ECT Tertullian, Augustine and Marcion... Dispensation attacked by the first two!

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Allow me to mark two of these theologians stances with their attribution of error towards Paul or Peter, James and Jude.

Turtullian has two major theological marks agains him...

1. He is the source of the TRIAD "Trinity" and removed the UNE from Triune. Turtullian's Trinity is a distinct Tri-Ad of 3 God's that act as one and he is the source of the "version" of the Trinity that is Semi-Arian in it's over distinction of the ONE that is manifest in 3. The UNE aspect or One... or "Unified Substance" of God is shattered by Turtullian's pagan take on the "Actual" TriUnity" of God! Turtullan must have 1 lined 1 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Timothy 3:16 from his collection of bible books.

2. Turtullian railed against Paul and called him apostate to attempt to destroy Marcion's "faith alone" exegesis.
​

Augustine has 2 major strikes against him.

1. Augustine is responsible for offloading duality onto God, via his original sin doctrine. I have written fairly extensively on this here... and labeled Augustine's take... "Classical Original Sin"... which is certainly opposed to "Biblical Original Sin".

2. Augustine accused James, Jude and Peter of undermining Paul and falsely imposing legalism on the pure gospel. Again... note that as Turtullian... Augustine shelves Dispensational understanding and chooses to place authors of canon in "error"... while simultaneously... "yet unknowingly" placing God in error if 2 Timothy 3:16 is to be believed and Holy "Writ" Canon is Divine.​

Now for the quoted article and Marcion...

144 AD... and familiar Dispensational Biblical discussion via Marcion... a man now ushered into the halls of "Proposed Heresy"... But... what did he specifically have to say? What work validates Paul's works and supports their presence in Canon?

Without further ado, I give you a quoted article that has a familiar answer and Dispensational thrust... while carrying biases that allow its content to be read as impartial to my point...

"Books... Marcionism-The Forgotten Crisis Overview/Introduction An important but frequently forgotten episode in the early church was the movement founded by Marcion near 144 A.D. It is known as Marcionism. It is important because it explains the two gospels in the current New Testament and why they were tolerated. Marcionism was a split in the church that almost divided Christianity in two. Marcion taught only Paul had the correct gospel of Jesus, i.e., faith alone, but the twelve apostles presented a Jesus who supposedly had a superceded gospel that did not apply to Gentiles. Marcion said the twelve taught a gospel of Law where disobedience caused loss of salvation, especially found in Matthew's Gospel. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * A prominent leader of early orthodox Christianity was Tertullian. In 207 A.D. Tertullian in Against Marcion rebutted Marcion by attacking Paul. He questioned whether Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ, saying a self-serving claim, as Paul made of being an apostle of Jesus, does not suffice. Tertullian suggested Paul was a false prophet. He also called Paul the "apostle of the heretics." See immediately below, Marcionism - Excerpt from JWOS] * Marcionism -- Excerpt from Jesus Words on Salvation at pp 578 et seq. Importance of Protestants Coming to Grips with the Early Heretic Marcion’s Cheap Grace Doctrine Has the last four hundred years been a waste? Has the descent into cheap grace at odds with Jesus’ doctrine all this time been an unprecedented error? No. This has been a valu*able period of cleansing of doctrinal errors. However, our response to those errors ended up in over-reaction. We need to come back to Jesus. It is that simple. We can take encour*agement from the fact that this very same error happened once before. Let’s see how the early church escaped, and per*haps we can simply repeat the measures taken back then. Most Protestants are utterly unaware that Paulinism, in particular faith alone doctrine, previously threatened to overwhelm Jesus’ salvation doctrine and destroy it. In 144 A.D., there arose a ship-builder from Pontus named Marcion. He founded a church system that rivaled in numbers and influence that of the orthodox Christian church. By 150 A.D., Justin wrote that Marcionites had expanded “to the uttermost bounds of the earth.” [Justin, Apology 1.26.]*It required three hundred years for the orthodox church to eventually rout out the heresy of Marcion. Marcion was not battling the Roman Catholic church. It did not yet exist. Instead, there was a large orthodox church led from Jerusalem. The Roman bishop was just one bishop among many throughout the Mediterranean. Even if Peter was in Rome at one point, there was no effort to exercise superiority from Rome until many centuries later. What happened is that Marcion declared in 144 A.D. that Paul alone was the true apostle for the era of grace; the twelve apostles, in particular their gospel of Matthew, were tainted by legalism; the Jesus of the twelve belonged to the God of the Old Testament; and the Jesus of Paul represented the son of a loving Father who now accepted us by faith alone. In Marcion’s book known as the Antitheses, which exists only in fragments quoted by others, we find endorse*ment of everything Pauline, including faith alone. Marcion’s primary antithesis involved faith and law. On one hand, there was the Law given Moses, which the apostolic twelve endorsed in Matthew’s gospel. On the other hand, there was the faith alone doctrine of Paul. To solve this antithesis, Mar*cion invented the idea that Christ had two personages — the one of the twelve and the one presented by Paul. The Jesus of the twelve represented the Creator-God of the Old Testament. The Jesus of Paul represented the Good God or the Father of the New Testament. The Antitheses of 144 A.D. reads: 18.The Jewish Christ [of Matthew et al] was designated by the Creator [i.e., the God of the Old Testament] solely to restore the Jewish peo*ple from the Diaspora; but our Christ [present in Paul’s writings] was commissioned by the good God [of the new testament] to liberate all mankind. 19. The Good [God] [of Paul’s Jesus] is good toward all men; the Creator [God of the Jesus of the twelve], however, promises salvation only to those who are obedient to him [i.e., legal*ism]. The Good [God of Paul’s Jesus] redeems those who believe in him, but he does not judge those who are disobedient to him; the Creator [God of the twelve’s Jesus], however, redeems his faithful and judges and punishes the sinners. 29. The Christ [of the Creator God represented by the twelve] promises to the Jews the restora*tion of their former condition by return of their land and, after death, a refuge in Abraham’s bosom in the underworld [i.e., Sheol/hell]. Our Christ [of the Jesus presented by Paul] will establish the Kingdom of God, an eternal and heavenly possession.​ (Source: Dr. Peter M. Head (New Testament Research Fellow, Tyndale House),*The History of the Interpretation of the Apostle Paul (2001).) The Jerusalem church previously replied to anti-Law and faith-alone doctrine by saying Paul was an apostate and did not represent true Christianity. As Professor James Dunn notes: “The most direct heirs of the Jewish-Christian group*ings within earliest Christianity [i.e., the early Jerusalem church] regarded Paul as the great apostate, an arch enemy,” citing Epistula Petri 2.3; Clem. Hom. 17:18-19. (James D. G. Dunn,*The Cambridge Companion to St. Paul (Cambridge University Press, 2003) at 2.) The Jerusalem church’s response is directly reflected in our New Testament. As Augustine noted in 413 A.D. in his treatise Faith and Works, the epistles of James (the first bishop of Jerusalem), Jude (the second bishop of Jerusalem), and Second Peter were specifically written to destroy “faith alone” doctrine as inferred from Paul’s epistles. (See page 523n supra.) Second Peter even said many would fall from their “steadfastness in Christ” by relying upon “difficult to understand” passages in the writings of Paul. These passages were seen as giving a “liberty” that Second Peter said was foreign to the true gospel. (See pages 500-504 supra.)"

Reference ... https://jesuswordsonly.com/books/56-marcionism.html

This war rages on and faith vs. works... Law vs. grace... is officially outed as an old battle that has raged on since Jesus uttered John 6:63 !

My conclusion? Marcion is the only of these three to maintain a continuative veneration for Holy Writ while recognizing ALL scripture as good for teaching, reproof and doctrine. What was his secret? Biblical, Dispensational division as Scripture itself prescribes... "time and time" again!

Does this make any post biblical scholar suitable for lensing of scripture?

HELL NO... but... The debate isn't new. That is my purpose in posting this... as well as pointing out Augustine inconsistency that joins with Turtullian's.

 

[Danoh]

Evil.Eye., enjoyed your post in the Spoiler below, here is some additional insight in the pdf, etc., on the following link...enjoy.

http://gracehistoryproject.blogspot.com/2010/11/lesson-10-patristic-period-formation-of.html?m=1

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12

Spoiler

Allow me to mark two of these theologians stances with their attribution of error towards Paul or Peter, James and Jude.

Turtullian has two major theological marks agains him...

1. He is the source of the TRIAD "Trinity" and removed the UNE from Triune. Turtullian's Trinity is a distinct Tri-Ad of 3 God's that act as one and he is the source of the "version" of the Trinity that is Semi-Arian in it's over distinction of the ONE that is manifest in 3. The UNE aspect or One... or "Unified Substance" of God is shattered by Turtullian's pagan take on the "Actual" TriUnity" of God! Turtullan must have 1 lines 1 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Timothy 3:16.

2. Turtullian railed against Paul and called him apostate to attempt to destroy Marcion's faith alone exegesis.
​

Augustine has 2 major strikes against him.

1. Augustine is responsible for offloading duality onto God, via his original sin doctrine. I have written fairly extensively on this here... and labeled Augustine's take... "Classical Original Sin"... which is certainly opposed to "Biblical Original Sin".

2. Augustine accused James, Jude and Peter of undermining Paul and falsely imposing legalism on the pure gospel. Again... note that as Turtullian... Augustine shelves Dispensational understanding and chooses to place authors of canon in "error"... while simultaneously... "yet unknowingly" placing God in error if 2 Timothy 3:16 is to be believed and Holy "Writ" Canon is Divine.​

Now for the quoted article and Marcion...

144 AD... and familiar Dispensational Biblical discussion via Marcion... a man now ushered into the halls of "Proposed Heresy"... But... what did he specifically have to say? What work validates Paul's works and supports their presence in Canon?

Without further ado, I give you a quoted article that has a familiar answer and Dispensational thrust... while carrying biases that allow its content to be read as impartial to my point...

"Books... Marcionism-The Forgotten Crisis Overview/Introduction An important but frequently forgotten episode in the early church was the movement founded by Marcion near 144 A.D. It is known as Marcionism. It is important because it explains the two gospels in the current New Testament and why they were tolerated. Marcionism was a split in the church that almost divided Christianity in two. Marcion taught only Paul had the correct gospel of Jesus, i.e., faith alone, but the twelve apostles presented a Jesus who supposedly had a superceded gospel that did not apply to Gentiles. Marcion said the twelve taught a gospel of Law where disobedience caused loss of salvation, especially found in Matthew's Gospel. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * A prominent leader of early orthodox Christianity was Tertullian. In 207 A.D. Tertullian in Against Marcion rebutted Marcion by attacking Paul. He questioned whether Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ, saying a self-serving claim, as Paul made of being an apostle of Jesus, does not suffice. Tertullian suggested Paul was a false prophet. He also called Paul the "apostle of the heretics." See immediately below, Marcionism - Excerpt from JWOS] * Marcionism -- Excerpt from Jesus Words on Salvation at pp 578 et seq. Importance of Protestants Coming to Grips with the Early Heretic Marcion’s Cheap Grace Doctrine Has the last four hundred years been a waste? Has the descent into cheap grace at odds with Jesus’ doctrine all this time been an unprecedented error? No. This has been a valu*able period of cleansing of doctrinal errors. However, our response to those errors ended up in over-reaction. We need to come back to Jesus. It is that simple. We can take encour*agement from the fact that this very same error happened once before. Let’s see how the early church escaped, and per*haps we can simply repeat the measures taken back then. Most Protestants are utterly unaware that Paulinism, in particular faith alone doctrine, previously threatened to overwhelm Jesus’ salvation doctrine and destroy it. In 144 A.D., there arose a ship-builder from Pontus named Marcion. He founded a church system that rivaled in numbers and influence that of the orthodox Christian church. By 150 A.D., Justin wrote that Marcionites had expanded “to the uttermost bounds of the earth.” [Justin, Apology 1.26.]*It required three hundred years for the orthodox church to eventually rout out the heresy of Marcion. Marcion was not battling the Roman Catholic church. It did not yet exist. Instead, there was a large orthodox church led from Jerusalem. The Roman bishop was just one bishop among many throughout the Mediterranean. Even if Peter was in Rome at one point, there was no effort to exercise superiority from Rome until many centuries later. What happened is that Marcion declared in 144 A.D. that Paul alone was the true apostle for the era of grace; the twelve apostles, in particular their gospel of Matthew, were tainted by legalism; the Jesus of the twelve belonged to the God of the Old Testament; and the Jesus of Paul represented the son of a loving Father who now accepted us by faith alone. In Marcion’s book known as the Antitheses, which exists only in fragments quoted by others, we find endorse*ment of everything Pauline, including faith alone. Marcion’s primary antithesis involved faith and law. On one hand, there was the Law given Moses, which the apostolic twelve endorsed in Matthew’s gospel. On the other hand, there was the faith alone doctrine of Paul. To solve this antithesis, Mar*cion invented the idea that Christ had two personages — the one of the twelve and the one presented by Paul. The Jesus of the twelve represented the Creator-God of the Old Testament. The Jesus of Paul represented the Good God or the Father of the New Testament. The Antitheses of 144 A.D. reads: 18.The Jewish Christ [of Matthew et al] was designated by the Creator [i.e., the God of the Old Testament] solely to restore the Jewish peo*ple from the Diaspora; but our Christ [present in Paul’s writings] was commissioned by the good God [of the new testament] to liberate all mankind. 19. The Good [God] [of Paul’s Jesus] is good toward all men; the Creator [God of the Jesus of the twelve], however, promises salvation only to those who are obedient to him [i.e., legal*ism]. The Good [God of Paul’s Jesus] redeems those who believe in him, but he does not judge those who are disobedient to him; the Creator [God of the twelve’s Jesus], however, redeems his faithful and judges and punishes the sinners. 29. The Christ [of the Creator God represented by the twelve] promises to the Jews the restora*tion of their former condition by return of their land and, after death, a refuge in Abraham’s bosom in the underworld [i.e., Sheol/hell]. Our Christ [of the Jesus presented by Paul] will establish the Kingdom of God, an eternal and heavenly possession.​ (Source: Dr. Peter M. Head (New Testament Research Fellow, Tyndale House),*The History of the Interpretation of the Apostle Paul (2001).) The Jerusalem church previously replied to anti-Law and faith-alone doctrine by saying Paul was an apostate and did not represent true Christianity. As Professor James Dunn notes: “The most direct heirs of the Jewish-Christian group*ings within earliest Christianity [i.e., the early Jerusalem church] regarded Paul as the great apostate, an arch enemy,” citing Epistula Petri 2.3; Clem. Hom. 17:18-19. (James D. G. Dunn,*The Cambridge Companion to St. Paul (Cambridge University Press, 2003) at 2.) The Jerusalem church’s response is directly reflected in our New Testament. As Augustine noted in 413 A.D. in his treatise Faith and Works, the epistles of James (the first bishop of Jerusalem), Jude (the second bishop of Jerusalem), and Second Peter were specifically written to destroy “faith alone” doctrine as inferred from Paul’s epistles. (See page 523n supra.) Second Peter even said many would fall from their “steadfastness in Christ” by relying upon “difficult to understand” passages in the writings of Paul. These passages were seen as giving a “liberty” that Second Peter said was foreign to the true gospel. (See pages 500-504 supra.)"

Reference ... https://jesuswordsonly.com/books/56-marcionism.html

This war rages on and faith vs. works... Law vs. grace... is officially outed as an old battle that has raged on since Jesus uttered John 6:63 !

My conclusion? Marcion is the only of these three to maintain a career moments veneration for Holy Writ and recognize ALL scripture as good for teaching, reproof and doctrine. What was his secret? Biblical, Dispensational division as Scripture itself prescribes... "time and time" again!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Evil.Eye., enjoyed your post in the Spoiler below, here is some additional insight in the pdf, etc., on the following link...enjoy.

http://gracehistoryproject.blogspot.com/2010/11/lesson-10-patristic-period-formation-of.html?m=1

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12

Spoiler

Thank you. I love your link and will review its material more thoroughly in the short, foreseeable future.

 

[daqq]

This war rages on and faith vs. works... Law vs. grace... is officially outed as an old battle that has raged on since Jesus uttered John 6:63 !

My conclusion? Marcion is the only of these three to maintain a continuative veneration for Holy Writ while recognizing ALL scripture as good for teaching, reproof and doctrine. What was his secret? Biblical, Dispensational division as Scripture itself prescribes... "time and time" again!

Does this make any post biblical scholar suitable for lensing of scripture?

HELL NO... but... The debate isn't new. That is my purpose in posting this... as well as pointing out Augustine inconsistency that joins with Turtullian's.

Good to see you finally admit what has been said to you on several previous occasions, and Dispy's in general, and MADists: which is that such beliefs systems rooted in misunderstandings of the writings of Paul, and those who adhere to such things, are essentially Marcionites with their own pair of invisible modern theological scissors which they use to cut out anything from the "Old Testament God" whom they despise, just as you also do when you replace the "Old Testament God" with Jesus by saying that "Jesus is YHWH", (the ultimate form of "Replacement Theology" as has also been said to you before). One of the reasons Marcion is called a heretic is because he did indeed believe in the "Old Testament God", but said that He is evil, the "Demiurge" who created all things physical and material. He was the most famous of the earliest promoters of genuine "Gnostic Dualism", (a "Good God" and an "Evil God", as you have partially noted), which is precisely what you and yours do by way of your own divisive doctrines that amount to Gnostic Dualism.

 

[daqq]

Sorry, double posted when the forum went down.

 

[daqq]

Evil.Eye., enjoyed your post in the Spoiler below, here is some additional insight in the pdf, etc., on the following link...enjoy.

What happened to your normal canned response? Please pay a little closer attention to what someone else said to you recently, who apparently knows quite well what he speaks of from the scripture, which you sidelined with your same old tired worn out diatribe by belittling the truth from the scripture and calling factual information found in the Word, books "about", and knowledge "about", when in fact he was telling the truth from what is written. Words have meanings, and when it comes to the scripture those words have original meanings, and if those meanings can be changed or subverted then anyone can come along and say that the scripture says anything they want it to say.

On TOL dispensationalism becomes clearly a quarrel against the Gospel of Christ and the prophecies of the coming of that Gospel in the Old Testament.

Paul in I Timothy 6: 20-21 says to avoid the anti-thesis of falsely called knowledge. The thesis is the Gospel of Christ and the anti-thesis is various specific forms of quarreling against that thesis.

Originally Posted by northwye
On I Timothy 6: 20-21, the key part in Greek says "και αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως,or "and anti-thesis of falsely called knowledge."

Do you know how to show the Greek letters as Latin letters of our alphabet?

αντιθεσεις, or anti-thesis, is a technical term in the early Greek philosophy of the διαλεκτική, or dialectic, before the time of Christ. Other Greek words mean opposition such as anthistémi, antidiatithémi, antipolítef̱si̱, or enantío̱si̱.

In other words, your OP is a self-portrait.

Fact of the matter is that until your kind realize your supposed understanding is based in endless books "about" not only read by your kind "into" the Scripture, but parroted by your kind in suceeding books "about" - until your kind finally realize that yours is the "science so falsely called" that the Apostle Paul was encouraging Pastor Timothy to stand against; you will continue to beat against the air much like the Don Quixote you have long continually proven yourself to be on here - self-deceived in your belief that you are on to something you are unjustly being opposed for.

You're a quack dime a dozen.

Yours is "store bought" intellect.

Which has rendered your every post completely useless but to your same "store bought" club.

Put the books away, bookworm.

It is high time your kind do.

Plough through that mess so obviously entrenched in the very heart of your mind with the following...until the following liberates you from your obvious "store bought" self-delusion...

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12

Please read more carefully what is stated in the OP herein above, concerning Marcion, in light of the comments from that other thread which you dismissed out of hand; for it appears that what stares you right in the face, you fail to see because of your own paradigm-mindset:

In Marcion’s book known as the Antitheses, which exists only in fragments quoted by others, we find endorse*ment of everything Pauline, including faith alone. Marcion’s primary antithesis involved faith and law.

Reference ... https://jesuswordsonly.com/books/56-marcionism.html

On I Timothy 6: 20-21, the key part in Greek says "και αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως,or "and anti-thesis of falsely called knowledge."

Do you know how to show the Greek letters as Latin letters of our alphabet?

αντιθεσεις, or anti-thesis, is a technical term in the early Greek philosophy of the διαλεκτική, or dialectic, before the time of Christ. Other Greek words mean opposition such as anthistémi, antidiatithémi, antipolítef̱si̱, or enantío̱si̱.

What Northwye said is absolutely true, and those are simple facts, not from books and knowledge "about", but from actual definitions of words found within the scripture itself, (and those definitions come by means of how the words are employed within the context of scripture). And, if one investigates closely enough, Paul either utterly refutes Marcion even before Marcion ever existed, or, at least some portions of the writings of Paul came at a later date than most assume, and such was done primarily so as to refute Marcion.

 

[daqq]

Evil.Eye., enjoyed your post in the Spoiler below, here is some additional insight in the pdf, etc., on the following link...enjoy.

http://gracehistoryproject.blogspot.com/2010/11/lesson-10-patristic-period-formation-of.html?m=1

By the way, concerning your link with all of its Marcion links, and books "ABOUT", and knowledge "ABOUT", and PDF's "ABOUT" The Real Book: please re-read your own words in your above posted comments to Northwye as they seem to apply more to you than to whom you spoke them. :chuckle:

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Good to see you finally admit what has been said to you on several previous occasions, and Dispy's in general, and MADists: which is that such beliefs systems rooted in misunderstandings of the writings of Paul, and those who adhere to such things, are essentially Marcionites with their own pair of invisible modern theological scissors which they use to cut out anything from the "Old Testament God" whom they despise, just as you also do when you replace the "Old Testament God" with Jesus by saying that "Jesus is YHWH", (the ultimate form of "Replacement Theology" as has also been said to you before). One of the reasons Marcion is called a heretic is because he did indeed believe in the "Old Testament God", but said that He is evil, the "Demiurge" who created all things physical and material. He was the most famous of the earliest promoters of genuine "Gnostic Dualism", (a "Good God" and an "Evil God", as you have partially noted), which is precisely what you and yours do by way of your own divisive doctrines that amount to Gnostic Dualism.

Daqq,

This excerpt that I selected for OP inclusion is "Unbiased"... but... it shows that a "ship builder" named... "Marcion"... understood the dispensational thrust of the 66 books. More specifically... Marcion did pretty well for a man without the "internet" like we have and umpteen manuscripts and fragments. He may have been confused by the difference between the Pre-Christ Writings and the Post-Christ Writings... but He understood that there was a Pauline revelation to be found.

Much of the Christian world that is "Legalistic"... (Ahem... that would be you).. rejects Paul. You choose to twist his writings to your ideas, but ... the point here is that the "Reckoning of the differences" must be found in recognizing "Literal Israel" of National and Biological origin and how Jesus worked through Paul to dispense the "Grace Gospel" to us Goy!

Nice try to twist the OP's Intention... but... no Ciggy..., Iggy!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

What happened to your normal canned response? Please pay a little closer attention to what someone else said to you recently, who apparently knows quite well what he speaks of from the scripture, which you sidelined with your same old tired worn out diatribe by belittling the truth from the scripture and calling factual information found in the Word, books "about", and knowledge "about", when in fact he was telling the truth from what is written. Words have meanings, and when it comes to the scripture those words have original meanings, and if those meanings can be changed or subverted then anyone can come along and say that the scripture says anything they want it to say.





Please read more carefully what is stated in the OP herein above, concerning Marcion, in light of the comments from that other thread which you dismissed out of hand; for it appears that what stares you right in the face, you fail to see because of your own paradigm-mindset:





What Northwye said is absolutely true, and those are simple facts, not from books and knowledge "about", but from actual definitions of words found within the scripture itself, (and those definitions come by means of how the words are employed within the context of scripture). And, if one investigates closely enough, Paul either utterly refutes Marcion even before Marcion ever existed, or, at least some portions of the writings of Paul came at a later date than most assume, and such was done primarily so as to refute Marcion.

By the way, concerning your link with all of its Marcion links, and books "ABOUT", and knowledge "ABOUT", and PDF's "ABOUT" The Real Book: please re-read your own words in your above posted comments to Northwye as they seem to apply more to you than to whom you spoke them. :chuckle:

[MENTION=16688]Danoh[/MENTION] and I trade between agreeing and disagreeing... but we "KNOW" "WHO" "HE" is... and thus... I'm going to point out that your suport of "Northwye" is rooted in your anti-zionist stance.

But... "Spoiler Alert"...

Joel 2:27 You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God and there is none else. And my people shall never again be put to shame.

At least Marcion understood GRACE and what "He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”... meant!

You're such a Doffen Burgner!!! :doh:

 

[jsanford108]

Allow me to mark two of these theologians stances with their attribution of error towards Paul or Peter, James and Jude.

Turtullian has two major theological marks agains him...

1. He is the source of the TRIAD "Trinity" and removed the UNE from Triune. Turtullian's Trinity is a distinct Tri-Ad of 3 God's that act as one and he is the source of the "version" of the Trinity that is Semi-Arian in it's over distinction of the ONE that is manifest in 3. The UNE aspect or One... or "Unified Substance" of God is shattered by Turtullian's pagan take on the "Actual" TriUnity" of God! Turtullan must have 1 lined 1 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Timothy 3:16 from his collection of bible books.

2. Turtullian railed against Paul and called him apostate to attempt to destroy Marcion's "faith alone" exegesis.
​

Augustine has 2 major strikes against him.

1. Augustine is responsible for offloading duality onto God, via his original sin doctrine. I have written fairly extensively on this here... and labeled Augustine's take... "Classical Original Sin"... which is certainly opposed to "Biblical Original Sin".

2. Augustine accused James, Jude and Peter of undermining Paul and falsely imposing legalism on the pure gospel. Again... note that as Turtullian... Augustine shelves Dispensational understanding and chooses to place authors of canon in "error"... while simultaneously... "yet unknowingly" placing God in error if 2 Timothy 3:16 is to be believed and Holy "Writ" Canon is Divine.​

Now for the quoted article and Marcion...

144 AD... and familiar Dispensational Biblical discussion via Marcion... a man now ushered into the halls of "Proposed Heresy"... But... what did he specifically have to say? What work validates Paul's works and supports their presence in Canon?

Without further ado, I give you a quoted article that has a familiar answer and Dispensational thrust... while carrying biases that allow its content to be read as impartial to my point...

"Books... Marcionism-The Forgotten Crisis Overview/Introduction An important but frequently forgotten episode in the early church was the movement founded by Marcion near 144 A.D. It is known as Marcionism. It is important because it explains the two gospels in the current New Testament and why they were tolerated. Marcionism was a split in the church that almost divided Christianity in two. Marcion taught only Paul had the correct gospel of Jesus, i.e., faith alone, but the twelve apostles presented a Jesus who supposedly had a superceded gospel that did not apply to Gentiles. Marcion said the twelve taught a gospel of Law where disobedience caused loss of salvation, especially found in Matthew's Gospel. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * A prominent leader of early orthodox Christianity was Tertullian. In 207 A.D. Tertullian in Against Marcion rebutted Marcion by attacking Paul. He questioned whether Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ, saying a self-serving claim, as Paul made of being an apostle of Jesus, does not suffice. Tertullian suggested Paul was a false prophet. He also called Paul the "apostle of the heretics." See immediately below, Marcionism - Excerpt from JWOS] * Marcionism -- Excerpt from Jesus Words on Salvation at pp 578 et seq. Importance of Protestants Coming to Grips with the Early Heretic Marcion’s Cheap Grace Doctrine Has the last four hundred years been a waste? Has the descent into cheap grace at odds with Jesus’ doctrine all this time been an unprecedented error? No. This has been a valu*able period of cleansing of doctrinal errors. However, our response to those errors ended up in over-reaction. We need to come back to Jesus. It is that simple. We can take encour*agement from the fact that this very same error happened once before. Let’s see how the early church escaped, and per*haps we can simply repeat the measures taken back then. Most Protestants are utterly unaware that Paulinism, in particular faith alone doctrine, previously threatened to overwhelm Jesus’ salvation doctrine and destroy it. In 144 A.D., there arose a ship-builder from Pontus named Marcion. He founded a church system that rivaled in numbers and influence that of the orthodox Christian church. By 150 A.D., Justin wrote that Marcionites had expanded “to the uttermost bounds of the earth.” [Justin, Apology 1.26.]*It required three hundred years for the orthodox church to eventually rout out the heresy of Marcion. Marcion was not battling the Roman Catholic church. It did not yet exist. Instead, there was a large orthodox church led from Jerusalem. The Roman bishop was just one bishop among many throughout the Mediterranean. Even if Peter was in Rome at one point, there was no effort to exercise superiority from Rome until many centuries later. What happened is that Marcion declared in 144 A.D. that Paul alone was the true apostle for the era of grace; the twelve apostles, in particular their gospel of Matthew, were tainted by legalism; the Jesus of the twelve belonged to the God of the Old Testament; and the Jesus of Paul represented the son of a loving Father who now accepted us by faith alone. In Marcion’s book known as the Antitheses, which exists only in fragments quoted by others, we find endorse*ment of everything Pauline, including faith alone. Marcion’s primary antithesis involved faith and law. On one hand, there was the Law given Moses, which the apostolic twelve endorsed in Matthew’s gospel. On the other hand, there was the faith alone doctrine of Paul. To solve this antithesis, Mar*cion invented the idea that Christ had two personages — the one of the twelve and the one presented by Paul. The Jesus of the twelve represented the Creator-God of the Old Testament. The Jesus of Paul represented the Good God or the Father of the New Testament. The Antitheses of 144 A.D. reads: 18.The Jewish Christ [of Matthew et al] was designated by the Creator [i.e., the God of the Old Testament] solely to restore the Jewish peo*ple from the Diaspora; but our Christ [present in Paul’s writings] was commissioned by the good God [of the new testament] to liberate all mankind. 19. The Good [God] [of Paul’s Jesus] is good toward all men; the Creator [God of the Jesus of the twelve], however, promises salvation only to those who are obedient to him [i.e., legal*ism]. The Good [God of Paul’s Jesus] redeems those who believe in him, but he does not judge those who are disobedient to him; the Creator [God of the twelve’s Jesus], however, redeems his faithful and judges and punishes the sinners. 29. The Christ [of the Creator God represented by the twelve] promises to the Jews the restora*tion of their former condition by return of their land and, after death, a refuge in Abraham’s bosom in the underworld [i.e., Sheol/hell]. Our Christ [of the Jesus presented by Paul] will establish the Kingdom of God, an eternal and heavenly possession.​ (Source: Dr. Peter M. Head (New Testament Research Fellow, Tyndale House),*The History of the Interpretation of the Apostle Paul (2001).) The Jerusalem church previously replied to anti-Law and faith-alone doctrine by saying Paul was an apostate and did not represent true Christianity. As Professor James Dunn notes: “The most direct heirs of the Jewish-Christian group*ings within earliest Christianity [i.e., the early Jerusalem church] regarded Paul as the great apostate, an arch enemy,” citing Epistula Petri 2.3; Clem. Hom. 17:18-19. (James D. G. Dunn,*The Cambridge Companion to St. Paul (Cambridge University Press, 2003) at 2.) The Jerusalem church’s response is directly reflected in our New Testament. As Augustine noted in 413 A.D. in his treatise Faith and Works, the epistles of James (the first bishop of Jerusalem), Jude (the second bishop of Jerusalem), and Second Peter were specifically written to destroy “faith alone” doctrine as inferred from Paul’s epistles. (See page 523n supra.) Second Peter even said many would fall from their “steadfastness in Christ” by relying upon “difficult to understand” passages in the writings of Paul. These passages were seen as giving a “liberty” that Second Peter said was foreign to the true gospel. (See pages 500-504 supra.)"

Reference ... https://jesuswordsonly.com/books/56-marcionism.html

This war rages on and faith vs. works... Law vs. grace... is officially outed as an old battle that has raged on since Jesus uttered John 6:63 !

My conclusion? Marcion is the only of these three to maintain a continuative veneration for Holy Writ while recognizing ALL scripture as good for teaching, reproof and doctrine. What was his secret? Biblical, Dispensational division as Scripture itself prescribes... "time and time" again!

Does this make any post biblical scholar suitable for lensing of scripture?

HELL NO... but... The debate isn't new. That is my purpose in posting this... as well as pointing out Augustine inconsistency that joins with Turtullian's.

Evil Eye,
Hello friend. I always enjoy reading your posts. As I told Lon in your other thread, you and he are two of my favorite posters on TOL. Mainly because you both utilize logic and intellect.

Now, there are two or three issues that I came across while reviewing the above quote. The first, is your marks against Augustine are attributed to things he said before he became Catholic. Just some historical context. So yes, he would be in disagreement with James, Paul, etc.

Second, "2. Turtullian railed against Paul and called him apostate to attempt to destroy Marcion's "faith alone" exegesis.": Tertullian did attack the "faith alone" doctrine of Marcion, yet that was not an attack on Paul. Marcion is actually performing eisegesis, rather than exegesis. As I have stated in many threads, there is no "faith alone" found in Scripture, except James 2, where he says "not by faith alone." The common verse where "faith alone" is argued, Romans 5, is actually saying that our faith is a grace of God.

In the article, it also claims that there was no Catholic Church at the time of Marcion, which is a historical falsehood. The Catholic Church at the time of Marcion, had had approximately 15 popes if memory serves.

Just throwing out my cent's worth.

Best wishes, Evil Eye.

 

[Danoh]

By the way, concerning your link with all of its Marcion links, and books "ABOUT", and knowledge "ABOUT", and PDF's "ABOUT" The Real Book: please re-read your own words in your above posted comments to Northwye as they seem to apply more to you than to whom you spoke them. :chuckle:

daqq man - hope all is well for you.

Wish even more were the case :chuckle:

Anyway, I have often addressed what it is exactly I am referring to by books "about" (as does the guy who's link, study, etc., I posted to Evil.Eye).

Recent case in point: my reply to Lon, in the following link.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?126170-How-the-Gospel-Works/page44&p=5078590#post5078590

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12

 

[Danoh]

Sorry, double posted when the forum went down.

Tell ya what - apologize for all your posts on this thread thus far, and we'll consider your apology heartfelt :chuckle:

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Evil Eye,
Hello friend. I always enjoy reading your posts. As I told Lon in your other thread, you and he are two of my favorite posters on TOL. Mainly because you both utilize logic and intellect.

Right back at you JSan!

Now, there are two or three issues that I came across while reviewing the above quote. The first, is your marks against Augustine are attributed to things he said before he became Catholic. Just some historical context. So yes, he would be in disagreement with James, Paul, etc.

Fair enough. I appreciate the clarification.

Second, "2. Turtullian railed against Paul and called him apostate to attempt to destroy Marcion's "faith alone" exegesis.": Tertullian did attack the "faith alone" doctrine of Marcion, yet that was not an attack on Paul. Marcion is actually performing eisegesis, rather than exegesis. As I have stated in many threads, there is no "faith alone" found in Scripture, except James 2, where he says "not by faith alone." The common verse where "faith alone" is argued, Romans 5, is actually saying that our faith is a grace of God.

I am certain you know that I am rabidly faith alone... yet... I understand you perspective and see that you place all of your eggs in Jesus Christ, while seeing things from a different perspective than myself... and yet... I know we both agree on John 5:39 and that is good enough to bring me peace.

I, again, appreciate the clarification.

In the article, it also claims that there was no Catholic Church at the time of Marcion, which is a historical falsehood. The Catholic Church at the time of Marcion, had had approximately 15 popes if memory serves.

I am certain that it's no secret that I am one of God's bastard children. I count myself neither Catholic or Protestant, but recognize the Universal Claim of Jesus Christ to His Invisible body of hyphenated and de-hyphenated believers that span the globe.

The matter boils down to the understanding of "on this rock" and I know that you elevate Jesus above the pomp, circumstance, brick and mortar... thus... again... this point is moot to me. I again... appreciate your perspective clarification... on this matter.

Just throwing out my cent's worth.

Best wishes, Evil Eye.

Feel free to throw in your 10 bucks next time. I always enjoy dialogue with you, Jsanford108.

- [MENTION=18375]Evil.Eye.<(I)>[/MENTION]

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Tell ya what - apologize for all your posts on this thread thus far, and we'll consider your apology heartfelt :chuckle:

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12

Good luck with that.

:chuckle: :e4e:

But seriously... I'm at the place where I am at peace with the war between Daqq and I. It's good for my soul and keeps me frosty. : )

 

[jsanford108]

I do also want to applaud your research on Tertullian. While I agree with him on several aspects, I do think that he is way off on the Trinity. An excellent analysis on your part.

And a slight disagreement on issues, such as "faith alone," does not bother me. I have no qualms about calling you a brother in Christ. We agree on all the fundamentals of Christianity, in my opinion. Keep up the good work, friend.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[daqq]

Tell ya what - apologize for all your posts on this thread thus far, and we'll consider your apology heartfelt :chuckle:

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12

Ah yes, hilarious Danoh, but how about switching shoes for a moment: if I was the one promoting Marcion the Gnostic Dualist heretic who blasphemed the Father by calling Him an evil Demiruge, and I chose to do so right here in ECT where it surely does not belong, in arrogant disregard for what is right: should everyone be expecting you to apologize for objecting to my promotion of a Gnostic Dualist heretic who even went so far as to cut out all of the O/T scripture quotations from the writings of Paul?

Cool, I do not believe that garbage spewed by Marcion but I do happen to believe many things from the scriptures which you and yours would like to forget and do not believe even belong within your privately held versions of "Christianity", much less here in your ECT for heretics only board, (lol), so I guess it is perfectly okay to start posting threads on anything anyone wants to here in ECT: for if promoting Marcion is just fine and dandy then this really is not even a true Christian forum. I really do not care either way, since it is a privately held board that has a right to any bias the ownership so chooses, and I actually do appreciate the opportunity given us all to post here, but I also am quite happy to make the points herein, AGAIN, which are now hopefully louder and even clearer, and I certainly will not be apologizing for exposing closet Marcionites who hate the "Old Testament God" and seek to replace Him with their own fabricated version of Jesus. Toodle-oo...

 

[Danoh]

Ah yes, hilarious Danoh, but how about switching shoes for a moment: if I was the one promoting Marcion the Gnostic Dualist heretic who blasphemed the Father by calling Him an evil Demiruge, and I chose to do so right here in ECT where it surely does not belong, in arrogant disregard for what is right: should everyone be expecting you to apologize for objecting to my promotion of a Gnostic Dualist heretic who even went so far as to cut out all of the O/T scripture quotations from the writings of Paul?

Cool, I do not believe that garbage spewed by Marcion but I do happen to believe many things from the scriptures which you and yours would like to forget and do not believe even belong within your privately held versions of "Christianity", much less here in your ECT for heretics only board, (lol), so I guess it is perfectly okay to start posting threads on anything anyone wants to here in ECT: for if promoting Marcion is just fine and dandy then this really is not even a true Christian forum. I really do not care either way, since it is a privately held board that has a right to any bias the ownership so chooses, and I actually do appreciate the opportunity given us all to post here, but I also am quite happy to make the points herein, AGAIN, which are now hopefully louder and even clearer, and I certainly will not be apologizing for exposing closet Marcionites who hate the "Old Testament God" and seek to replace Him with their own fabricated version of Jesus. Toodle-oo...

John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

You have me confused with someone else.

I have always viewed Marcion as someone who appears to have seen some things soundly, while at the same time appearing to have been way, way, way off on other things.

But I am also very well aware of the fact of the tendency of men throughout history to misrepresent the views of those they oppose, and the fact of the matter is that men like Marcion ended up on the losing end to the endless misrepresentations of the victors of their time.

And Marcion was not the first to end up on the losing end of what the masses conclude.

Your very nation is an evidence of this.

To this very day, your majority deny their Prophesied Christ had been that Jesus of the 1st Century, see the above quoted passage.

While you yourself appear to fit like a glove within the following description...

2 Timothy 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

In short, you'll have to deal with the fact of how often the victor has so maligned and misrepresented the losing end.

Worse, how often those who OVER rely on books "about" for their "reasoning" end up just buying into what they read as is.

Ya might wanna think on this some, daqq man.

:think:

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12

 

[daqq]

Daqq,

This excerpt that I selected for OP inclusion is "Unbiased"... but... it shows that a "ship builder" named... "Marcion"... understood the dispensational thrust of the 66 books. More specifically... Marcion did pretty well for a man without the "internet" like we have and umpteen manuscripts and fragments. He may have been confused by the difference between the Pre-Christ Writings and the Post-Christ Writings... but He understood that there was a Pauline revelation to be found.

Much of the Christian world that is "Legalistic"... (Ahem... that would be you).. rejects Paul. You choose to twist his writings to your ideas, but ... the point here is that the "Reckoning of the differences" must be found in recognizing "Literal Israel" of National and Biological origin and how Jesus worked through Paul to dispense the "Grace Gospel" to us Goy!

Nice try to twist the OP's Intention... but... no Ciggy..., Iggy!

Marcion understood a lot more than you apparently give him credit for. But aside from that you are bearing false witness again. I do not reject Paul, I am not a legalist, and I do not twist the writings of Paul because he plainly tells me that he teaches the commandments of Messiah and I know that Messiah expounds the Torah. The reason you perceive me as being and doing all those things is because you yourself reject the Torah and the Testimony of the Messiah in Gospel accounts as applying to yourself. Therefore you have a perverted view of all the writings of Paul because you have used them to concoct another gospel, (which is no gospel at all), and when someone else disagrees with your perverted gospel you call them the perverters of truth simply because you imagine yourself to be the one with the truth. Too bad your version of truth must cut out the "Old Testament" while mine does not; too bad for you, that is, because it proves that you are the one in error. Moreover I do not run around calling people "goy", and if you insist that I do, then please quote the place where I have done so. The word goy is the same as the Greek word ethnos, and has at least four typical meanings; nations, gentiles, heathen, races, and sometimes even simply "peoples". Moreover why would I have any need to do so anyways? even concerning you? when out of one side of your mouth you claim to be Jewish, and yet you side with the things written in Paul which you imagine to only concern the "Gentiles", and in your doctrine you imagine that you get to remain a "Gentile" and never be converted into the commonwealth of the all Israel of the Father. When you imagine that you get to stay a "Gentile" it really is the same as saying that you get to remain a Canaanite in the house of Elohim, which is an utter violation of the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, and that you do because you do not understand the supernal implications of such things. The Master refutes your doctrine, in Mat 15:22-28, which reveals that the "Canaanite" woman of Tyre was forced to change her own mindset, and be willing to become grafted into Israel by faith, and she was willing to do so, and no doubt she was eventually grafted in, and was no more a "Canaanite". That passage even fulfills prophecy, (from Isa 23:17,18), and these things can be understood from the book of Acts, when Paul lands at Tyre and finds disciples there, (Isa 23:17,18, Mat 15:22, Acts 21:3-7, Zec 14:21). It is a terrible idea of yours to go around judging what is in other peoples hearts and minds when such things do not come forth from their mouths, for that again, is the only way that you can play judge if you wish to do so, that is, by what comes forth from the mouth, (Mat 15:18-22, the same passage which includes the woman of Canaan from the coasts of Tyre). You judge me as having things in my heart and mind which I have neither said nor written, and therefore, you are playing heart and mind-reader, like a demi-god, and judging motive without any evidence from what I have said or written anywhere here in these forums. You are just a slanderer and false accuser seeking to save your own skin and justify yourself before men; and that judgment is made by your very own words, statements, and deeds, which you do continually to supposedly defend your doctrine. Do you think bearing false witness is a good way to defend your faith? Apparently you and many others believe that bearing false witness and slandering people is a good way to defend what you believe. Tisk, tisk, I suppose Marcion would be proud of you if he was not dead.

 

[daqq]

By the way, EE, I saw where you recently quoted the words from a song by Kanye West in support of your doctrine, here. So apparently, according to you, it is okay to quote and use the Gnostic Dualist, Marcion the heretic, and it is okay to quote and use modern Illuminati-inspired rap stars, like Kanye West, "but do not quote the Torah in support of doctrine because no doubt such a one is a legalist!" I must say that is ludicrous, (and, no, I do not mean the rapper, lol).

 

[daqq]

John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

You have me confused with someone else.

I have always viewed Marcion as someone who appears to have seen some things soundly, while at the same time appearing to have been way, way, way off on other things.

But I am also very well aware of the fact of the tendency of men throughout history to misrepresent the views of those they oppose, and the fact of the matter is that men like Marcion ended up on the losing end to the endless misrepresentations of the victors of their time.

And Marcion was not the first to end up on the losing end of what the masses conclude.

Your very nation is an evidence of this.

To this very day, your majority deny their Prophesied Christ had been that Jesus of the 1st Century, see the above quoted passage.

While you yourself appear to fit like a glove within the following description...

2 Timothy 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

In short, you'll have to deal with the fact of how often the victor has so maligned and misrepresented the losing end.

Worse, how often those who OVER rely on books "about" for their "reasoning" end up just buying into what they read as is.

Ya might wanna think on this some, daqq man.

:think:

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12

My judgment was based on your own words which came forth from your own mouth and fingertips. Why do you suppose I felt it necessary to post your words here in this thread? You also mistake my nation for not understanding the difference between modern "Jews" and my nation, (Yhudim and Yhωdim, but I do not expect you to know what those mean anyways, for you are gazing at the wrong tree(s)). As for Asia, you also appear not to even know what that means. Do you suppose Paul went into the badlands of Anatolia and started whole new congregations where in some places there were not even any Yhudim or synagogues until the third century, where only Latin was spoken, where only warring Celt tribes existed in the time you suppose his writings were produced? Can you show in any way that Paul actually wrote highly sophisticated theological Greek treatises and proverbial masterpieces and then sent them to people who only spoke Latin?

I am not rejecting Paul, or his writings, or the timing, but what I am telling you is that you do not understand what you read because you see it all as physical, historical, and only concerning geographic locations which you see on maps. Anatolia is actually Anatole, not the modern nation of Turkey, (which was called Anatolia), and pertains to the eastern half of Israel, from the Galilees all the way down to the Salt Sea on the eastern side beyond the Jordan river. Asia is Acia, (and is even prophesied and spoken against in 4Ezra), and especially the twin-cities of the Galilees which Asa king of Yhudah took back from Baasha king of Yisrael with the help of Ben-Hadad, (see for example 2Chr 16:3,4). Likewise on the west coast of Israel are many more cities from the journeys of Paul, ancient names, but you and yours prefer to read them as being in Anatolia-Asia and Macedonia-Greece on your physical maps of the Roman world: they are not, but they are twin cities of the gentiles within the nation of Israel, (and every synagogue Paul went to was therefore divided between believers and non-believers). Paul is being used to fulfill prophecies which most do not even realize are prophecies to begin with because of the veil over the heart, mind, and eyes, when reading what they consider to be the "abolished Old Covenant".