The Christian Greek Horse of Isaiah 9:6

[Ben Masada]

Greetings again Ben Masada,

My starting point regarding forgiveness of sins is not obedience of God’s Law, but belief in God’s promises:

Okay, so believe in God's promises and break the Law to see where it will take you.

I am not sure that you can prove “obedience to God’s Law” as the basis for justification by quoting from the comments after the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, especially when he was targeting the strictest claimers to Law Keeping, the Pharisees Luke 16:13-18.

Break the Law and you will understand that obedience to the Law is the basis of justification.

I am not sure why you dismiss what I quoted. You seem to accept some portions of the NT, but reject others.

Your posts are too long as if there is no tomorrow and as if I don't have other posters to respond to.

Do you accept what Jesus stated concerning Psalm 8?

What did he state which is a reference to Psalm 8?

If you are looking for a Tanuch reference for resurrection, possibly you will accept the following as applicable to the Messiah at least.

Jesus could not have been the Messiah as an individual. If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save HIS PEOPLE; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God. (Exodus 4:22,23)

Psalm 16: 8-11 (KJV): 8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall restb in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

This above has nothing to do with bodily resurrection.

If you are looking for a Tanuch reference for the future rest under the Messiah, possibly you will also accept the following, especially if you consider all of Isaiah 11: Isaiah 11: 9-10 (KJV): 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

This is a reference to the Jewish New World Order aka the New Covenant established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. (Jeremiah 31:31)

 

[Ben Masada]

Greetings again Ben Masada,Matthew 11: 25-30 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

I know the Father aka HaShem and the son aka Israel. (Exodus 4:22,23)Jesus was son of God too but as part of the People of Israel; and only for 33 years of his life.

The rest that Jesus provides is firstly very personal, a removal of sins past, a comfort from the stress and turmoil and anxieties of life, and finally the eternal rest when our mortal bodies or resurrected bodies will be changed into immortal bodies at the return of Jesus and we will enter into the 1000 years of rest when he reigns upon the earth for the 1000 years, the 7th Millennium of rest prefigured by the Sabbath. I have quoted the above from Matthew in greater detail, as it connects what Jesus says to his claim that he is the Son of Man, the son of Adam spoken of in Psalm 8. He is the one in and through whom God's purpose in creation will be fulfilled, refer also Hebrews 2 regarding Psalm 8.

And you cannot provide absolutely a single evidence for every thing you have said above. The whole point is from Hellenistic literature aka the NT.

Both these elements are spoken of by Paul in Hebrews 4. Hebrews 4: 7-11 (KJV): 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus (mg: Joshua) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest (a keeping of the Sabbath) to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

It is promotion of Replacement Theology to replace a personage in the Tanach with another in the NT. Mind you that Replacement Theology is akin to vandalism of a religion by another.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ben Masada,

I appreciate your patience. You are the first contact that I have had with someone of the Jewish faith. I assume that there are many Jewish schools of thought and I have been surprised at some of your views from the Tanach. Also I am not representative of most on this forum as I believe in One God the Father, and that Jesus is the Son of God, and also I do not believe in heaven going at death, but in resurrection and inheritance of the Kingdom of God on the earth at Jesus’ return.

Your posts are too long as if there is no tomorrow and as if I don't have other posters to respond to.

I will respond to your posts, but possibly in a way that will allow you to disengage, as we have already stated our differences, and made little progress.

Okay, so believe in God's promises and break the Law to see where it will take you.
Break the Law and you will understand that obedience to the Law is the basis of justification.

True faith in the full and correct gospel will motivate the believer to fulfilling God’s will and way of life. Abraham is an example, where he is firstly justified by faith, then grows strong in faith when told of the anticipated birth of Isaac, and then he is commended for his willingness to offer Isaac when asked by God. If you concentrate on Law obedience, then there is no true, consistent motivating force, and although you suggest this may be Hellenistic, Romans 7 shows the conflict that we all experience with Law and failure to keep Law.

And you cannot provide absolutely a single evidence for every thing you have said above. The whole point is from Hellenistic literature aka the NT.

I am very interested in the OT as the source of the NT, and view the promises to Abraham as the true basis for the NT promises.

It is promotion of Replacement Theology to replace a personage in the Tanach with another in the NT. Mind you that Replacement Theology is akin to vandalism of a religion by another.

I have heard the expression “Replacement Theology” used where “Israel” in OT prophecy is replaced by the “Church” and I reject this as I look for the restoration of a converted Israel when their Messiah appears.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[beameup]

Abraham walked by sight aka understanding of HaShem's instructions because he trusted the Lord. There is a big difference between faith and trust.

Then why does it say in Genesis 15:6 that Abram "believed God"
(faith) and that counted as righteousness before God?

 

[beameup]

What facts? Fictitious facts!

Yes, of course, you consider your Takakh to be "fictitious".

 

[Ben Masada]

10 For the Lord has poured out on you The spirit of deep sleep, And has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, namely, the seers.

I see this as a reference to the end of the prophetic system in Israel which happened soon after the return of the Jews from Babylon by occasion of the establishment of the Jewish New World Order aka the New Covenant. (Jeremiah 31:31)

 

[Ben Masada]

Greetings again Ben Masada,

I appreciate your patience. You are the first contact that I have had with someone of the Jewish faith. I assume that there are many Jewish schools of thought and I have been surprised at some of your views from the Tanach. Also I am not representative of most on this forum as I believe in One God the Father, and that Jesus is the Son of God, and also I do not believe in heaven going at death, but in resurrection and inheritance of the Kingdom of God on the earth at Jesus’ return.

I am impressed by your absolute sense of Monotheism but, as Jesus being son of God, yes he is but as part of Israel aka the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. At death, we all go to Sheol not to Heaven. Regarding resurrection, God's Word is quite clear that once dead, no one will ever return. Read II Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; Psalm 49:12,20; etc.

I will respond to your posts, but possibly in a way that will allow you to disengage, as we have already stated our differences, and made little progress.

Not too good as it becomes an exercise on futility.

True faith in the full and correct gospel will motivate the believer to fulfilling God’s will and way of life.

The full and correct gospel was the gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach. The NT Jesus never even dreamed it would ever rise.

Abraham is an example, where he is firstly justified by faith, then grows strong in faith when told of the anticipated birth of Isaac, and then he is commended for his willingness to offer Isaac when asked by God.

Abraham was not justified by faith but as a result of his trust in God's Word. Faith without obedience of the Law is akin to a body without the breath of life aka dead.James 2:26

If you concentrate on Law obedience, then there is no true, consistent motivating force, and although you suggest this may be Hellenistic, Romans 7 shows the conflict that we all experience with Law and failure to keep Law.

The true Jewish consistency and motivation are based on the obedience of God's Law which is what substantiate our Faith. Failure to obey the Law would be no different from failing Jesus' warning to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

I am very interested in the OT as the source of the NT, and view the promises to Abraham as the true basis for the NT promises.

Sorry my friend, but the Tanach is not the source for the NT. Hellenism is. Now, as the promises to Abraham are concerned, the opposite is rather true that Paul went against all of them, especially the circumcision. (Acts 21:21)

I have heard the expression “Replacement Theology” used where “Israel” in OT prophecy is replaced by the “Church” and I reject this as I look for the restoration of a converted Israel when their Messiah appears.

Conversion of Israel to what, to the religion of Paul? That would be akin to persuading Israel to take his hand into the mouth of a crocodile; no offense meant.

 

[Ben Masada]

Then why does it say in Genesis 15:6 that Abram "believed God"
(faith) and that counted as righteousness before God?

The JPS Jewish translation of that text from the Hebrew states that, "And because Abraham put his trust in the Lord,he reckoned it to his merit." You are using a Christian translation that's why. I prefer the Jewish one, if you ask me.

 

[Ben Masada]

Yes, of course, you consider your Takakh to be "fictitious".

You say so probably because you must consider the Word of God fictitious. Pity!

 

[beameup]

The JPS Jewish translation of that text from the Hebrew states that, "And because Abraham put his trust in the Lord,he reckoned it to his merit." You are using a Christian translation that's why. I prefer the Jewish one, if you ask me.

That is contrary to the Septuagint.
Of course, considering that you consider that Ezra was the "author" of the TORAH, freely tampering with it, you have rendered your own scriptures uninspired and unreliable.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ben Masada,

At death, we all go to Sheol not to Heaven. Regarding resurrection, God's Word is quite clear that once dead, no one will ever return.

I am interested in what you expect when you go to Sheol, and is this the final destination. Do both the righteous and the wicked go to the same area in Sheol? How do you understand such Scripture as:
Psalm 6:5 (KJV): For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave (sheol) who shall give thee thanks?

My own understanding is that Adam was sentenced to return to the dust Genesis 3:19, and that apart from a resurrection, each of us will perish. Jesus is the only one to not see corruption, because he did not sin and thus the sentence on Adam and his descendants was reversed in him. The grave could not hold him because of his sinlessness and because of God the Father’s love for His Son Psalm 16:8-11.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Ben Masada]

That is contrary to the Septuagint.
Of course, considering that you consider that Ezra was the "author" of the TORAH, freely tampering with it, you have rendered your own scriptures uninspired and unreliable.

The expression "tempered with" was valid only after the Canon was officially decreed. When it was still in the process, there was no infringing with the Word of God to put together all existing fragments to organize the Scriptures. The same happened with the NT in the 4th Century by the Fathers of the Church. You cannot even dream how much they had to add and to reject in order to satisfy Christian preconceived notions.

 

[Ben Masada]

Greetings again Ben Masada,

1 - I am interested in what you expect when you go to Sheol, and is this the final destination.

2 - Do both the righteous and the wicked go to the same area in Sheol?

3 - How do you understand such Scripture as: Psalm 6:5 (KJV): For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave (sheol) who shall give thee thanks?

4 - My own understanding is that Adam was sentenced to return to the dust Genesis 3:19, and that apart from a resurrection, each of us will perish.

5 - Jesus is the only one to not see corruption, because he did not sin and thus the sentence on Adam and his descendants was reversed in him.

6 - The grave could not hold him because of his sinlessness and because of God the Father’s love for His Son Psalm 16:8-11.

1 - I expect absolute freedom from all troubles in the world of the living. And yes, Sheol is the final solution; the only thing eternal about man.

2 - Since Sheol is the grave, both, the righteous and the wicked go to the same place. Sorry to rain on your parade.

3 - I understand from Psalm 6:5 which is 6:6 in the JPS, that there will be no judgment in the afterlife because our God is not a God of the dead but of the living only. The Lord has nothing to do with the dead.

4 - So, each one of us has already perished in Sheol because, the Word of God can't be more clear that, once dead no one will ever return from the grave. In other words, there will be no bodily resurrection. (II Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; Psalm 49:12,20)

5 - That's Pauline verbal juggling that makes no sense. Jesus was a sinner just like any one of us because, according to Ecclesiastes 7:20 "There has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned." Jesus was a man upon earth for 33 years of his life. Besides, if you read Matthew 23:13-33 Jesus broke the Golden Rule 15 times only in that text. The Golden Rule states that we are not to do unto others what we would not like they did unto ourselves. I am sure Jesus would not have liked to be addressed to as a hypocrite and brood of vipers. That's what he did to the Jewish authorities if we are to believe that text of Matthew. And the Golden Rule covers the whole second part of the Decalogue. Serious transgressions right there, my friend!

6 - Indeed, I do not deny that Jesus was son of God but as part of Israel whom the Lord said, "Israel is My Son..." (Exodus 4:22,23)

 

[beameup]

The expression "tempered with" was valid only after the Canon was officially decreed. When it was still in the process, there was no infringing with the Word of God to put together all existing fragments to organize the Scriptures. The same happened with the NT in the 4th Century by the Fathers of the Church. You cannot even dream how much they had to add and to reject in order to satisfy Christian preconceived notions.

"your god", the one that the "Reformed" have created, is incapable of putting together a reliable definitive and HOLY Tanakh. This "Reformed theology" flies in the face of traditional Judaism (pre-70 AD) and the stringent practices of the scribes prior to the destruction of Judaism in 70 AD.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ben Masada,

1 - I expect absolute freedom from all troubles in the world of the living. And yes, Sheol is the final solution; the only thing eternal about man.

2 - Since Sheol is the grave, both, the righteous and the wicked go to the same place. Sorry to rain on your parade.

I cannot see how you reconcile the above two. I find no reference to Sheol being a place to look forward to, and you seem to have some parallel idea to the immortal soul of pagan beliefs or Greek philosophy. The grave (Sheol) is where our bodies disintegrate into dust. I believe that Jesus will resurrect us from the dust at his return and establish his glorious kingdom upon this earth for 1000 years, yes certainly a time of refreshment:
Daniel 12:2-3 (KJV): 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Moreover David said his soul would not ultimately be left in Sheol:
Psalm 16:8-11 (KJV): 8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell(Sheol); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Ben Masada]

"your god", the one that the "Reformed" have created, is incapable of putting together a reliable definitive and HOLY Tanakh. This "Reformed theology" flies in the face of traditional Judaism (pre-70 AD) and the stringent practices of the scribes prior to the destruction of Judaism in 70 AD.

No, but the God of Israel is my God. That's the same Who declared, "Israel is My
Son..." (Exodus 4:22,23) There is no other.

 

[Ben Masada]

Greetings again Ben Masada,

1 - I cannot see how you reconcile the above two. I find no reference to Sheol being a place to look forward to, and you seem to have some parallel idea to the immortal soul of pagan beliefs or Greek philosophy.

1a - We don't refer to Sheol as a place to look forward to; what we look forward to is a long life at least up to 120 bezrat HaShem!

2 - The grave (Sheol) is where our bodies disintegrate into dust.

2a - Yes, just according to God's Word in Ecclesiastes 12:7.

3 - I believe that Jesus will resurrect us from the dust at his return and establish his glorious kingdom upon this earth for 1000 years, yes certainly a time of refreshment:

3a - Jesus would not contradict the Word of God about bodily resurrection. Read II Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; Psalm 49:12,20; etc.

4 - Daniel 12:2-3: And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4a - To understand Daniel 12:2,3, you must read Isaiah 53:8,9. When Jews are forced into exile, it is as if they have been cut off from the Land of the living and, graves have been assigned to them among the nations. At the end of the exile, the Lord opens up those graves and bring them back into the Land of Israel. (Ezekiel 37:12) Those who respond to the call and make Aliyah are compared with returning to everlasting life which here is an euphemism for life in Israel. Those who choose to remain in exile are referred to as remaining in everlasting contempt.

5 - Acts 3:19-21:Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

5a - The only method to get our sins blotted out of ourselves is through repentance and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) Hence, Jesus warning that we ought to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

6 - Moreover David said his soul would not ultimately be left in Sheol: Psalm 16:8-11:I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell(Sheol); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

6a - That Psalm of David, he wrote just before getting into battle with the enemy and he expressed his trust in the Lord that He would preserve him from dying in battle. It had nothing to do with returning from the grave if you read II Samuel 12:23. David himself said that no one will return from Sheol.

 

[Wick Stick]

Where are you getting this crap from, Ben?

If you just look at the historical record - it isn't in favor of the Christian interpretation. But it also isn't this awful mish-mash you've delivered up to us.

This part of Isaiah is written against the backdrop of the historical events recorded in 2Kings 16:5:

Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him.

This all happens 65 year before Samaria is taken captive (Isa 7:8). The Israelite king confederates himself to the Syrian king, and attacks Judah. The prophecy Isaiah gives Ahaz, is that the Assyrian will lay waste Samaria, and destroy Ephraim, thereby shattering the alliance and stopping the war against him.

The prophecy is against the leaders of Israel, and particularly the capital city of Samaria. Isaiah further councils Ahaz against allying against the Assyrians. Isaiah leads a band of refugees, who return to the land and to God. These are the ones who see great light; not the gentiles.

You do know that the Assyrians only carried away Samaria, right? Not the entirety of 10+ tribes. We have Sargon's inscriptions to this day to tell us so:

The inhabitants of Samaria/Samerina, who agreed [and plotted] with a king [hostile to] me, not to do service and not to bring tribute [to Ashshur] and who did battle, I fought against them with the power of the great gods, my lords. I counted as spoil 27,280 people, together with their chariots, and gods, in which they trusted. I formed a unit with 200 of [their] chariots for my royal force. I settled the rest of them in the midst of Assyria. I repopulated Samaria/Samerina more than before. I brought into it people from countries conquered by my hands. I appointed my eunuch as governor over them. And I counted them as Assyrians. (Nimrud Prisms, COS 2.118D, pp. 295–296)

This also agrees with Isaiah 9, where the prophecy is only against the leaders of Israel, who are keeping the people in the dark (by suppressing worship of Yahweh). Upon their removal, light shines again.

 

[Ben Masada]

Where are you getting this crap from, Ben?

If you just look at the historical record - it isn't in favor of the Christian interpretation. But it also isn't this awful mish-mash you've delivered up to us.

This part of Isaiah is written against the backdrop of the historical events recorded in 2Kings 16:5:

Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him.

This all happens 65 year before Samaria is taken captive (Isa 7:8). The Israelite king confederates himself to the Syrian king, and attacks Judah. The prophecy Isaiah gives Ahaz, is that the Assyrian will lay waste Samaria, and destroy Ephraim, thereby shattering the alliance and stopping the war against him.

The prophecy is against the leaders of Israel, and particularly the capital city of Samaria. Isaiah further councils Ahaz against allying against the Assyrians. Isaiah leads a band of refugees, who return to the land and to God. These are the ones who see great light; not the gentiles.

You do know that the Assyrians only carried away Samaria, right? Not the entirety of 10+ tribes. We have Sargon's inscriptions to this day to tell us so:

This also agrees with Isaiah 9, where the prophecy is only against the leaders of Israel, who are keeping the people in the dark (by suppressing worship of Yahweh). Upon their removal, light shines again.

All references to Samaria was a reference to the whole Ten Tribes of Israel as it was the capital of the kingdom of Israel aka the Ten Tribes. Hence the reference to the Galilee of the Gentiles which were the Gentiles sent by Assyria to replace the population of the Ten Tribes transferred to Assyria. For the kingdom of the South aka Judah, the capital was Jerusalem. So, any reference to Jerusalem was a reference to the kingdom of Judah.

 

[Ben Masada]

This also agrees with Isaiah 9, where the prophecy is only against the leaders of Israel, who are keeping the people in the dark (by suppressing worship of Yahweh). Upon their removal, light shines again.

Sorry, but your interpretation above makes no sense to me. The truth is that, "The people that walked in darkness, aka the Gentiles, have seen a brilliant light aka the Jews returning from exile through the Galilee of the Gentiles.(Isaiah 9:1) Jesus also understood that text to be so when he was delivering his Sermon of the Mount unto a multitude of Jews and said to them, "You are the light of the world." (Matthew 5:14) I think Jesus knew a little better than you.