The Church in the Book of Revelation

[Arial]

There are differing views on the millennial reign of Christ, some overlap in places, and no particular view as outlined by definitions, will fit all people who profess that view. We tend to think for ourselves (hopefully, for the most part) and draw our own conclusions and understanding. Whereas our millennial view, in my opinion, does not affect a person's salvation, (otherwise it would be as clear as the message of salvation is), there does lie within some of these views a bit of a stumbling block. That is, as I will point out, an unpreparedness for suffering and persecution, and a possible complacency in learning to detect Satan's various attempts to counterfeit Christ's church. To see it happening and to see where it is coming from and recognize the spiritual war that is going on in heaven even now against the church. Having said this, I also say that by the grace and power of God, all true believers are sealed by God as His people, and the gates of hell will not prevail against His church or its people. We can, however, find ourselves confused at times, forgetting to trust in God as turmoil rages around us, and not recognizing an enemy when it stares us in the face clothed in what appears to be light.

Revelation tells us exactly what is going on in the spiritual realm---now. It gives us a powerful picture of who our enemy is and how he works. And yes, his fury will become worse as we near the second coming, but we need to recognize his activity in the here and now so that we don't inadvertently fall for his deceptions and bring them right straight into our thinking and into the church. We will find some of these warnings in John's letter to the seven churches. Though they were literally to those seven literal churches, every warning contained in them is applicable to the church today.

In the teaching that the church will not be here during a literal seven year tribulation period, and that this is the time period addressed in Revelation, or that it will only be here during the first half of that same period, we run the risk of thinking none of Revelation applies to us, the church, in the warnings and revelation that the book is giving. We may not recognize the beast rising out of the sea, or the second beast rising out of the earth, and because of what they do and how they do it, actually welcome them into our congregations. In fact we see this happening now and it is rampant. We have neglected the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, do not recognize the enemy, are deceived by his right sounding words, maybe are simply complacent, or maybe are just afraid to challenge the deception for fear of what will happen to us. Following the 11th commandment of our day and often the only one we follow, "Be nice."

Satan has a desire to be worshiped as god, and so he counterfeits God at every turn. Revelation reveals this counterfeit vividly. There is a counterfeit trinity: The dragon, (Satan, the counterfeit of God) the beast (the counterfeit of Christ), and the false prophet (the prostitute, the counterfeit image of the bride of Christ). There are many counterfeits with in these basic counterfeits, but my focus for the moment is on these.

The beast rising out of the sea represents persecuting power, especially the power of the demonized state. The beast rising out of the earth is also called a false prophet, and he acts as a propagandist for the Beast. His actions counterfeit the witness of the Holy Spirit. The false prophet works miraculous signs drawing people to worship the beast, just as the Holy Spirit used miraculous signs to draw people to worship Christ. The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth; the false prophet deceives. Even the resurrection of Christ is counterfeited.

Satan attacks the church directly through deceit and doctrinal confusion. So there also exist false churches, who resemble Christ's church, borrowing much from Christian doctrine, yet denying such critical doctrines as the Trinity or the virgin birth, the resurrection, that Jesus is the only way to God, legalism, antinomianism, the insufficiency of Christ alone, faith alone etc.

The Beast represents state power and threatens to persecute, through threat of pain and death, to terrorize Christians into giving in.
The Prostitute of Revelation represents sex, money, and pleasure. She seduces, not through fear, but through the lure of pleasure. She does this outside and inside the church if we open those doors.

Do we see the Beast rising out of the sea, right now, realize it will get worse before it gets better, and stand against him beneath the shelter of God's wings, finding our refuge in Him, no matter what may come. Or do we say, hey I won't be here when that happens, or perhaps that only pertains to Israel the nation.? And find ourselves without the knowledge and solidity and absoluteness of the word of God as our only defensive weapon, which is not our fighting place, but our resting place.

Do we see the Prostitute, a few short years ago only accepted among our ranks, now being idolized in the form of CRT, being taught from our pulpits? And CRT itself being disguised as a good thing, a representation even of the meekness and loving nature of Christ, when at its core it is a Marxist driven agenda that always needs an oppressor to conquer, and the current named oppressor is Christianity. Do we see it? Is the church we attend among the faithful at His return? Are we watching and praying as Jesus instructed us to be doing concerning the days between the resurrection and His return?

Or do we worship in a church of which it could be said, "Our walls are broken down, and our gates are burned with fire," as the world and all it's enticements that feed the desires of our still fallen natures, so the pews are full and the coffers too? Telling ourselves it is a good thing. It will attract people to come in and hear the gospel, even though the gospel is seldom preached, but rather more feeding of the flesh. The gospel of the loaves and fishes.

Is it time for Christians to fall to their knees, recognize the sins against Christ and His church that we have allowed to darken the door? To repent in sackcloth and ashes and ask of Him forgiveness and for the strength and wisdom and endurance to recognize and stand against all deceptions of the evil one. He will forgive and give. It is time for us as individuals to pray for Christ's church as Nehemiah prayed over Jerusalem.

 

[Right Divider]

1Thess 1:10 (KJV)
(1:10) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1Thess 5:9 (KJV)
(5:9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The great tribulation is also called the time of Jacob's trouble for a reason.

 

[Arial]

The great tribulation is also called the time of Jacob's trouble for a reason.

As to the wrath of God, Christian's will never face the wrath of God against them. That does not mean they will not witness the wrath of God upon the nations.

You are defining the great tribulation as a specific time period. It does not follow that that is what it is. And there have already been two times in history when God restored a remnant of ethnic Jews to the land that He gave them. The first was when He brought a remnant out of their Babylonian captivity back to Jerusalem which is what Jer 30 is prophesying. The other, when many Jews returned to their homeland to escape the horrific devastation of Hitler and Israel again became a nation with many more returning. Israel was, is, and always will be uniquely special to God. He chose them in the first place, and for His own reasons and purposes, and through them brought salvation to all nations, tribes, languages, and peoples. From creation and the fall to the second coming is one uniform, unfolding of one plan and one purpose. Redemption of a people to dwell with God in a restored heaven and earth.

But to quibble over the details that do not affect salvation is to miss the majors, while we stay focused on the minors. Also to miss the message that I offered, and the primary message and purpose of Revelation. To comfort and strengthen God's people in whatever may come, give assurance of their salvation and His keeping their future with Him safe. So that we will lean on Him and trust in Him and fear not, for He is with us. And not be dismayed because He is our God.

 

[Right Divider]

As to the wrath of God, Christian's will never face the wrath of God against them. That does not mean they will not witness the wrath of God upon the nations.

Witness from heaven.

You are defining the great tribulation as a specific time period.

Why would you think that it's not?

It does not follow that that is what it is.

Why do you think that?

And there have already been two times in history when God restored a remnant of ethnic Jews to the land that He gave them. The first was when He brought a remnant out of their Babylonian captivity back to Jerusalem which is what Jer 30 is prophesying. The other, when many Jews returned to their homeland to escape the horrific devastation of Hitler and Israel again became a nation with many more returning. Israel was, is, and always will be uniquely special to God. He chose them in the first place, and for His own reasons and purposes, and through them brought salvation to all nations, tribes, languages, and peoples.

In the present dispensation, gentiles (and Jews) can be saved apart from and without Israel.

Rom 11:11 (KJV)
(11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

From creation and the fall to the second coming is one uniform, unfolding of one plan and one purpose.

Except that God had a secret that He kept hidden. God revealed this to and through the apostle Paul.

Eph 3:9-12 (KJV)
(3:9) And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: (3:10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, (3:11) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: (3:12) In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Redemption of a people to dwell with God in a restored heaven and earth.

God will eventually join His two things into one.

Eph 1:10 (KJV)
(1:10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

But to quibble over the details that do not affect salvation is to miss the majors, while we stay focused on the minors. Also to miss the message that I offered, and the primary message and purpose of Revelation. To comfort and strengthen God's people in whatever may come, give assurance of their salvation and His keeping their future with Him safe. So that we will lean on Him and trust in Him and fear not, for He is with us. And not be dismayed because He is our God.

Revelation ties all of the end times prophecies together and shows the culmination of God's plans.

 

[glorydaz]

The great tribulation is also called the time of Jacob's trouble for a reason.

Exactly. After the church is taken up to be with the Lord, only unbelievers will be left to go through the great tribulation that will come upon the whole world. This is why we are all desperately sharing the gospel with everyone we can. I feel an urgency, like never before, to warn people of what has been so clearly predicted in the word of God.

Israel will finally turn to their God.

 

[Arial]

Witness from heaven.

Those who remain alive at His second coming will witness it here on earth. And in fact we always have faced these tribulations and trials and sufferings, though they will ramp up to magnanimous proportions as we get closer to that time. You believe without question in the rapture. I question it. It is a relatively new theory, and really has but a couple of scriptures to support it, Those scriptures can be seen in other legit ways. The primary thing it has going for it is that it is popular.

Why would you think that it's not?

The end comes at a specific time---and there is a year before, a day before, and hour before etc---and that time is set by God and unknown to humanity, and uncalculatble by humanity. If there were a rapture which began a seven year period before His coming, the date of His second coming could be calculated. There is one reason. Reason two, there are other ways to interpret what is used to arrive at the seven year period. Three, Revelation is arranged in sevens, symbolizing in all of the Bible as complete or completion.

Why do you think that?

The fact that you believe in a seven year tribulation is not verification that such a thing is true.

In the present dispensation, gentiles (and Jews) can be saved apart from and without Israel.

You are using dispensations as an interpretive tool, which does change things, but does not mean they are right, or the only legitimate way to see things. In truth Jew and Gentile could always be saved apart from one another, and through the same means---the same means through which people are saved after the resurrection. Faith. Being of Israel did not guarantee salvation. Gentiles could be brought into the covenant community by keeping the covenant conditions. That did not guarantee their salvation. Now salvation is made possible for all tribes and nations and peoples, through faith in Jesus.

Except that God had a secret that He kept hidden. God revealed this to and through the apostle Paul.

The mystery is that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel. Eph 3:6 And it was revealed (v. 5b) by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets. The mystery is the church. One body. Not two. Paul was sent to the Gentiles to tell them this by preaching the same gospel that was first preached to the Jews. And (v9-11) and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known b the church to the principaplities and powers in the heavenly places, according to the eternal purposes which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God will eventually join His two things into one.

Well they aren't things, they are people, and He has joined them already.

Revelation ties all of the end times prophecies together and shows the culmination of God's plans

It shows the culmination of God"s Plan (singular). It has always been one plan. And gives an inside look at what is going on and has been since the resurrection, so that we do not lose hope or grow discouraged or complacent.

 

[Arial]

There should always be an urgency for sharing the gospel with the lost. Where is the urgency for praying for the church as we see the signs of the end? No need I guess if we think we won't be here. In the Revelation messages to the seven churches, Jesus was both commending them and warning them and pointing out where they fell short, and what they needed to do to change those things. The message was to the churches. So is the entire letter. And why do we suppose Jesus said this: I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8

 

[glorydaz]

There should always be an urgency for sharing the gospel with the lost. Where is the urgency for praying for the church as we see the signs of the end? No need I guess if we think we won't be here. In the Revelation messages to the seven churches, Jesus was both commending them and warning them and pointing out where they fell short, and what they needed to do to change those things. The message was to the churches. So is the entire letter. And why do we suppose Jesus said this: I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8

It certainly won't be the Church of God. Here in just three verses, we see it cannot be speaking of us.

Revelation 2:5-7
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Note all the "he that overcometh"s. We have overcome already....complete in Him.

It's the others who have to endure to the end.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The end comes at a specific time---and there is a year before, a day before, and hour before etc---and that time is set by God and unknown to humanity, and uncalculatble by humanity. If there were a rapture which began a seven year period before His coming, the date of His second coming could be calculated. There is one reason. Reason two, there are other ways to interpret what is used to arrive at the seven year period. Three, Revelation is arranged in sevens, symbolizing in all of the Bible as complete or completion.

What if I told you scripture says that 1) the time of Christ's return can be hastened, and 2) that the Time of Jacob's Trouble doesn't have to be exactly seven years long, but can be shortened?

 

[glorydaz]

What if I told you scripture says that 1) the time of Christ's return can be hastened, and 2) that the Time of Jacob's Trouble doesn't have to be exactly seven years long, but can be shortened?

I told her that once.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[Arial]

What if I told you scripture says that 1) the time of Christ's return can be hastened, and 2) that the Time of Jacob's Trouble doesn't have to be exactly seven years long, but can be shortened?

Who/what hastens it?
Who/what shortens it?

 

[Arial]

I told her that once.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I am a bit sceptical of arriving at an entire doctrine or belief from one sentence here, another there.

If a person believes that Revelation is speaking of a seven year period, then I suppose they could take this sentence and say that means that that time period could be shortened---if that is what you are saying,----or in fact will be to save the elect. However the elect cannot be lost. One of the primary purposes for Revelation is to assure the elect of their spiritual safety, no matter what man does to them.

If a person thinks that the tribulation period, as well as the thousand year reign of Christ is the time period from His resurrection to His second coming, it means something different, and considers other things in the sentence beside "those days shall be shortened."

Since God is sovereign and He makes the statement that His plan and purpose is eternal and will not change, that all of it unfolds from beginning to end according to His decree, that the days are shortened does not mean that the plan changed or something caused it to change. It simply means that if God had not determined an end to tribulation and initiated final judgment and restoration, no flesh would be left alive. In mercy He has an elect (believers), and there is an end to the evil one and his activity. Judgment comes. All is restored.

 

[Right Divider]

Those who remain alive at His second coming will witness it here on earth.

The Bible says otherwise for believers. It says that believers will be "caught up" with Christ.

1Thess 4:13-18 (KJV)
(4:13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (4:14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (4:15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (4:16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (4:17) Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (4:18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

"Caught up together with them in the clouds" is definitely NOT "here on the earth"

And in fact we always have faced these tribulations and trials and sufferings, though they will ramp up to magnanimous proportions as we get closer to that time.

General tribulation and the GREAT tribulation are not the same.

You believe without question in the rapture.

Indeed I do... because that's what the Bible teaches.

I question it.

Yes, I've noticed that you have problems with much of what the Bible teaches.

It is a relatively new theory,

1. The "theory" is in Paul's epistles. I consider that pretty old.
2. The age of the theory has NO bearing on it's validity. i.e., that is a fallacious argument.

and really has but a couple of scriptures to support it,

There is no MRVC (minimum required verse count) for any Bible doctrine.

Those scriptures can be seen in other legit ways.

Oh... do tell.

The primary thing it has going for it is that it is popular.

Irrelevant. Popularity does not validate or invalidate anything.

 

[Arial]

The Bible says otherwise for believers. It says that believers will be "caught up" with Christ.
"Caught up together with them in the clouds" is definitely NOT "here on the earth"

Why is Paul saying this in 1 Thess 4:13-18? He is responding to a particular issue, in this case a sorrow, or fear, of those who he was writing to. According to 2Esdras ( a Jewish work of the second century, those who survive until the second coming are more blessed than those who have died before.) It is possible the Thessalonians had heard this and had a sorrow over their loved dead. In any case what Paul is doing is saying all in Christ, whether dead or alive at His coming, are on equal footing. At HIs second coming the dead will rise and we who remain, will all be caught up to meet Him as He returns. It is speaking of the resurrection of the dead, and those who remain alive all being together with Him. There is actually nothing in that scripture that indicates there is a first second coming---then seven years of tribulation---then a second second coming.

General tribulation and the GREAT tribulation are not the same.

No, but it is all tribulation, the great tribulation being the greatest of all. But the saints are the ones who go through tribulation, as they are being persecuted always, sometimes more than other times, (Jesus tells us this), and because we still live in a fallen world and its effects. Even the wicked go through the effects of this falleness---the world the flesh and the devil---- but just judgment comes to the wicked, not the tribulation of persecution.

Indeed I do... because that's what the Bible teaches.

Dispensationalism teaches that----not the Bible.

Yes, I've noticed that you have problems with much of what the Bible teaches.

I have trouble with what men teach. That is why I check it against the Bible.

1. The "theory" is in Paul's epistles. I consider that pretty old.
2. The age of the theory has NO bearing on it's validity. i.e., that is a fallacious argument.

1 Except that it isn't in Paul's epistles. You are simply making one statement that Paul made---with no definitive teaching on any such thing anywhere else in his writings or those of any other apostle----to mean what you want it to mean. Paul and the other apostles were very clear on resurrection teaching, salvation through faith in Christ, on the very person of Christ and the very work He did and what it accomplished. On the foundational doctrines of Christ's church, in other words, as was the Christ given mission. A pre-trib rapture of believers is nowhere to be found among those teachings. So to say this one scripture is all it takes to establish a doctrine is incorrect.

There is no MRVC (minimum required verse count) for any Bible doctrine.

Oh but there is in a sense, though not an exact number. But all the teachings of Jesus and the apostles that appear in our Bible as the word of God, must all contain the very same truths and be consistent with one another. There cannot be one "alien truth" taught by one apostle and totally isolated from all else. A doctrine formed out of one passage would be doing just that.

Oh... do tell.

See above in first response.

Irrelevant. Popularity does not validate or invalidate anything.

Even though it is not irrelevant, the rest of your statement is a true statement, that popularity in and of itself does not validate or invalidate anything. It is true however that following the crowd may lead to indoctrination so deep that actually finding something for oneself without that covering over one's eyes, becomes next to impossible. Plus people tend to simply hold on to something that they like, for whatever reason, without question. I simply said that the belief in a rapture of the saints is popular (so popular in fact that little else is ever taught in our churches and to hear something else deemed unnecessary and next to impossible) and that, not scriptural exegesis or expounding, is its only support. Which is actually no support at all.

However----believing and hoping in such, or not, will change nothing of what actually happens. We will find out when we find out. One thing we know for sure is that Jesus told us to watch and pray and be ready less we be caught off guard when He appears. That is what is important.

 

[Right Divider]

Why is Paul saying this in 1 Thess 4:13-18? He is responding to a particular issue, in this case a sorrow, or fear, of those who he was writing to. According to 2Esdras ( a Jewish work of the second century, those who survive until the second coming are more blessed than those who have died before.)

To Paul was revealed the body of Christ and it's future. So I don't really care dhat 2Esdras says.

Regardless of why Paul wrote it, it says what it says and is not hard to understand. It's plain and clear.

It is possible the Thessalonians had heard this and had a sorrow over their loved dead. In any case what Paul is doing is saying all in Christ, whether dead or alive at His coming, are on equal footing.

Hilarious that you use "footing" when they will be UP in the CLOUDS with Christ.

At HIs second coming the dead will rise and we who remain, will all be caught up to meet Him as He returns.

Paul says "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air"... I believe him over you any day.

It is speaking of the resurrection of the dead, and those who remain alive all being together with Him.

Indeed... again "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air"

There is actually nothing in that scripture that indicates there is a first second coming---then seven years of tribulation---then a second second coming.

Blah, blah... blah.

No, but it is all tribulation, the great tribulation being the greatest of all.

LOL

But the saints are the ones who go through tribulation, as they are being persecuted always, sometimes more than other times, (Jesus tells us this), and because we still live in a fallen world and its effects. Even the wicked go through the effects of this falleness---the world the flesh and the devil---- but just judgment comes to the wicked, not the tribulation of persecution.

Again, I'll go with Paul.

Dispensationalism teaches that----not the Bible.

Wrong.

I have trouble with what men teach. That is why I check it against the Bible.

You do a terrible job.

1 Except that it isn't in Paul's epistles.

Yes, it is.

You are simply making one statement that Paul made---with no definitive teaching on any such thing anywhere else in his writings or those of any other apostle----to mean what you want it to mean.

Again, you make FALLACIOUS arguments. Christ spoke DIRECTLY to Paul on many occasions. Paul does NOT need any other apostle to "agree" with him.

I can only handle so much of your fallacious nonsense, so I'll ignore the rest of your post.

 

[Arial]

It certainly won't be the Church of God. Here in just three verses, we see it cannot be speaking of us.

Revelation 2:5-7
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Note all the "he that overcometh"s. We have overcome already....complete in Him.

It's the others who have to endure to the end.

He that overcometh is the church of God.
Those churches who John was writing to---those people were long gone before His second coming. We may be too, but through the first death---the death of the body.

Overcome and endure are not the same thing. The believer has overcome, as you say, and we also have to endure to the end. Either the end of our life on earth, or until His second coming---whichever comes first. Overcometh is not an imperative, it is a statement of fact. So I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

 

[Arial]

To Paul was revealed the body of Christ and it's future. So I don't really care dhat 2Esdras says.

Regardless of why Paul wrote it, it says what it says and it not hard to understand. It's plain and clear.

Hilarious that you use "footing" when they will be UP in the CLOUDS with Christ.

Paul says "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air"... I believe him over you any day.

Indeed... again "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air"

Blah, blah... blah.

LOL

Again, I'll go with Paul.

Wrong.

You do a terrible job.

Yes, it is.

Again, you make FALLACIOUS arguments. Christ spoke DIRECTLY to Paul on many occasions. Paul does NOT need any other apostle to "agree" with him.

I can only handle so much of your fallacious nonsense, so I'll ignore the rest of your post.

As you appear to be getting desperate in trying to support your position against what I say, and therefore resorting to childish retorts and insult, and my awareness that you will not stop replying to everything I say in this same vein, I won't bother to respond to this foolishness.

 

[Right Divider]

As you appear to be getting desperate in trying to support your position

Wrong again. I just stick to the clear teaching of scripture.

 

[Arial]

Just to make a couple of things clear.
Dispensationalism is not a doctrine. Neither is covenant theology. Both are interpretive tools out of which specific doctrines come. Willy Nilly theology is another prominent interpretive tool often used in our churches today that arrives at doctrines, some of them frankly mind boggling. Nevertheless the people adhering to them cannot be moved off them.

The truth is, no one knows with absolute certainty exactly what Revelation is presenting as to timeline, or whether it is a literal seven years, whether the church will be raptured before this or not. No matter how firmly we believe one thing or another on this is not what decides what is actually true, and this God alone knows. We will one day find out.

In the meantime we do see things in Revelation involving the spiritual warfare that is going on, not only "then" but also now. We see how this affects the earth and Christ's church. We see the tactics of the evil one against the church in the symbolism of the Dragon, the Beast and the False Prophet (the prostitute.) We have Jesus' council to believers to watch and pray and be ready. He could come at any moment and tells us to not be caught off guard at His appearing. The thrust of the OP is actually not to dispute the different views so much, but in light of the fact that no one really knows the day or the hour of HIs second coming and final judgment, are there things in Revelation that we should pay careful attention to. We see much of it happening within the corporal church and against Christ's church. Irregardless of whether this is the end or not. Those things exist now, and in fact have, since the resurrection. Now it is probably the most severe as to the activity of the prostitute, than ever before. And the church persecution of the Beast can be seen raising its ugly head within the US anyway, at a level that should frighten us. Are we spiritually grounded and prepared to withstand persecution in a way those alive have not experienced in the land of the free?

The things that are happening now affect the church now. Maybe Jesus will take the church out of the worst of it, maybe He won't. We are still here now. Are we prepared spiritually to handle whatever we will endure? Are we handling it? We certainly have opened the church doors and welcomed in the world. A great deal of Christ's church has fallen off its foundation, that is, the doctrines that support and feed and strengthen, the body of Christ that Jesus gave the apostles to lay. They are scarcely taught anymore, even scorned. What was solid has become shifting sand, and winds of doctrine. Even many of the shepherds are not grounded and simply scratch itching ears. Should we seek to reground ourselves, and should we be praying about these things for the church of our Lord?

Does anyone care?

 

[Idolater]

Colossians 3:1 " If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God."