The Book of Life & Calvinism

[Samie]

Are the names of the elect body of Christ the only names written in the book of life? If Yes, then why is there blotting out of names from the book of life, as these verses seem to suggest?

KJV Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book

KJV Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

[Robert Pate]

Are the names of the elect body of Christ the only names written in the book of life? If Yes, then why is there blotting out of names from the book of life, as these verses seem to suggest?

KJV Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book

KJV Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The counterfeits will be bloted out of the book of life because they were not able to persevere.

 

[chrysostom]

Are the names of the elect body of Christ the only names written in the book of life? If Yes, then why is there blotting out of names from the book of life, as these verses seem to suggest?

KJV Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book

KJV Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

good one samie

 

[Samie]

good one samie

Thanks.

 

[George Affleck]

Are the names of the elect body of Christ the only names written in the book of life? If Yes, then why is there blotting out of names from the book of life, as these verses seem to suggest?

KJV Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book

KJV Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The way I understand this is:

We work in, and understand, time as being linear. One thing follows another.

God, being unlimited, can work this way if He so chooses, for our benefit (see walking with God in the garden) but He is not restricted by created time. He can work in the past, present and future at the same time (oops).

The references to the "Lamb's Book of Life" concern eternity which is timeless and belong to a timeless God. He can, therefore, do as He pleases.

From our perspective, our names can be blotted out unless we persevere to the end; from His perspective, they are both blotted out and never written.

 

[patrick jane]

Are the names of the elect body of Christ the only names written in the book of life? If Yes, then why is there blotting out of names from the book of life, as these verses seem to suggest?

KJV Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book

KJV Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

We're all in the book to begin with, many get blotted out/removed.

 

[patrick jane]

unless we persevere to the end;

What does that mean to you ? To persevere to the end ?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Are the names of the elect body of Christ the only names written in the book of life? If Yes, then why is there blotting out of names from the book of life, as these verses seem to suggest?

This is an often misunderstood passage. For example, open theists like to appeal to it in fruitless support that God does not know the future. In other words, for God to have to blot out a name He had written (before the foundation of the world) would imply He had imperfect knowledge of the future...which is not possible. Another example would be those that deny the security of the believer or perseverance of the saints.

The promise “I will not erase his name from the book of life,” does not necessarily imply that some do have their names erased. It simply says to the one who is in the book and who conquers in faith: I will never wipe out your name. In other words, being erased is a fearful prospect which God will not allow to happen. God will keep you safe in the book. That is one of the promises made to those who persevere and conquer. It does not say that those who fail to conquer and fall away from Christ were written in the book and got erased. (HT: Piper)

In summary, it is a verse of assurance, not a threat.

AMR

 

[Samie]

The way I understand this is:

We work in, and understand, time as being linear. One thing follows another.

God, being unlimited, can work this way if He so chooses, for our benefit (see walking with God in the garden) but He is not restricted by created time. He can work in the past, present and future at the same time (oops).

The references to the "Lamb's Book of Life" concern eternity which is timeless and belong to a timeless God. He can, therefore, do as He pleases.

From our perspective, our names can be blotted out unless we persevere to the end; from His perspective, they are both blotted out and never written.

Blotting of names signifies names were written otherwise there is nothing to blot. I believe all our names, by God's grace, were written in the book of life but only overcomers will not be blotted out.

 

[Samie]

This is an often misunderstood passage. For example, open theists like to appeal to it in fruitless support that God does not know the future. In other words, for God to have to blot out a name He had written (before the foundation of the world) would imply He had imperfect knowledge of the future...which is not possible. Another example would be those that deny the security of the believer or perseverance of the saints.

The promise “I will not erase his name from the book of life,” does not necessarily imply that some do have their names erased. It simply says to the one who is in the book and who conquers in faith: I will never wipe out your name. In other words, being erased is a fearful prospect which God will not allow to happen. God will keep you safe in the book. That is one of the promises made to those who persevere and conquer. It does not say that those who fail to conquer and fall away from Christ were written in the book and got erased. (HT: Piper)

In summary, it is a verse of assurance, not a threat.

AMR

Correct. It is a verse of assurance. And also a verse that indirectly tells us of two groups: the overcomers and those who are not. The overcomers are sure of NOT being blotted, while the other group is sure of being blotted, which is in consonance with God's words:

KJV Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

The above statement is certain that there is blotting of names, therefore names to be blotted were initially written.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

KJV Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

The above statement is certain that there is blotting of names, therefore names to be blotted were initially written.

No. Recall that I stated, the promise “I will not erase his name from the book of life,” does not necessarily imply that some do have their names erased. It simply says to the one who is in the book and who conquers in faith: I will never wipe out your name. In other words, being erased is a fearful prospect which God will not allow to happen. God will keep you safe in the book. That is one of the promises made to those who persevere and conquer. It does not say that those who fail to conquer and fall away from Christ were written in the book and got erased.

it would be impossible to conceive of them being erased from the “book of life,” since their names were never written there in the first place (as Rev. 13:8;17:8 clearly show).

In the OT text only one book is ever in mind, whereas in Revelation there are clearly more. Therefore, the metaphorical book idea in Exodus 32 and Psalm 69 is different from what we see in Rev. 3:5 and elsewhere in Revelation, which has been modeled more on the Danielic notion of two books (cf. Dan. 7:10; 12:1–2).

The wording “book of life” is significant because it differs from that of “civil register”; the book of life is in heaven, the other on earth. In Revelation, the book of life is where the names of those who have received the gift of eternal life are written (Rev. 3:5;13:8;17:8;20:12, 15;21:27; and see also Luke 10:20; Phil. 4:3; Heb. 12:23).

In the Old Testament, “to be erased from the book” on earth means “to die,” that is, to be blotted out from the civil register (Exod. 32:32–33; Ps. 69:28; Dan. 12:1).

AMR

 

[George Affleck]

Blotting of names signifies names were written otherwise there is nothing to blot. I believe all our names, by God's grace, were written in the book of life but only overcomers will not be blotted out.

So...you pretty much didn't understand what I said.
Ok - fair enough.

Blessings

 

[Samie]

No. Recall that I stated, the promise “I will not erase his name from the book of life,” does not necessarily imply that some do have their names erased. It simply says to the one who is in the book and who conquers in faith: I will never wipe out your name. In other words, being erased is a fearful prospect which God will not allow to happen. God will keep you safe in the book. That is one of the promises made to those who persevere and conquer. It does not say that those who fail to conquer and fall away from Christ were written in the book and got erased.

I see no need of mentioning overcomers when only overcomers are written in the book of life and God has no plans of implementing what He told Moses. Clearly there are two groups in the book of life: the group of the overcomers and the group of those who are not. The promise of not being blotted from the book of life was made for the group of the overcomers.

it would be impossible to conceive of them being erased from the “book of life,” since their names were never written there in the first place (as Rev. 13:8;17:8 clearly show).

True. The earth-dwellers in those verses are children of demons, and there is no plan of redemption for the devil and his host. But Adam & Eve and all their descendants were all written in the book of life (see Rom 5:18). And there are two groups in Adam's race: overcomers and those that are not.

In the OT text only one book is ever in mind, whereas in Revelation there are clearly more. Therefore, the metaphorical book idea in Exodus 32 and Psalm 69 is different from what we see in Rev. 3:5 and elsewhere in Revelation, which has been modeled more on the Danielic notion of two books (cf. Dan. 7:10; 12:1–2).

The wording “book of life” is significant because it differs from that of “civil register”; the book of life is in heaven, the other on earth. In Revelation, the book of life is where the names of those who have received the gift of eternal life are written (Rev. 3:5;13:8;17:8;20:12, 15;21:27; and see also Luke 10:20; Phil. 4:3; Heb. 12:23).

In the Old Testament, “to be erased from the book” on earth means “to die,” that is, to be blotted out from the civil register (Exod. 32:32–33; Ps. 69:28; Dan. 12:1).

AMR

Not a civil register, I guess. It was a book God has written Himself (Ex 32:32). I don't think God is involved in writing civil registers.

 

[Samie]

Are the names of the elect body of Christ the only names written in the book of life? If Yes, then why is there blotting out of names from the book of life, as these verses seem to suggest?

KJV Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book

KJV Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Seems like blotting out of names from the book of life does not favor Calvinism.

 

[Samie]

Seems like blotting out of names from the book of life does not favor Calvinism.

Calvinism teaches eternal security for all whom Christ died for. Hence, since NOT everyone will ultimately inherit eternal life, it follows from its teachings that Christ did not die for all mankind without exception.

But blotting out of names from the book of life negates this concept.

Christ died for all - Adam & Eve and all their descendants - without exception. And all their names were written in the book of life. But only overcomers will not be blotted out from it.

For as long as one's name is in the book of life, he is secure. Only Christ can take back the security He has given by blotting one's name from the book of life.

 

[chrysostom]

Calvinism teaches eternal security for all whom Christ died for. Hence, since NOT everyone will ultimately inherit eternal life, it follows from its teachings that Christ did not die for all mankind without exception.

But blotting out of names from the book of life negates this concept.

Christ died for all - Adam & Eve and all their descendants - without exception. And all their names were written in the book of life. But only overcomers will not be blotted out from it.

For as long as one's name is in the book of life, he is secure. Only Christ can take back the security He has given by blotting one's name from the book of life.

so we must continue to overcometh

 

[Samie]

The call to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21) likewise negates the teaching of Calvinism that Christ did not die for all mankind without exception.

I think there is no need to exhort those who are already eternally secure to overcome evil with good.There's just no need to exhort them to overcome when as sure as the sun rises in the east, their names won't be blotted out from the book of life and that tells us they are sure of being overcomers because overcomers won't be blotted out from it.

Yet, the Bible is replete with the call for people to overcome evil with good. This tells us that there are overcomers and non-overcomers among those for whom Christ died for. And this does not sit well with Calvinism.

 

[Samie]

Yet, the Bible is replete with the call for people to overcome evil with good. This tells us that there are overcomers and non-overcomers among those for whom Christ died for. And this does not sit well with Calvinism.

Why would God call those who are already overcomers to overcome? He won't, I guess. The call to overcome evil with good seems to go against the concept of Calvinism.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Our understanding of omnipresence is limited. Calvinsim ignores this reality. I won't deny the truth that here we can only "know in part"(1 Corinthians 13)

But we have clues. If the future already happened. It wouldn't be the future. Jesus hasn't returned yet, last I checked. Clearly the future has not happened. So what can God see of the future? I don't deny that He can see it, nor that there is true love that is true, that is free. That Jesus laid down His life because of love, because He was given authority over Himself and He gloriously chose love! What A most gracious loving savior He is! So if love is true, freely given love and if God can see the future and He can do anything, see anything, then He can see every possibility of the future and yes is alive and well today, and He is working with us for His great love, His great name, His great kingdom! The story isn't over yet, and He is not sitting idly by and He is listening to children's cry for mercy and help!! To Him be the glory for ever and ever! He does that wish that any should be lost!It is by His love and His mercy and grace that we can find Him and be filled with Him and He has given us the freewill by His sovereignty to choose to embrace Him and overcome by His might and love or to reject Him by our own pride.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Our understanding of omnipresence is limited. Calvinsim ignores this reality.

How so? When we say God is omnipresent this indicates the repletive presence of God in all created places and in relation to the limited presence of all creatures.

God's repletive presence means He is incapable of being judged or measured by circumscription or defined by physical limitations or spatial boundaries, but rather identified as filling space or acting upon space while at the same time transcending it. Naturally, God is eternally present everywhere, yet without the finite creation there is no “place.” Thus, theologians refer to God’s eternal presence, or His filling of all things, as His immensity, whereas omnipresence speaks to God’s relation to His creation. God’s immensity and omnipresence are in one respect the same, yet immensity emphasizes God’s transcendence, while omnipresence emphasizes his immanence. This distinction is actually quite important because it clarifies that God was everywhere present at creation of the temporal world. And, now, as the Creator and Sustainer of His creation, God must be present to all space with the fullness of His being in order that it may exist at all.

God, as non-embodied spirit, is everywhere present. God does not extend himself—this would be to divide himself into part, which is impossible—nor does God defuse himself like the sun does its rays. God fills all space. In other words, the limitations of space have no reference to him. He is not absent from any portion of space, nor more present in one portion than another (See Hodge, Theology). God’s omnipresence is not a quantifiable thing but rather it is part of His very nature. God is not present in things as their (the thing's) essence—this would make God pantheistic, but He is present in the fullness of His essence in that He fills and sustains all things.

Contrary to some open theist's odd notions, God, being everywhere present, does not literally come or go to or from specific places. Where such language is employed (e.g., Gen. 11:5; Isa. 64:1–2), it must be recognized for what it is—metaphorical language indicating or invoking a special manifestation of God’s working either in grace or judgment.

Since God is not a physical being who takes up space, it would be wrong to think of God as a sort of gas that fills up the universe. In that sense, He is not everywhere, since God is not a thing, like water or air, that can take up space. Rather, God is everywhere insofar as He is not limited by a spatio-temporal body, knows everything immediately without benefit of sensory organs, and sustains everything that exists. In other words, God’s omnipresence logically follows from his omniscience, incorporeality, omnipotence, metaphysical uniqueness, and role as Creator and Sustainer of the universe. Although neither identical to creation (as in pantheism) nor limited by it…God is immanent, spiritually and personally present at every point of the universe. (See, Francis J. Beckwith, “Mormon Theism, the Traditional Christian Concept of God, and Greek Philosophy: a Critical Analysis,” Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 44.4 (2001), Questia, Web, 5 Apr. 2012.)

So what can God see of the future? I don't deny that He can see it.

The future, for us, is yet to come. As you agree God knows the future. Why? Because He ordained it, else He would not infallibly know it as a proper object of His knowledge, His fore-knowing. Thanks be to God who knows what is to come such that His glory will be made manifest.

So, again, what reality is being ignored by the Calvinist or the Reformed believer?

AMR