:darwinsm:
Exposing your ignorance is no way to seize upon a news story that you think helps your side.
Summit Clock Experiment 2.0: Time is Absolute
- Thread starter Bob Enyart
- Start date
:darwinsm:
Exposing your ignorance is no way to seize upon a news story that you think helps your side.
gcthomas
New member
The single black hole that was the product of the merger was over three solar masses lighter than the sum of the two black holes - the Hiroshima bomb only converted 6 grammes of matter to energy. No wonder we can still detect the grav waves 1300 million years later.
It is awe inspiring to have detected such a titanic collision going on out there.
Irony once again.
Interesting how many times Einstein's THEORY has been "confirmed".
It's not any more confirmed this time than it was the last half dozen times someone claimed to have confirmed it.
You cannot get around two simple facts.
1. Time does not exist. It is merely an idea, a convention of language used to convey information about the duration and sequence of events relative to other events.
2. Nothing - nothing at all - EVER leaves the present moment. All that exists, exists now - period.
It's not any more confirmed this time than it was the last half dozen times someone claimed to have confirmed it.
You cannot get around two simple facts.
1. Time does not exist. It is merely an idea, a convention of language used to convey information about the duration and sequence of events relative to other events.
2. Nothing - nothing at all - EVER leaves the present moment. All that exists, exists now - period.
About 90 seconds into that video he proves the whole idea of space-time false.
Contradictions DO NOT exist. If your theory claims as "facts" things that are self-contradictory, your theory is fantasy.
This is the problem (well, one of the many problems) with forming theories about reality based on math. Math is conceptual, which is to say that it exists only in your mind. The universe isn't out there computing the laws of physics and placing things in their proper place based on the results it gets. The universe just is. The physical universe, cannot be and not be, it cannot do and not do, an event cannot happen and not happen.
This is not so with math because math isn't real, its an idea. You can play all kinds of games with numbers that have no counterparts in reality. With math, for example you can create a Menger Sponge, in reality you can only approximate it. In math, you can prove that .99999..... is equal to 1 but in reality less than a whole is less than a whole and in addition to that, there is no possible physical representation of .9999999... of something. In math there are exactly the same number of numbers that start with 1 as there are numbers that start with 6 or 3 or any other digit. In reality 1 is the first digit 30% of the time and the frequency of finding each successive number as the first digit in a real world number follows a downward logarithmic scale (see image below). This little known fact is used to detect fraud.
And that's just a tiny hand full of examples of where math and reality do not mix. The scientific community at large has abandoned science to a very great degree. They've gone so far down this mathematical road that they've lost the ability to think is terms of physical reality and have actually rejected the foundation of all knowledge and understanding! That foundation being the Law of Identity, A is A!
The Law of Identity is the single most important idea that has ever crossed the mind of any human being in the whole history of mankind. Whether you're a Christian and believe, as I do, that Adam was the first human to exist some 6000 years ago, or whether you think that man has existed for millions of years, there is no idea, no statement of knowledge or philosophy that is one tenth as important nor one percent as far reaching as the Law of Identity. Every fact of knowledge from, "I am thirsty." to "The Moon is 238,900 miles from Earth" and everything in between rests on the Law of Identity and every piece of technology exists by a reasoned application of the same law. Every gear in a transmission, every valve in a power plant, every drop of solder in the computer you are using right now is there in response to the questions "Yes or no?", "Right or wrong?", "Is or is not?" and the degree to which the technology works as intended is the degree to which those question where answered correctly.
So, the Einstein's of the world and those who make YouTube videos about his ideas want to have their cake and eat it too and they construct all kinds of "mind experiments" to explain how it can happen, but it can't. They can have all the complex maths in the world and they can create all sorts of computer generated animations they want but at the end of the day they cannot get past the fact that no matter what order someone thinks things happen in, no matter how fast they think time is going by there is no escaping the present moment - period. All that is, is - now and only now. A is A.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Contradictions DO NOT exist. If your theory claims as "facts" things that are self-contradictory, your theory is fantasy.
This is the problem (well, one of the many problems) with forming theories about reality based on math. Math is conceptual, which is to say that it exists only in your mind. The universe isn't out there computing the laws of physics and placing things in their proper place based on the results it gets. The universe just is. The physical universe, cannot be and not be, it cannot do and not do, an event cannot happen and not happen.
This is not so with math because math isn't real, its an idea. You can play all kinds of games with numbers that have no counterparts in reality. With math, for example you can create a Menger Sponge, in reality you can only approximate it. In math, you can prove that .99999..... is equal to 1 but in reality less than a whole is less than a whole and in addition to that, there is no possible physical representation of .9999999... of something. In math there are exactly the same number of numbers that start with 1 as there are numbers that start with 6 or 3 or any other digit. In reality 1 is the first digit 30% of the time and the frequency of finding each successive number as the first digit in a real world number follows a downward logarithmic scale (see image below). This little known fact is used to detect fraud.
And that's just a tiny hand full of examples of where math and reality do not mix. The scientific community at large has abandoned science to a very great degree. They've gone so far down this mathematical road that they've lost the ability to think is terms of physical reality and have actually rejected the foundation of all knowledge and understanding! That foundation being the Law of Identity, A is A!
The Law of Identity is the single most important idea that has ever crossed the mind of any human being in the whole history of mankind. Whether you're a Christian and believe, as I do, that Adam was the first human to exist some 6000 years ago, or whether you think that man has existed for millions of years, there is no idea, no statement of knowledge or philosophy that is one tenth as important nor one percent as far reaching as the Law of Identity. Every fact of knowledge from, "I am thirsty." to "The Moon is 238,900 miles from Earth" and everything in between rests on the Law of Identity and every piece of technology exists by a reasoned application of the same law. Every gear in a transmission, every valve in a power plant, every drop of solder in the computer you are using right now is there in response to the questions "Yes or no?", "Right or wrong?", "Is or is not?" and the degree to which the technology works as intended is the degree to which those question where answered correctly.
So, the Einstein's of the world and those who make YouTube videos about his ideas want to have their cake and eat it too and they construct all kinds of "mind experiments" to explain how it can happen, but it can't. They can have all the complex maths in the world and they can create all sorts of computer generated animations they want but at the end of the day they cannot get past the fact that no matter what order someone thinks things happen in, no matter how fast they think time is going by there is no escaping the present moment - period. All that is, is - now and only now. A is A.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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OCTOBER23
New member
uniform pseudo-force field - “The idea of relativity is to throw out the concept
of traveling through time inescapably, and accept time as just another dimension.”
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God seems to measure Time by the interaction of heavenly bodies
which is prevalent all throughout the Bible from the entry of the Hebrews into Egypt in 1877 BC
to the Exact Date and Location of the Crucifixion of Christ .
of traveling through time inescapably, and accept time as just another dimension.”
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God seems to measure Time by the interaction of heavenly bodies
which is prevalent all throughout the Bible from the entry of the Hebrews into Egypt in 1877 BC
to the Exact Date and Location of the Crucifixion of Christ .
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Tyrathca
New member
Clete if all your blustering about science and math being divorced from reality is right why then do they keep giving real world results?
Quantum computing, gravity waves, fission/fusion, etc seem very real but we're only found due to the predictions of Science you claim doesn't deal with reality anymore.
Quantum computing, gravity waves, fission/fusion, etc seem very real but we're only found due to the predictions of Science you claim doesn't deal with reality anymore.
Getting a result doesn't mean you've gotten a correct result.
gcthomas
New member
It must annoy the YECs that science works so well without any input from the pseudoscientist cranks that they prefer.
Nope.
It's annoying when trolling is all we get from Darwinists in response to substantial posts like the one from Clete.
You're all trolls, relying on the popularity of your ideas to hold fast against rational discourse.
Tyrathca
New member
So nuclear reactors run on magic then?
Clete got a response to the most substantive post of his post. It's hard to respond in detail to a long rambling assault on the entirety of Science and mathematics. Especially when half of it is just making vague claims about the deficiencies of scientists thinking.
Even you don't normally try to say science as a whole is a fraud / mass delusion.
:AMR:
Nope. Your response did nothing to engage Clete's post. You reacted to what you imagined was a conclusion of his.
:darwinsm:
You think A=A is difficult to respond to?
:darwinsm:
A=A, remember?
Right. It's Darwinists who are the problem, not scientists. :up:
Now, Clete spent great effort to explain a terminal problem for scientific investigation that, if eliminated, could shed light on ways to improve on relativity theory.
Did you have anything to add, or are you just here to troll?
gcthomas
New member
Yup. Clete seems unaware of the observational support for relativity, which means there is observational support for rejecting the idea of a universal 'present' - the whole concept of simultaneity has been demoted to folk tradition. Absolute time as a concept does not match reality, not that the crank YECs here won't be seen standing on the beach like Cnut, proving their impotence, as the tide of science washes over their feet.
But it is fun watching.
Tyrathca
New member
I was talking about how science got results like Quantum computing, gravity waves, fission/fusion and you respond that getting these doesn't mean getting the right results.
Therefore I can only assume you think fission does not occur due to the mechanisms science used to predict it. And that you instead believe something else causes it (like magic maybe?)
I think I summarised his ramblings pretty well actually. What do you think his point was?
It is when I don't know to what he is referring to when saying scientists have rejected it (Is he talking about quantum physics and superpositions?) Or is he talking about science as a whole beyond just that field? No one knows but Clete because he was a rambling and vague mess.
But hey If you think you know what he was thinking by all means enlighten me. :think:
None of what he said is clearly related to relativity. Unless you can explain what 0.999999999999..... = 1 or what the likelihood of a digit being 1-10 in a paper has to do with relativity?
Coming from someone like you who has trolling on this forum down to an art form I'll take that as a compliment. :devil:
I wasn't blustering and I didn't say they were divorced.
When a system acts in a consistent way its behavior can very often be expressed mathematically. That does not mean that it (the universe) is essentially mathematical. Nor does it mean that everything you can force the numbers to do can be translated into physical reality. The point I am making therefore isn't that mathematics is useless but that you cannot built a theory about reality solely on the basis on mathematics, which is very nearly what both General and Special Relativity does and is precisely what Quantum Mechanics and String Theory does. Science has to do with reality, not math. Math is a tool, not the universe itself.
I never made any such claim. To the extent they describe reality, they're quite useful. The question this thread is dealing with has entirely to do with whether Relativity effects time or whether it effects clocks. If you take the time to think it through you'll notice that the usefulness of the theory isn't effected much at all if you accept that time itself doesn't exist and that the relativistic effects have to do with clocks.
The bottom line is that time is not a thing, its an idea. Gravity has no effect on ideas.
Resting in Him,
Clete
There's all kinds of observations that scientists have repeatedly jumped on to declare as proof of Einstein's theory. No matter how many times it's been "proven" they just keep jumping up and down about how some new observation has "proven" it. If the theory had been proven as they claim, their repeated jubilation over some new observation would be akin to them getting all excited about a new observation that proved the sky to be blue. The point being that these observations may be consistent with predictions made by the theory, they are not proof. The fact that they (and you) think otherwise is only just so much more evidence that scientists have forgotten how to think. Modern cosmology has become closer to a religion than a science.
Further, these observations that supposedly prove Relativity, at least in regards to the focus of this thread, all have to do with clocks - not time. Nothing ever leaves the present moment - period. There is no observation, no experimental result, no physical evidence of any sort that anything has ever existed outside the present moment.
Even the constancy of the speed of light cannot be proven by today's scientists because they all universally use atomic clocks to time the speed of light. How can to know if the speed of light has remained constant if the ruler you are using is inherently relativistic in nature? In other words, the ticks of an atomic clock are directly related to the speed of light and so any process that might effect the speed of light would simultaneously effect the ticks of your atomic clock. And so the speed of light could drop in half and if you're using an atomic clock to measure it, you'd never notice.
So no, Einstein's theories have not been "proven". And while they are obviously quite useful they have not proven the ontological existence of time either, nor will they ever.
Resting in Him,
Clete
It would help if you actually read the post.
Every one of the examples I brought up was in support of the idea that what is mathematical is not necessarily related to anything real. If you build a theory about physical reality and base is solely on mathematics, you're going to get disappointed. The universe doesn't give a rip about math and just because some mathematician like Einstein says things are a certain way, doesn't mean they are. And all too often, what passes for science today isn't science at all but mere advanced mathematics and the hallmark of the "scientist" that has gone too far down the mathematical yellow brick road is when he accepts contradictions as facts of reality rather than getting out is chalk board eraser.
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gcthomas
New member
Let's just assume, for the moment, that a mathematical theory that predicts the entirety of newtonian mechanics, gravitation and the measured time dilation for satellite clocks, gravitational waves, the orbit of Mercury, the orbital decay of neuron stars, the properties of electrons, and the colour of gold cannot be trusted and tells us nothing about the world.
Your post was unclear about the specific contradictions you refer to. Could you repeat them in a brief form that we can discuss?
Your post was unclear about the specific contradictions you refer to. Could you repeat them in a brief form that we can discuss?
Tyrathca
New member
My summary of it is this :
Physics uses too much math
There are things which exist in math which we have no analogue in reality (by a layman's understanding)
This means math shouldn't be used to describe reality because ???
How often and how accurately physics predicts things correctly is meaningless so long as Clete can play semantics and feel he is still correct.
Physics uses too much math
There are things which exist in math which we have no analogue in reality (by a layman's understanding)
This means math shouldn't be used to describe reality because ???
How often and how accurately physics predicts things correctly is meaningless so long as Clete can play semantics and feel he is still correct.