Again, you have me confused with someone else :chuckle:
It is Interplanner who has gone on about "Little Asia."
You're on a row, daqq man; no sense in slowing yourself down now, lol
Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12
ECT Tertullian, Augustine and Marcion... Dispensation attacked by the first two!
- Thread starter Evil.Eye.<(I)>
- Start date
Again, you have me confused with someone else :chuckle:
It is Interplanner who has gone on about "Little Asia."
You're on a row, daqq man; no sense in slowing yourself down now, lol
Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12
Marcion understood a lot more than you apparently give him credit for. But aside from that you are bearing false witness again. I do not reject Paul, I am not a legalist, and I do not twist the writings of Paul because he plainly tells me that he teaches the commandments of Messiah and I know that Messiah expounds the Torah. The reason you perceive me as being and doing all those things is because you yourself reject the Torah and the Testimony of the Messiah in Gospel accounts as applying to yourself. Therefore you have a perverted view of all the writings of Paul because you have used them to concoct another gospel, (which is no gospel at all), and when someone else disagrees with your perverted gospel you call them the perverters of truth simply because you imagine yourself to be the one with the truth. Too bad your version of truth must cut out the "Old Testament" while mine does not; too bad for you, that is, because it proves that you are the one in error. Moreover I do not run around calling people "goy", and if you insist that I do, then please quote the place where I have done so. The word goy is the same as the Greek word ethnos, and has at least four typical meanings; nations, gentiles, heathen, races, and sometimes even simply "peoples". Moreover why would I have any need to do so anyways? even concerning you? when out of one side of your mouth you claim to be Jewish, and yet you side with the things written in Paul which you imagine to only concern the "Gentiles", and in your doctrine you imagine that you get to remain a "Gentile" and never be converted into the commonwealth of the all Israel of the Father. When you imagine that you get to stay a "Gentile" it really is the same as saying that you get to remain a Canaanite in the house of Elohim, which is an utter violation of the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, and that you do because you do not understand the supernal implications of such things. The Master refutes your doctrine, in Mat 15:22-28, which reveals that the "Canaanite" woman of Tyre was forced to change her own mindset, and be willing to become grafted into Israel by faith, and she was willing to do so, and no doubt she was eventually grafted in, and was no more a "Canaanite". That passage even fulfills prophecy, (from Isa 23:17,18), and these things can be understood from the book of Acts, when Paul lands at Tyre and finds disciples there, (Isa 23:17,18, Mat 15:22, Acts 21:3-7, Zec 14:21). It is a terrible idea of yours to go around judging what is in other peoples hearts and minds when such things do not come forth from their mouths, for that again, is the only way that you can play judge if you wish to do so, that is, by what comes forth from the mouth, (Mat 15:18-22, the same passage which includes the woman of Canaan from the coasts of Tyre). You judge me as having things in my heart and mind which I have neither said nor written, and therefore, you are playing heart and mind-reader, like a demi-god, and judging motive without any evidence from what I have said or written anywhere here in these forums. You are just a slanderer and false accuser seeking to save your own skin and justify yourself before men; and that judgment is made by your very own words, statements, and deeds, which you do continually to supposedly defend your doctrine. Do you think bearing false witness is a good way to defend your faith? Apparently you and many others believe that bearing false witness and slandering people is a good way to defend what you believe. Tisk, tisk, I suppose Marcion would be proud of you if he was not dead.
Oh... Daqq... "slowly tapping your chin to the side with my fist... in a friendly gesture"... you say the darndist things.
You and Kanye are both trying to "get your money right". You missed the point. Self Righteousness is Carnal Cash in scripture and it isn't the currency of God. He is the currency of all things spiritual and there's a bunch of people in debt that think they can afford the tab...
But... "Ha Ha... I can't tell you nuthin"... "cuz you getting yo money right".
# Bad Idea... and that about "raps" that up.
Spoiler
Lol, if you indeed you understood spiritual money you would not have said those two things in a row. One can only learn about kingdom money in the Torah, which you call legalism, and seem to avoid like the plague. Is it legalism if I turn the other cheek and your Master owes my Master thirty shekels of silver? Nope, just the kingdom law according to both my Master Teacher and Paul his servant, (Mat 5:39, Exo 21:32, 1 Cor 9:9-10). Toodleoo . . .
Lol, if you indeed you understood spiritual money you would not have said those two things in a row. One can only learn about kingdom money in the Torah, which you call legalism, and seem to avoid like the plague. Is it legalism if I turn the other cheek and your Master owes my Master thirty shekels of silver? Nope, just the kingdom law according to both my Master Teacher and Paul his servant, (Mat 5:39, Exo 21:32, 1 Cor 9:9-10). Toodleoo . . .
30 pieces of silver... hmmmmm.
I do believe someone wrote a response to this, much better than I could have... I do believe this OP could have been tailor made to respond to you.
Spoiler
[MENTION=17195]daqq[/MENTION]... read Pate's words several times... he's "on the money"... but not the "stone kind".
Have fun with that stone currency Daqq.
I'll say thank you to God while you're busy trying to wow him with your self righteous accomplishments. :think:
Shall we go ahead and drop the build a Pharisee picture now?
Spoiler
...
Spoiler
If it's Toodles for now... [MENTION=17195]daqq[/MENTION] .... so be it.
2 Corinthians 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end,
30 pieces of silver... hmmmmm.
I do believe someone wrote a response to this, much better than I could have... I do believe this OP could have been tailor made to respond to you.
@daqq... read Pate's words several times... he's "on the money"... but not the "stone kind".
Have fun with that stone currency Daqq.
I'll say thank you to God while you're busy trying to wow him with your self righteous accomplishments. :think:
Shall we go ahead and drop the build a Pharisee picture now?Oh... and... P.S.Spoiler
...Spoiler
If it's Toodles for now... @daqq .... so be it.
2 Corinthians 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end,
Dream on, "money" in the kingdom of Elohim has nothing to do with you or Pate's versions of what you imagine to be "salvation". In fact you are never going to start understanding anything until you break down and start doing the will of Elohim just as the NT scriptures tell you that you must do; and finally receive the promise in the full ending and putting away of *you*. But your error is catastrophic because you call the commandments of the Master "works of the flesh" and twist his words and the words of Paul for you own benefit. The will of Elohim is that we cut off sin; but you call that legalism and works of the flesh. Cutting off sin is not works of the flesh and legalism if you are using the law lawfully, (which is against yourself and especially to put to death the flesh), and so long as you use the law not for your own righteousness but to be pleasing to Elohim, (which is to put to death the deeds of the flesh and your members which are upon the earth according to Paul). Your arguments have become so twisted you have marginalized your own doctrine into absurdity. You essentially say that what the Master teaches, and what his apostles taught, including Paul, are works of the flesh which result in self righteousness. You don't get it, yes, it is true, there is nothing you can do to save yourself, but so what, that does not mean you can throw all of the commandments out the window. If you truly desire to know Elohim, and to be saved, or delivered, or whatever you want to call it, then do His will, and He and His Son will come: but He does not come to His prodigal son, and kiss him on the neck, and receive him back, and put the best robe on him, while his lost son is still in the middle of the pig pen. Nope, at that point the prodigal son is lost in the eyes of his Father, even dead, because the prodigal son had not yet come to his senses and turned his heart back toward the Father. So it really all boils down to an issue within the heart, just as Paul says in the passage you reference, and the veil can only be removed IN Messiah, and Pate and I have already had plenty of discussion on that issue: to be "IN Messiah" is to be "IN" his Testimony. If one is not walking IN the Testimony of the Messiah found in the Gospel accounts then the same is not "IN Messiah".
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30 pieces of silver... hmmmmm.
I do believe someone wrote a response to this, much better than I could have... I do believe this OP could have been tailor made to respond to you.
@daqq... read Pate's words several times... he's "on the money"... but not the "stone kind".
Have fun with that stone currency Daqq.
I'll say thank you to God while you're busy trying to wow him with your self righteous accomplishments. :think:
Shall we go ahead and drop the build a Pharisee picture now?Oh... and... P.S.Spoiler
...Spoiler
If it's Toodles for now... @daqq .... so be it.
2 Corinthians 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end,
PS ~ If anyone else might be interested, I have responded to the Robert Pate post in his own thread, (here), where EE bumped it to show that he had quoted it elsewhere. The "two-Gospel believers" actually reject the Righteousness of Elohim, of which Paul speaks in Romans 10:3, (quoted and referenced by Robert Pate), because the Righteousness of Elohim is the Testimony of the Messiah found in Gospel accounts, which the MADists and modern Marcionites claim was "only for the Jews" and supposedly for some concocted separate dispensation which no longer applies to themselves. They have cut themselves off from the Root by sidelining the holy Testimony of the Son of Elohim which is the true Righteousness of Elohim. They in fact refuse to submit to the Righteousness of Elohim, just as Paul says, because they do not understand most of what Paul actually says even though he plainly states that he teaches the commandments of the LORD.
PPS ~ By the way, EE, you fail to realize that the Pharisees in the Gospel accounts, and the rulers of the people, are those who rejected the Testimony of the Master: and that is not me, but you and yours, by way of your doctrines and invisible Marcionite pair of "theological scissors" which you use to excise and cut out what you do not want to be included in *your dispensation*.
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Interplanner
Well-known member
The righteousness of God in Rom 3 and Phil 3 is not an accumulation of human actions for God. It is what God did in Christ, which is available by faith to each believer, as a basis of fellowship and acceptance with God. It does have the side effect of righteous acts, but is not to be equated with those.
I'd say the imputed righteousness of God by faith, has the INTENDED impact of, on the one hand, ENABLEMENT in righteous acts, DESIRE, on the other.
That Grace Motivation that God's Grace Impact is meant to Motivate/ Enable/ Allow.
Rom. 6; Rom. 8; 2 Cor. 5.; Gal. 5; etc.
Acts 17:11,12
The Righteousness of Elohim is the Testimony of His Son. Any who hear that Testimony and reject it as applying to themselves do not even have "atonement", for it is also likened to a robe, "the best robe", and anyone who refuses to put on that robe, (which is also the mind of Messiah), is naked and walking in darkness. For the same reason "putting on the mind of Messiah" is also likened to "washing your robe in the blood of the Lamb", and for the same reason Paul speaks of the conscience as a garment, (in some cases even as if "seared with a hot iron", which means the garment of the conscience is being ruined by those who ignore their own conscience). It is really all about the Testimony of the Master, for he plainly states that his words are Spirit, and again, for the same reason the author of Hebrews calls the Testimony of the Messiah "the Spirit of Grace", for his Testimony is tantamount to his blood. If one does not have and hold the Testimony of the Messiah in uprightness and truth, (which also means walking in it like it is a robe, the conscience, which needs to be maintained and kept clean), then the same neither has Holy Spirit, nor the Holy Spirit, nor the Spirit of Grace, nor the atonement, (or "atoning blood"), of Messiah. Without the Testimony found in the Gospel accounts we have nothing. This has been a long-standing argument between myself and Evil.Eye, and several others including Robert Pate; for they reject this thinking for some other idea which they call grace, (and I can only imagine what that must be, but for some it appears to be a "sinners prayer", or a simple one-time "confession of faith" which supposedly "saves" them for all eternity).
Anyone who truly desires to do the will of the Father will know of the doctrine, that is, be able to perceive and understand it, (John 7:16-17), because the will of Elohim is to cut off sin and sanctify-purify, (Heb 10:36, 1 Thes 4:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, 1John 3:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9).
Here, daqq - read these two articles (while those two sites are still running) - so you'll actually have some idea of what you are talking "about" when you attack it.
Either that, or continue with your straw men :chuckle:
Both articles are transcripts from a study on these issues not only from a Mid-Acts GRACE Perspective, but by an individual who is known throughout Mid-Acts circles as "literally a walking Bible."
Law and Grace
http://www.av-1611.com/LAW_AND_GRACE.htm
The Real You
http://understandgrace.com/the-real-you/
Rom. 5:8
Lets take the first few lines of the first one I clicked on:
Wrong, wrong, and wrong . . .
Under grace means under the Testimony of the Messiah, it does not mean abolishing the Torah and claiming that the Testimony of the Messiah was mainly only "for the Jews". Secondly much of the time you read words like "free" and "freely" in Paul the word used, (adverb, dorean), comes from doron, an offering, like a freewill offering or a soterion-peace offering, yes, that's right, the peace offering is called SOTERION in the Septuagint. Here are some examples of what I mean:
Romans 3:24 KJV
24 Being justified freely [G1432 dorean] by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:24 T/R
24 δικαιουμενοι δωρεαν τη αυτου χαριτι δια της απολυτρωσεως της εν χριστω ιησου
G1432 δωρεάν dorean (dō-re-an') adv.
1. as a free gift, freely.
2. (negatively) for nothing, without charge.
3. (by implication) without cause.
{literally or figuratively}
[accusative case of G1431 as adverb]
KJV: without a cause, freely, for naught, in vain
G1431 δωρεά dorea (dō-re-a') n.
1. a gift, present.
2. (especially) a free gift.
[from G1435]
KJV: gift
G1435 δῶρον doron (dō'-ron) n.
1. a gift, present.
2. (specially, to God) an offering.
[of Hebrew origin]
KJV: gift, offering
Romans 5:15-16 KJV
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift [G5486 charisma]. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift [G1431 dorea] by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: [G1434 dorema] for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift [G5486 charisma] is of many offences unto justification.
Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift [G1435 doron-offering] of God:
Ephesians 2:8 T/R
8 τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως ( και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον )
8 For by grace you are saved [through] by way of the faithfulness, ( and that is not from-of yourselves: it is the gift-offering of Elohim )
So the gift of Messiah is what? It is clearly his Testimony which cost him his life to give us freely. His Testimony IS the offering. If you reject it by saying that it does not belong in *your dispensation*, and therefore does not apply to *you*, then by default you reject your very own atonement because you reject the very GIFT OFFERING and SOTERION-PEACE-OFFERING of the Messiah you claim to believe in, have faith in, love, know, and follow.
Thirdly the Torah is not the antithesis of Grace because without the Torah you would have no grace. The Gospel of John makes this clear in John 1:17 which mostly goes mistranslated in English, (even with words added that are not in the Greek text), because of an anti-law bias. Both the T/R and the W/H say the same thing so there is no excuse for the incompetence we find in anti-law English translations:
John 1:17 T/R
17 οτι ο νομος δια μωσεως εδοθη η χαρις και η αληθεια δια ιησου χριστου εγενετο
17 Because the Torah through Moses was given, the grace and the truth through Messiah Yeshua came to be.
John 1:17 W/H
17 οτι ο νομος δια μωυσεως εδοθη η χαρις και η αληθεια δια ιησου χριστου εγενετο
17 Because the Torah through Moses was given, the grace and the truth through Messiah Yeshua came to be.
Without the Torah you have no grace because the Torah was given so that Elohim might show forth His grace through His Son. Moreover even Paul tells you in the same discourse where he says that the Torah is your "schoolmaster to bring you to Messiah" that the heir, (meaning joint-heirs, the faithful), for as long as he is a babe or child, differs nothing from a servant-slave, though he or she be destined to be master of all things; but is under "tutors and governors until the time appointed of the Father", (a day and hour which no man knows, but the Father only). And what and who are your "tutors and governors" if not the Torah, Prophets, and Writings? that is to say, the Word: for likewise Stephen calls the Torah, LIVING ORACLES, in his testimony which is stated by Luke to be given while he was full of the Holy Spirit, and therefore it is undeniable that the doctrine of the apostles and disciples of Messiah was and is that the Torah is the LIVING WORD of the Father.
"The reason many try to put themselves and others under a law system is a failure to understand the basic nature and difference between law and grace."
The reason so many desire to abolish the Living Oracles and Word of the Father is because they do not believe His Son whose Testimony is found in the Gospel accounts, and Who is himself the Word of the Father, and they rather prefer to hinge all of their hopes on a perverted version of the writings of Paul. Paul therefore will be their accuser and especially because they twist his words. That is as far as I need to go for now in that first link you gave. The person is blinded by the modern religianity teachings of false shepherds who despise the Word of the Father; and anyone who despises the Living Word of the Father despises the Messiah.
John 1:16-17 W/H
16 οτι εκ του πληρωματος αυτου ημεις παντες ελαβομεν και χαριν αντι χαριτος
17 οτι ο νομος δια μωυσεως εδοθη η χαρις και η αληθεια δια ιησου χριστου εγενετο
This thinking comes from Torah and Prophets:
Zechariah 4:7 OG LXX (http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/38_004.htm)
7 τις ει συ το ορος το μεγα προ προσωπου ζοροβαβελ του κατορθωσαι και εξοισω τον λιθον της κληρονομιας ισοτητα χαριτος χαριτα αυτης
"ισοτητα χαριτος χαριτα αυτης" ~ "Grace equal to the grace thereof", (Zec 4:7 LXX).
"χαριν αντι χαριτος" ~ "Grace for grace", (John 1:16).
"Soul for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" . . .
And according to Master from the same Torah, Prophets, and Writings:
"Grace for grace", (John 1:16).
"Forgiveness for forgiveness", (Matthew 6:9,10,11,12,13,14,15).
"Mercy for mercy", (the "Law of Liberty", James 2:8,9,10,11,12,13).
John 1:16-17 W/H
16 οτι εκ του πληρωματος αυτου ημεις παντες ελαβομεν και χαριν αντι χαριτος
17 οτι ο νομος δια μωυσεως εδοθη η χαρις και η αληθεια δια ιησου χριστου εγενετο
John 1:15-17
15 John testified concerning him, and cried out, saying, This was he of whom I said, The one coming after me came to be before me, for before me he was:
16 for out of his fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
17 Because the Torah was given through Moses: the grace and the truth came to be through Messiah Yeshua.
"Lame" ~ "the opinion of the opinionated" . . . :chuckle:
lol - all that just to wind up having said...nothing.
Here, daqq; let me help you look silly.
You see this?
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
That is this...
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
And here is John 1's "grace for grace..."
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
In other words, The Law was given Israel by Moses, but the Grace needed to enable Israelites to be the sons of God He has called that nation to be under said Law; the Grace promised them towards that enablement, came by, was made true, that is to say, was made a reality, by Jesus Christ.
By Who?
Who exactly was this man Who made Israel's Prophesied New Covenant Grace Enablement the reality at last?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 1:22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. 1:24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees. 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
Who was He?
And was that about Moses? What was his connection to all this?
John 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
The reality of that dream Jacob had about that ladder, was at last at hand, or near to being made Israel's truth (or reality).
But what happened to this Prophesied Israelite Grace?
Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. 19:45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought; 19:46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
What happened to said Prophesied Grace and Truth Promised Israel towards their Perfect Enablement at last?
One aspect of what became of all that is pointed out in the following...
Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12