's why you see every ism accusing the other ism of doing it.
They think they are being witty by saying such things when it's actually worthless drivel to say to anyone in any argument since they will fire the same accusation right back at ya.
But hey, that's the way most theology threads are conducted these days as we have seen over and over and over again.

I'm all for any suggestions towards a movement to break the cycle of worthless drivel in theology threads.

If a prophecy fails, and through its failure, a people turns to God, would that not be better, regardless of who's doctrine is vindicated?

People claim all the time that they are safe with God even though they don't believe the Bible to be inspired, or accurate, or literal history, etc.
So it's really hard to give a blanket yes or not to the question because your view of what "turning to God" entails could be vastly different from others.

I don't know about you, JR, but in school I took classes on the art of debate.
I certainly don't claim to an expert, but I do recognize when certain tactics are used.
I use them myself, especially when I see my opponent doing it.

One tactic is to word a question in a way that makes your opponent seem uncaring or unlearned.
Classic example is

"Answer yes or no ........ Do you beat your wife regularly?"​

"No. "​

Oh, so not REGULARLY".​

"Wait, that's not what I meant."​

"Well that's what you said, I'm going by what your said."​

Try not to get sucked into demands of a yes or no question.
They'll find a way to turn your answer to their advantage.

Perhaps we can start a movement to eliminate those type of tactics used.

May God bless our studies as we explore and learn together.

 

[glorydaz]

And if they ask you how do we do that?

What exactly am I trying to weasel out of. Are you talking to yourself in the mirror when you say things like that? It is you that is weasling. Instead of ever giving a direct answer to what I asked you to do, you simply turn sarcasism and insulting. It is a typical deflective message of false teachers. What part of Peter and Paul's gospel that I posted failed to mention Jesus' life and death and resurrection, and if we believe this, we will be saved? Did you fail to read them?

I simply said that would be the reaction of some people. Where does the the Bible say that God sends those who need to hear the gospel to us and somehow we know that? Everyone needs to hear the gospel. That sounds like an excuse to never preach it to anyone because the Holy Spirit didn't tell you to.

If you had read any of my postswhere I am not tangled up in your spider web, and even some of those, then you know that what you say is not true. But that is another thing I have noticed on this forum with the likes of you. If someone doesn't agree with your division of the redemption of Christ, in your pride and self exaltation, you pronounce them unbelievers and by extension, on their way to hell. Every MAD believer I have dealt with on this forum has done that to me. Don't forget that the righteous will also be judged by every word that comes out of their mouth. Probably as to reward, but not as to salvation.

The likes of me?

Poor Arial. I have an idea. Instead of spending all your energy lecturing other people about how mistreated you are, why don't you actually support your ideas with scripture. We all have opportunities to "share the gospel". Perhaps if you think of it that way, you won't be expecting a long dissertation on what Paul has preached.

As far as sharing the gospel with you, I see there is a barrier ....a huge barrier, and when I see that barrier, I wait on the Lord. Yep, that's the way it works in the real world of believers.

 

[glorydaz]

I beg to differ.
By claiming one prophesy doesn't have to be accurate because of God's love, then the logical conclusion is that same reasoning can apply to any of them.
Nothing prevents that reasoning from applying to only end times prophesy.
But that's the cherry picking that has to happen to make one's ism fit.

Prophecy doesn't fail. But, another prophecy, is quite capable of elaborating on the first. We see that right here.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[Tambora]

Prophecy doesn't fail. But, another prophecy, is quite capable of elaborating on the first. We see that right here.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Or ...... perhaps "those days" are not the same days contained in the 70 weeks of Daniel chapter 9 so that both prophecies are accurate.

"Elaborating" would be adding additional info, not changing the info.

 

[glorydaz]

Or ...... perhaps "those days" are not the same days contained in the 70 weeks of Daniel chapter 9 so that both prophecies are accurate.

"Elaborating" would be adding additional info, not changing the info.

I don't think leaving room for God's mercy is changing any information, especially since Jesus was clear about why.

 

[Tambora]

That's not true. It isn't only MAD that believes and understands prophecy.

To say it is a MAD cherry pick doesn't mean MAD is the only ism that cherry picks it.

 

[Tambora]

I don't think leaving room for God's mercy is changing any information, especially since Jesus was clear about why.

So God's vision to Daniel wasn't meant to be taken as an accurate literal 70 weeks.
Or, the shortening of days was not about the 70 weeks.