Talk to the guy who tried to do something
- Thread starter Jefferson
- Start date
- Status
JoyfulRook
New member
:noid:Zakath said:
Oh, that one. I used to subscribe to that (along with Dispensationalism in Transition, Biblical Economics, Biblical Chronology, and everything else he put out that I could get my hands on). He's still sending that out via snail mail? I thought he moved everying to email a long time ago.granite1010 said:
Okay, sure. Thanks. I just called I.C.E.'s number at freebooks.com and the person who answered told me they don't have an emailed newsletter. Maybe I just got the wrong employee on the other end of the line. Just click on my name and then click "Send email to Jefferson." Thanks again.granite1010 said:No, no, this is emailed too. He also includes links to the articles he writes on Rockwell's website, too. Like I said, you want me to forward this over, gimme an address.
Are you implying that you think McBurney gained rewards by his actions?julie21 said:
I don't have anything against judgmentalism. We are commanded in the Bible to judge. I just think your judgment is faulty.
Just trying to help you. When I find a believer who is unaware of differing degrees of heavenly rewards I feel like I am giving them a Christmas present by informing them of this wonderful opportunity.
Ask and ye shall receive. From post #68:
"Surely if you wanted to really help her, get water to her, you would have it in a hidden flask on your body and try to find an undercover way to get into the hospital, sneakily as if in warfare. Dress as a nurse, Doctor, cleaner, whatever or sneak into the Hospital somehow, away from the Police cordoned area." (emphasis on the word "really," mine)
An accurate paraphrase would be, "Surely if you wanted a better way to help her..."
From post #142:
"I read DBC as a lot of people believing, or being swept along into doing God's works the way that Mr Enyart and his pals decree....if you aren't with them, well, you must be against them." (empasis on the word "decree" mine) A decree is not an opinion. It's a command.
By the way, what's so horrible about getting publicity for your cause? Should churches never advertise in the Yellow Pages phone book? Should no pastor have his own show on the radio?
Originally Posted by Rimi:
"Before I get to my main point I first need clarification on this sentence of yours. Were you serious about this? Are you actually saying that you think it would have been God-honoring for Christians to become vigilantes and act like some right-wing militias that are around? My guess is that you don't actually believe this. I'm right, aren't I?"
My defintion of a prayer closet Christian is someone who's only efforts for God's glory is his prayer closet. These people don't witness to their unsaved family members. They don't witness to their co-workers. They don't stand up for any Christian causes. Nothing. Another name I have for them is Secret Service Christians because no one knows that person even is a Christian. Note: I'm not talking about shut-ins who are not able to get out and do things publicly for Christ. I'm talking about those who are able to but who refuse to. About those people I wrote: "It encourages other Christians that they can be bold too instead of timidly living in their "prayer closets."
Not at all. His intentions were to have 300 people walk nonviolently with him to the hospice which would have overwhelmed the police. That's not symbolic. What I said was that even if what he did was symbolic (and it wasn't) I still would not have a problem with it.
Since that prior question has now been answered, please answer mine:
"Before I get to my main point I first need clarification on this sentence of yours. Were you serious about this? Are you actually saying that you think it would have been God-honoring for Christians to become vigilantes and act like some right-wing militias that are around? My guess is that you don't actually believe this. I'm right, aren't I?"
[
Well, looky, looky, we agree on those Christian types, if not the name. Cool. I am pretty up to the point of puking with Christians with no pulse. But I have to disagree that Doug was going to motivate the more timid (not dead) Christians. There were plenty of people already at the hospice and some had already been arrested. There was nothing new here.
30 some people had already been arrested, for crying out loud. And he believed he was going to get 300 more??? Please. Look, Jefferson, when I first heard about this I was excited and emailed a bunch of friends. Even included a pic I found of him being carted off. You go, Doug! Yep, that's my church! But upon hearing him on BEL and reading more about it, I could only come to the conclusion that this was a symbolic thing, of very little use to Terri and her family at this stage. They were under enormous stress and anguish already and this stunt didn't help them or Terri. I struggled with that aspect of it. It kept me from going to a getogether a local church was doing . . . peacefully walking in front of the city hall and handing out water. And this helps Terri how??? This is "doing something"?? She was dead the next morning. Then you claimed it was something more. That's simply not true. Any moron could see he was not going to get water to Terri, certainly without 300 people to assist. I'm trusting Doug isn't a moron, yet he walked right up anyway. Symbolic.
I. Never. Said. That. I believe you're overreacting to a phrase I used, "storm the Bastille"? It's the only thing I can find where you might have gotten then. Prior to my using that phrase, you'd been talking about the intended possibility of 300 people walking into this facilitywith water, which from aerials I'd seen, it wasn't very big. So, I used it as a euphemism. I think you're just overreacting to that phrase. I've not given an opinion one way or the other as to the use of violence and I'm not giving it now. Call it a miscommunication on both our parts? So, what's your main point?
Well, looky, looky, we agree on those Christian types, if not the name. Cool. I am pretty up to the point of puking with Christians with no pulse. But I have to disagree that Doug was going to motivate the more timid (not dead) Christians. There were plenty of people already at the hospice and some had already been arrested. There was nothing new here.
30 some people had already been arrested, for crying out loud. And he believed he was going to get 300 more??? Please. Look, Jefferson, when I first heard about this I was excited and emailed a bunch of friends. Even included a pic I found of him being carted off. You go, Doug! Yep, that's my church! But upon hearing him on BEL and reading more about it, I could only come to the conclusion that this was a symbolic thing, of very little use to Terri and her family at this stage. They were under enormous stress and anguish already and this stunt didn't help them or Terri. I struggled with that aspect of it. It kept me from going to a getogether a local church was doing . . . peacefully walking in front of the city hall and handing out water. And this helps Terri how??? This is "doing something"?? She was dead the next morning. Then you claimed it was something more. That's simply not true. Any moron could see he was not going to get water to Terri, certainly without 300 people to assist. I'm trusting Doug isn't a moron, yet he walked right up anyway. Symbolic.
I. Never. Said. That. I believe you're overreacting to a phrase I used, "storm the Bastille"? It's the only thing I can find where you might have gotten then. Prior to my using that phrase, you'd been talking about the intended possibility of 300 people walking into this facilitywith water, which from aerials I'd seen, it wasn't very big. So, I used it as a euphemism. I think you're just overreacting to that phrase. I've not given an opinion one way or the other as to the use of violence and I'm not giving it now. Call it a miscommunication on both our parts? So, what's your main point?
So what? Other people have protested abortion before. Does that mean that no one else should, just because it would be "nothing new here?"Rimi said:
Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that what Doug did was 100 percent symbolic. Since you have previously stated that you don't have a problem with symbolism why do you have a problem with what Doug did?
This issue is bigger than the wishes of Terri's family. It's even bigger than the wishes of Terri herself. Terri's family stated that the police were only doing their job and that no one should have called them Nazis. Well, they were wrong about that and the people who ignored their wishes and continued to call the police Nazis did the right thing. The main issue is that this case could be the Roe v. Wade of the euthanasia movement. Therefore, for pro-lifers to just go along with every incorrect view that Terri's family had would have been very foolish. Thank God there were some there who refused to do that.
I still need a little bit more clarification from you before I make it because I'm still a little confused as to where you are coming from. Since you have previously stated that you don't have a problem with symbolism why do you have a problem with what Doug did? What is so different about Doug's (so called) symbolic act as compared to other symbolic acts that you have no problem with?
I'm guessing it has something to do with how Doug made YOU look. I conclude this based on the following quotes from you in this thread:
This goes back to my previous post about Christians worshipping the false god of Public Acceptance. It seems to me that you are very angry with Doug for sinning against this false god. Compare your attitude with this quote from Bob Enyart from this Friday's show (April 8th): "I'd rather have the bizzerk, embarrassing people crying out, "Don't kill the innocent" than all these wonderfully respectable pew-sitters."
Do you disagree with that quote from Bob?
Orginally quoted by Jefferson
Does Doug get arrested at every abortion mill he protests? Does he do this every time? Does he attempt to enter and bring a mother trying to kill her child a model of a developing baby?
It was symbolic since he as much as said so. The problem in this case was timing. Had he done this in the beginning it might have been to better effect. It would have made more sense. As it was, there were already protesters present. There had already been arrests made. There was public outcry. You once mentioned that Doug's actions were serious enough to get police and media involved. So too with the demonstrations being serious enough to get politicians involved (however half-heartedly since THEY are truly the ones worried about acceptance). And no one can possibly believe, not even Doug, that he was going to plainly and obviously walk past the nazi guard to get Terri water.
I agree with you that this was bigger than just Terri and her family. I've already said that here. And there were many who didn't agree with the Schindlers, but managed to keep their cool and keep focused on Terri and pressing politicians.
See above. Last time you needed clarification it was because you thought I wanted people to riot or something? Now you need more clarification over something we've already gone over. Just make your "main point" if you have one.
So you are saying that those who were present in DC, Atlanta and the Hospice were all worshipping the false god of Public Acceptance?? All those who across the nation who repeatedly emailed and called their representatives and the White House and Gov. Bush's office -- all of them worshipped at the alter of Public Acceptance?? Most were Christians, tho not all (did you read about disabled fomo who was protesting?). Many times we wondered how they could keep their composure, and keep thinking of ways to press authorities without just losing it. But they managed. We managed. And because of these "idol worshippers", Terri's plight was heard the world over. Hardly were we going for acceptance, Jefferson, but merely to save Terri's life.
Do I concern myself with how Christians make me look? You bet I do. Had a conversation with a woman at church once and I asked her why she believed the Bible. She said she believed it because she trusted God. Now, that's a great answer among Christians, but not so great when out in the world. I asked her if this is what she said when talking with an unbeliever who might ask this and she said yes. DOH! When an unbeliever hears something like that, it makes ALL of us look like ninnies. Ergo, how we present ourselves, our Savior and our faith in Him is under scrutiny. They don't have to accept Christ. They don't have to accept the truth of the Gospel. They don't have to accept US. But it had better not be because of us. To be hated because of Christ is one thing. To be hated because of other Christians is another thing entirely.
How often has Bob rebuked Christians for saying dopey things or doing dopey things? And why is that? Because he knows that Christians must be smarter, levelheaded. We Christians have a duty to be wise as serpents and to not behave stupidly or foolishly or presumptuously. It hurt to hear Doug compared to the guy at Olympics who impeded the leader in a race, causing him to come in 3rd or something, all in the name of Chrisitianity. Was this guy a Christian, hope not. Still the comparison was made. Silly? Sure, because this is NOT the same situation, but that's the comparison that was made! Still, I understand Bob's loyalty to his friend. I don't knock that. That was my initial reaction to someone I tend to like.
Jefferson, please disavow youself of accusing me of wanting public approval. If I were that way, I wouldn't even be a Christian. I've been rejected by most family and many friends, actually. I've even been rejected by those who also call themselves Christians when I discuss what I've learned specifically from Bob (how dare I speak up and know what's actually in the bible!!!). I could "go along to get along" but I haven't and I won't. Neither did those Christians who stood up for Terri "go along to get along". Doug needed to stand firm with them, showing a united front in all that confusion and emotion. Instead, he garnered attention that took away from Terri and was unseemly in light of the strength showed by those Christians already on the scene. It might have galvanized those Christians there, but they were in the most emotional place to be in the first place so it wouldn't take much, but it didn't do much for Christians physically removed.
Does Doug get arrested at every abortion mill he protests? Does he do this every time? Does he attempt to enter and bring a mother trying to kill her child a model of a developing baby?
It was symbolic since he as much as said so. The problem in this case was timing. Had he done this in the beginning it might have been to better effect. It would have made more sense. As it was, there were already protesters present. There had already been arrests made. There was public outcry. You once mentioned that Doug's actions were serious enough to get police and media involved. So too with the demonstrations being serious enough to get politicians involved (however half-heartedly since THEY are truly the ones worried about acceptance). And no one can possibly believe, not even Doug, that he was going to plainly and obviously walk past the nazi guard to get Terri water.
I agree with you that this was bigger than just Terri and her family. I've already said that here. And there were many who didn't agree with the Schindlers, but managed to keep their cool and keep focused on Terri and pressing politicians.
See above. Last time you needed clarification it was because you thought I wanted people to riot or something? Now you need more clarification over something we've already gone over. Just make your "main point" if you have one.
So you are saying that those who were present in DC, Atlanta and the Hospice were all worshipping the false god of Public Acceptance?? All those who across the nation who repeatedly emailed and called their representatives and the White House and Gov. Bush's office -- all of them worshipped at the alter of Public Acceptance?? Most were Christians, tho not all (did you read about disabled fomo who was protesting?). Many times we wondered how they could keep their composure, and keep thinking of ways to press authorities without just losing it. But they managed. We managed. And because of these "idol worshippers", Terri's plight was heard the world over. Hardly were we going for acceptance, Jefferson, but merely to save Terri's life.
Do I concern myself with how Christians make me look? You bet I do. Had a conversation with a woman at church once and I asked her why she believed the Bible. She said she believed it because she trusted God. Now, that's a great answer among Christians, but not so great when out in the world. I asked her if this is what she said when talking with an unbeliever who might ask this and she said yes. DOH! When an unbeliever hears something like that, it makes ALL of us look like ninnies. Ergo, how we present ourselves, our Savior and our faith in Him is under scrutiny. They don't have to accept Christ. They don't have to accept the truth of the Gospel. They don't have to accept US. But it had better not be because of us. To be hated because of Christ is one thing. To be hated because of other Christians is another thing entirely.
How often has Bob rebuked Christians for saying dopey things or doing dopey things? And why is that? Because he knows that Christians must be smarter, levelheaded. We Christians have a duty to be wise as serpents and to not behave stupidly or foolishly or presumptuously. It hurt to hear Doug compared to the guy at Olympics who impeded the leader in a race, causing him to come in 3rd or something, all in the name of Chrisitianity. Was this guy a Christian, hope not. Still the comparison was made. Silly? Sure, because this is NOT the same situation, but that's the comparison that was made! Still, I understand Bob's loyalty to his friend. I don't knock that. That was my initial reaction to someone I tend to like.
Jefferson, please disavow youself of accusing me of wanting public approval. If I were that way, I wouldn't even be a Christian. I've been rejected by most family and many friends, actually. I've even been rejected by those who also call themselves Christians when I discuss what I've learned specifically from Bob (how dare I speak up and know what's actually in the bible!!!). I could "go along to get along" but I haven't and I won't. Neither did those Christians who stood up for Terri "go along to get along". Doug needed to stand firm with them, showing a united front in all that confusion and emotion. Instead, he garnered attention that took away from Terri and was unseemly in light of the strength showed by those Christians already on the scene. It might have galvanized those Christians there, but they were in the most emotional place to be in the first place so it wouldn't take much, but it didn't do much for Christians physically removed.
My main point was the whole worshipping the false god of Public Acceptance issue. See my avatar? I've got a billboard of an aborted baby that looks similar to that. The dimensions are 4 feet by 8 feet. For a long time I displayed it (guarded it) on the property of a church which aligns the busiest street in my town. Many times I had people screaming in my face to remove it. The city shut me down. I took them to court. Won. Then put the display back up again. Much of the criticism I received was from people who called themselves "Christian." They were more concerned about how it made the Christian community (ie. them) look than whether or not it changed minds and prevented murders. Eventually the deacons and elders of my church put pressure on the pastor to tell me to not display the photograph anymore. Well, I don't attend that church anymore. I don't stick around where I'm not wanted. With all the abuse I have to put up with the pro-aborts screaming at me, I've got to put up with my own Christian brethren wanting to shut me down ALSO??? Give me a break! So needless to say I've become a little bit impatient with Christians who criticize people like me (and Doug) who stick our necks out in public exposing ourselves to abuse. If those Christians don't want to join us, fine. But any Christain who goes further than that and tries to discourage me from doing what I do for the sake of how it makes them look, well, those Christian wimps just make me want to :vomit:Rimi said:
Last edited by a moderator:
Jefferson said:
In the case of your billboard, you're not drawing attention to yourself but to the issue. That's not how Doug came across. Just noticed that even the show's name doesn't reference Terry. I am well aware of Christians who protest and I don't have a problem with them. If I did, then I would've disagreed with ALL the demonstrators outside Hospice and other areas. I would disagree with ALL DBCers who protest in Denver. But I don't, Jefferson. I don't disagree with your avatar, haven't said a word. That's because the issue is being touted, not the individual. It's just that Doug didn't come across as speaking up for Terry so much as getting attention for himself (or his church?). There already was attention in that time and place. This is NOT to discourage, Jefferson, but to encourage better planning, better strategy. Less emotion, more brains. This was a really emotional time for all of us. Doug sat in for BE before heading out to FL and he was do upset on the show. So we have to be even more clearheaded, levelheaded. We know there's going to be another Terry somewhere out there. Why not look at everything and get ready for it, not run off half-cocked. Get a plan now and a means of disseminating info so we can be stronger. What was done before (by all protestors) didn't work, so it is essential to have something ready to go. This is hardly me "discouraging" you or Doug, Jefferson.
BTW, I have no idea what would be a good plan. I've been thinking and hoping BE or someone else says something, get details worked out and then be ready. If someone has, please direct me so I can read.
- Status