The Book of Revelation: Mystery Or Profitable?

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
How one sees that depends entirely upon their interpretation and their interpretation depends entirely on what premise or bias they begin with. I offered a different view and interpretation than yours.
The concept you need to look further into is referred to as "first principles".

The fact is that what you've said here is mostly correct except that those who do theology properly don't permit this situation to persist all the way down to their most foundational presuppositions. In other words, our premises and biases are based on something more substantial than mere personal opinion or a desire to maintain a particular belief system. You have to build you doctrine on a solid foundation that is far more substantial than blind belief and personal opinions.

Since I was a child, I have been passionately interested in answering the question, "Why do 'they' believe what they believe?". My family drove past a dozen or more churches on the way to the church we attended and I was constantly asking things like, "What do they believe that's different than what we believe?". I remember once that I naively told my mom that, "We sure are lucky that we found the right church to go to!". I bet I wasn't even ten years old when I said that. The point being, that I have literally spent my entire life paying attention not only to what various Christians believe but why they believe it and I have never been so married to a particular belief that I was unwilling to drop it in order to pick up a doctrine that I felt was better supported by the plain reading of scripture and sound reason. My loyalty has always been to the truth, not to a denomination, group or person. I have, over the years, held to dozens and dozens of doctrines that I no longer hold to. I was literally the poster child for being blown about by every wind of doctrine! The thing I'm most embarrassed about having ever given any credence to is a toss up between charismatic "speaking in tongues" (complete insanity) and the World Wide Church of God (kookoo bird insanity on the verge of being a cult). Needless to say, neither of those lasted long because while they might have an initial appeal, neither can really stand up to the sort of honest scrutiny that I was willing to pay attention to and permit to persuade my mind.

In fact, the only thing that ever stuck for longer than a few years was the system of theology that I hold to today and that I have held to now for more than two decades (almost three actually - wow!). The reason it has such sticking power is precisely because it is NOT an interpretation of the bible that "depends entirely on what premise or bias they begin with", as you put it, with the exception, of course, of a handful of first principles, like the fact that God exists; that God is living, personal, righteous, loving and just; that the bible is literally true and as such it should be taken to mean what it seems to mean whenever possible, and some other similar type things. And, indeed, as a write this I realize that even most of those things are logically defensible positions that are not simply presupposed and believed in an a priori manner.

So far as I am aware, and I wrote all the above to lend credence to the fact that I am pretty well aware of most flavors of Christianity, there isn't any other systematic theology that even comes close to being as objectively true as does Acts 9 Dispensational Open Theism. There isn't any of it that stands as mere simple blind belief or personal opinion. Those who hold to it are not the sort that go for blind belief and personal opinion. They are the sort that are persuaded by reason and the PLAIN reading of scripture and even then, they aren't so convinced as to think they can't be shown where they've made an error. In fact, that was Bob Enyart's number one question for God. He repeatedly stated that if he could ask just one question and get a straight audible answer from God Himself, he would ask, "What teachings do I have wrong?". The pursuit of the objective truth is genuinely the hallmark of this doctrinal system as well as those who hold to it.

Clete
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
OK, please name the other of the two you know of for the type of eternal salvation.

And that eternal life salvation is the one I would like a list of the gospels for mankind.
I think this one is referring to the end day judgment where people will be judged on their "deeds".

Romans 2:5-7
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
The concept you need to look further into is referred to as "first principles".

The fact is that what you've said here is mostly correct except that those who do theology properly don't permit this situation to persist all the way down to their most foundational presuppositions. In other words, our premises and biases are based on something more substantial than mere personal opinion or a desire to maintain a particular belief system. You have to build you doctrine on a solid foundation that is far more substantial than blind belief and personal opinions.

Since I was a child, I have been passionately interested in answering the question, "Why do 'they' believe what they believe?". My family drove past a dozen or more churches on the way to the church we attended and I was constantly asking things like, "What do they believe that's different than what we believe?". I remember once that I naively told my mom that, "We sure are lucky that we found the right church to go to!". I bet I wasn't even ten years old when I said that. The point being, that I have literally spent my entire life paying attention not only to what various Christians believe but why they believe it and I have never been so married to a particular belief that I was unwilling to drop it in order to pick up a doctrine that I felt was better supported by the plain reading of scripture and sound reason. My loyalty has always been to the truth, not to a denomination, group or person. I have, over the years, held to dozens and dozens of doctrines that I no longer hold to. I was literally the poster child for being blown about by every wind of doctrine! The thing I'm most embarrassed about having ever given any credence to is a toss up between charismatic "speaking in tongues" (complete insanity) and the World Wide Church of God (kookoo bird insanity on the verge of being a cult). Needless to say, neither of those lasted long because while they might have an initial appeal, neither can really stand up to the sort of honest scrutiny that I was willing to pay attention to and permit to persuade my mind.

In fact, the only thing that ever stuck for longer than a few years was the system of theology that I hold to today and that I have held to now for more than two decades (almost three actually - wow!). The reason it has such sticking power is precisely because it is NOT an interpretation of the bible that "depends entirely on what premise or bias they begin with", as you put it, with the exception, of course, of a handful of first principles, like the fact that God exists; that God is living, personal, righteous, loving and just; that the bible is literally true and as such it should be taken to mean what it seems to mean whenever possible, and some other similar type things. And, indeed, as a write this I realize that even most of those things are logically defensible positions that are not simply presupposed and believed in an a priori manner.

So far as I am aware, and I wrote all the above to lend credence to the fact that I am pretty well aware of most flavors of Christianity, there isn't any other systematic theology that even comes close to being as objectively true as does Acts 9 Dispensational Open Theism. There isn't any of it that stands as mere simple blind belief or personal opinion. Those who hold to it are not the sort that go for blind belief and personal opinion. They are the sort that are persuaded by reason and the PLAIN reading of scripture and even then, they aren't so convinced as to think they can't be shown where they've made an error. In fact, that was Bob Enyart's number one question for God. He repeatedly stated that if he could ask just one question and get a straight audible answer from God Himself, he would ask, "What teachings do I have wrong?". The pursuit of the objective truth is genuinely the hallmark of this doctrinal system as well as those who hold to it.

Clete
How do I nominate this for Post of the Day? JR, you do it for me, please.

Beautiful, simply beautiful.
 
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Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
How could God owe them if that's what God required of them?
Required for eternal salvation or a demonstration of eternal salvation?


Works don't produce faith.
But faith produces works.
Works reveals (demonstrates) your faith is a real thing that folks can see.
If works are absent then how does one know faith is a real thing?

To demonstrate the point we can substitute other words in place of works and faith.

Kind gestures can't produce love.​
Kind gestures can't replace love.​
Kind gestures demonstrate your love is real.​
If kind gestures are absent then how does one know love is real?​
Obedience can't produce loyalty.​
Obedience can't replace loyalty.​
Obedience demonstrates your loyalty is real.​
Obedience is necessary to reveal your loyalty is real.​
Effect doesn't produce cause.​
Effect doesn't replace cause.​
Effect demonstrates that the cause is real.​
Effect is necessary to reveal the cause is real.​


Cause (God) is made known because effects demonstrate that the cause (God) really does exist.
Loyalty is made known because obedience demonstrates loyalty really does exist.
Love is made known because kind gestures demonstrate love really does exist.
Faith is made known because works demonstrate faith really does exist.


And thus James could say one can't know faith really exists without works to reveal it does really exist ("faith without works is dead" & "I'll show my faith by my works") without violating Paul's message that it is not works that merit eternal salvation.
Because if one is only doing works to merit something in return (tit for tat) then their works are not a demonstration of real faith but of a wage owed them.
One that has a real living faith is one that treats others justly, fairly, and lovingly without expecting anything in return from them (no wage owed you for your works) because that is what a true image of God does.
 

Arial

Active member
People have to interpret everything they see, read, hear, feel. Reading the Bible is no different. People interpret things differently. Therefore, so many interpretations.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
The concept you need to look further into is referred to as "first principles".

The fact is that what you've said here is mostly correct except that those who do theology properly don't permit this situation to persist all the way down to their most foundational presuppositions. In other words, our premises and biases are based on something more substantial than mere personal opinion or a desire to maintain a particular belief system. You have to build you doctrine on a solid foundation that is far more substantial than blind belief and personal opinions.

Since I was a child, I have been passionately interested in answering the question, "Why do 'they' believe what they believe?". My family drove past a dozen or more churches on the way to the church we attended and I was constantly asking things like, "What do they believe that's different than what we believe?". I remember once that I naively told my mom that, "We sure are lucky that we found the right church to go to!". I bet I wasn't even ten years old when I said that. The point being, that I have literally spent my entire life paying attention not only to what various Christians believe but why they believe it and I have never been so married to a particular belief that I was unwilling to drop it in order to pick up a doctrine that I felt was better supported by the plain reading of scripture and sound reason. My loyalty has always been to the truth, not to a denomination, group or person. I have, over the years, held to dozens and dozens of doctrines that I no longer hold to. I was literally the poster child for being blown about by every wind of doctrine! The thing I'm most embarrassed about having ever given any credence to is a toss up between charismatic "speaking in tongues" (complete insanity) and the World Wide Church of God (kookoo bird insanity on the verge of being a cult). Needless to say, neither of those lasted long because while they might have an initial appeal, neither can really stand up to the sort of honest scrutiny that I was willing to pay attention to and permit to persuade my mind.

In fact, the only thing that ever stuck for longer than a few years was the system of theology that I hold to today and that I have held to now for more than two decades (almost three actually - wow!). The reason it has such sticking power is precisely because it is NOT an interpretation of the bible that "depends entirely on what premise or bias they begin with", as you put it, with the exception, of course, of a handful of first principles, like the fact that God exists; that God is living, personal, righteous, loving and just; that the bible is literally true and as such it should be taken to mean what it seems to mean whenever possible, and some other similar type things. And, indeed, as a write this I realize that even most of those things are logically defensible positions that are not simply presupposed and believed in an a priori manner.

So far as I am aware, and I wrote all the above to lend credence to the fact that I am pretty well aware of most flavors of Christianity, there isn't any other systematic theology that even comes close to being as objectively true as does Acts 9 Dispensational Open Theism. There isn't any of it that stands as mere simple blind belief or personal opinion. Those who hold to it are not the sort that go for blind belief and personal opinion. They are the sort that are persuaded by reason and the PLAIN reading of scripture and even then, they aren't so convinced as to think they can't be shown where they've made an error. In fact, that was Bob Enyart's number one question for God. He repeatedly stated that if he could ask just one question and get a straight audible answer from God Himself, he would ask, "What teachings do I have wrong?". The pursuit of the objective truth is genuinely the hallmark of this doctrinal system as well as those who hold to it.

Clete
To sum it all up ......

Proverbs 18:17 ESV
(17) The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.


The only part of your post I would take slight exception to is your phrase: "the plain meaning of scripture".
The reason being is that people had heard or read scripture for centuries and yet even the disciples closest to Jesus hadn't figured out what was taking place until after it happened and they had hindsight ....... "Ahh haa, so THAT's what it was saying!"
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
To sum it all up ......

Proverbs 18:17 ESV
(17) The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.


The only part of your post I would take slight exception to is your phrase: "the plain meaning of scripture".
The reason being is that people had heard or read scripture for centuries and yet even the disciples closest to Jesus hadn't figured out what was taking place until after it happened and they had hindsight ....... "Ahh haa, so THAT's what it was saying!"
Hmmm... I would sum up his post as being the path a believer takes as he matures in the Lord. I could really relate, and I'm betting you could too. I started out being raised as a Catholic, and seeing a lot, but basically nothing about the Bible. I've been exposed and listened to charismatics, home churches, debated with Calvinists (AMR) was my favorite. Anyway, it's an ongoing search that leads to more and more things making sense. And when they click, they click...then they're modified when you read another verse....supported by another.

It's really wonderful to love the Lord, and have a Bible and other believers to converse with.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
People have to interpret everything they see, read, hear, feel. Reading the Bible is no different. People interpret things differently. Therefore, so many interpretations.
So many interpretations, but only one Book.
Back up what you think with other verses.
Dig deeper because we know the truth is in there.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Hmmm... I would sum up his post as being the path a believer takes as he matures in the Lord. I could really relate, and I'm betting you could too. I started out being raised as a Catholic, and seeing a lot, but basically nothing about the Bible. I've been exposed and listened to charismatics, home churches, debated with Calvinists (AMR) was my favorite. Anyway, it's an ongoing search that leads to more and more things making sense. And when they click, they click...then they're modified when you read another verse....supported by another.

It's really wonderful to love the Lord, and have a Bible and other believers to converse with.
Yep, I can relate.
What seems to be the right understanding today may not be what seems to be the right understanding tomorrow.
And whatever one's understanding was yesterday, I'm sure it was expressed with the same zeal and conviction as their new understanding.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Yep, I can relate.
What seems to be the right understanding today may not be what seems to be the right understanding tomorrow.
And whatever one's understanding was yesterday, I'm sure it was expressed with the same zeal and conviction as their new understanding.
Which is why we never cease reading and learning.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
People have to interpret everything they see, read, hear, feel. Reading the Bible is no different. People interpret things differently. Therefore, so many interpretations.
True.
And more information keeps coming to help with those interpretations.

Just imagine all the wealth of info revealed through the Dead Sea Scroll that had been stored for centuries and written in the languages of that day.
Not only were tons of fragments of the OT found, but commentaries and other writings as well that shed much light on what the symbolism, idioms, and imagery meant to the people during that day.
In fact there were some extra Psalms found within the scrolls of the OT that we don't even have in our bibles today.
And to this day they have yet to piece many of the fragments together to reveal even more.
And there could be more found in other caves in the future.
 

Arial

Active member
@Clete Please read all the way through before responding. There is a reason I ask this of you.
Way back in 1984 I first came to Christ. In the beginning, like a child trusts a parent, and having not yet learned much of God or Christ or theology, just beginning my own first journey through the Bible, word by word starting with Gen 1:1, I believed what I was told and heard. I traveled through mostly charismatic churches, believed the teachings on Revelation that were dispensationalist that I gleaned from Christian writings. And I could even see what they were saying for myself in Revelation itself, though more questions arose than were answered. I gave up on trying to understand it. I knew the crucial point. Jesus wins and all things are restored and I would be with Him forever. I believed too in the Rapture and figured one way or the other, it wasn't something I would go through. (I am not denouncing the rapture here, just telling my path. I intend to start a thread on it and it can be discussed there. Not here please.)

After twenty some years and many trips through the totality of scripture, and times of focus on one thing or another, there were things that I could see in the word that in my mind did not jive with what I was hearing. From the pulpits it seemed to be all about what God has done for us in the here and now. Worship was no more than a stirring of emotions and feelings. It was all about us and God as the one with the handouts. I began to yearn for something as a deer pants for water, and I could not name what that something was except to cry out in my mind one Sunday morning, coming down my stairs, on my way to church "I want more of God. I want to hear about God."

It was shortly after this that my brother who had just begun this same new step in his growth, brought me a little book called "Truths That Transform."
"It will change your life," he said. I snorted with derision and replied, "There is no such book." (Outside the Bible.) But my thoughts were on all the Christian books that promise ways to change your life, your financial situation, get your prayers answered, break bad habits, be a better person etc. that are no more than self help books from a Christian perspective. My brother just smiled. When he left I opened the book. Before I had finished the first paragraph, I was pleasantly astonished. It was actually about God---not us---but God. And there was nothing in it from beginning to end but an exposition of God and the Lord Jesus Christ, redemption, atonement, grace. And thus began my introduction to and exploration of Reformed theology, the next leg of my journey to growing in the knowledge and love and worship of God.

What I found in Reformed theology was that it was consistently and always about God and the things of God. It was consistent with itself, unfolding from beginning to end in a steady progression of expound on God as it expounded on the scriptures, book by book. I checked everything against scripture to see if there was a valid reason for saying whatever was said. I pondered and studied and pondered some more. Rather than leaving hanging things that can seem contradictory, it traced through clear scriptures on the same subject to make sense of the paradox. ALways it used the Bible to interpret the Bible. It never wavered or flagged off course to leave room for fallacies or confusion to enter in. It was solid as a rock. Following that interpretation of scripture, the wolves in sheeps clothing are held at bay. And it looks deeply and deeper still into those vast and glorious ideas and words that become only surface agreements. The atonement. Justification. Propitiation. Grace. The cross. And everything else as I grew and grew and grew. And yes I was gaining knowledge, but this knowledge is like a kaleidoscope in my heart. It is firm ground for me that grows my actual trust in God in all things, and this growing and learning will never stop for His word is living, and He gives us what we need.

So my point in saying all this is that my saying it, no matter how true it is for me, will convince no one. Sway no one. No one will say, "OH well then, that is the way I must go." And it shouldn't. It is proof of something to no one but me. It is the same with your story. As long as a person has the faith necessary and in the things of that faith necessary for salvation, for union with Christ, each individual takes their own individual journey, and it is God who goes before them, God who holds them up when they stumble, God who directs their footsteps. We don't all go through the same exact processes in this life. And those things that do not affect salvation, are not things we need to fight over, or proclaim that our way is the only way, and the absolute truth. And we should never, never, tamper with another's faith by ridiculing their beliefs, just because of a difference in how they see those things that do not pertain to salvation. Discuss them. Fine and good. But treat them with contempt for believing differently----never. When we do that it is really God we are messing with. He is the one doing a work in each believer.

People think differently. Each person is as individual as each snowflake is, and I'm guessing much more complex. And God made each snowflake and He made each person. He takes us each on our own personal journey. It is an intensely personal relationship.
 
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Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
To sum it all up ......

Proverbs 18:17 ESV
(17) The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.


The only part of your post I would take slight exception to is your phrase: "the plain meaning of scripture".
The reason being is that people had heard or read scripture for centuries and yet even the disciples closest to Jesus hadn't figured out what was taking place until after it happened and they had hindsight ....... "Ahh haa, so THAT's what it was saying!"
This is why the two have to go together. It is sound reason AND the plain reading of scripture. The point is simply that the bible trumps doctrine, not the other way around.

Figurative language and symbols are used throughout the scripture but an acknowledgment of that obvious fact does not tacitly give someone the right to turn any passage they want into an allegory, right? There has to be a reason to do so and the more objective that reason the better. In other words, bringing a doctrine to a passage in an a priori way and then making that passage fit by turning it into symbolism or allegory means that the bible takes a back seat to your doctrine. Thus, the reason you take something to be symbolic or figurative must itself be both rational and biblical and not strictly doctrinal. Otherwise, you end up like the Catholics and Calvinists, who render any passage they want in an manner that is necessary to fit their doctrine and lose the ability to be persuaded by God's word at all.

Clete
 

Arial

Active member
Identifying Revelation by Genre

We can find great help and grounding and direction in interpreting Revelation by identifying what type of literature (genre) it is. The book of Revelation shares many characteristics of OT apocalyptic (revelation) literature. John identifies it several times as prophecy (Rev 1:3; 19:10; 22:7,10,18,19). Identifying this book as apocalyptic prophecy tells us whether to interpret the book symbolically or literally. OT apocalyptic prophecy uses highly figurative and symbolic language, much of it made direct reference to in Revelation.

This is also supported by the beginning words of the book. John tells us that the book is largely symbolic with the use of the word semaino, translated signified in John 1:1. The cognate noun form of this verb is semaino, translated sign identifying visible symbols in Rev 12:1,3; 15:1, as well as the counterfeit miracles performed by the false prophet in 13:13,14; 16:14; 19:20. Also Rev 1:1 is an allusion to Dan 2:28,29,45 is confirmation that the word means symbolize in John's writings in Revelation. There is the use of the same word in in Dan 2:45 of the Septuagint to describe the symbolic vision of Nebuchadnezzar. And John deliberately uses the Daniel's language of "making known" to indicate that what God has been showing him is also mostly symbolic.

Considering this the dictum of the popular approach to Rev (interpret literally unless you are forced to interpret symbolically) must be turned on its head. Interpret symbolically unless you are forced to interpret literally. Expect that the main means of divine revelation in this book is symbolic.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Identifying Revelation by Genre

We can find great help and grounding and direction in interpreting Revelation by identifying what type of literature (genre) it is. The book of Revelation shares many characteristics of OT apocalyptic (revelation) literature. John identifies it several times as prophecy (Rev 1:3; 19:10; 22:7,10,18,19). Identifying this book as apocalyptic prophecy tells us whether to interpret the book symbolically or literally. OT apocalyptic prophecy uses highly figurative and symbolic language, much of it made direct reference to in Revelation.
It's NOT an either or situation... that is a false dichotomy.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Considering this the dictum of the popular approach to Rev (interpret literally unless you are forced to interpret symbolically) must be turned on its head. Interpret symbolically unless you are forced to interpret literally. Expect that the main means of divine revelation in this book is symbolic.
Naming TWELVE thousand each from TWELVE NAMED TRIBES of Israel is NOT purely symbolic.
 
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