ECT Studying how the NT uses the OT

[Interplanner]

Everyone in theological study should spend a year learning how the NT quotes/uses the OT. There are about 2500 instances. A short list can be compiled by going through the footnotes of the NIV. The complete list will be found in Metzger's ABS Greek text.

When you've completed this year, you will then return to forums and other Christian media and realize that the prophecy experts and futurists have a completely foreign approach. They go directly between the OT and today's news. Not so the apostles. Last I checked, our faith was once for all delivered to the apostles.

 

[Cross Reference]

Everyone in theological study should spend a year learning how the NT quotes/uses the OT. There are about 2500 instances. A short list can be compiled by going through the footnotes of the NIV. The complete list will be found in Metzger's ABS Greek text.

When you've completed this year, you will then return to forums and other Christian media and realize that the prophecy experts and futurists have a completely foreign approach. They go directly between the OT and today's news. Not so the apostles. Last I checked, our faith was once for all delivered to the apostles.

Last time I checked, it was of Abraham unto all who believed Jesus Christ.

Another question I assume will go unanswered: How does the NT "use" the OT when it is but an account of things followed by an exhortation to holiness.

 

[Danoh]

Everyone in theological study should spend a year learning how the NT quotes/uses the OT. There are about 2500 instances. A short list can be compiled by going through the footnotes of the NIV. The complete list will be found in Metzger's ABS Greek text.

When you've completed this year, you will then return to forums and other Christian media and realize that the prophecy experts and futurists have a completely foreign approach. They go directly between the OT and today's news. Not so the apostles. Last I checked, our faith was once for all delivered to the apostles.

An observation, you might want to keep in mind, Interplanner....

That I know of, the majority of, if not all, the twenty or so Mid-Acts Dispys on this site, are cessasionist. Our understanding being that, all intervention outside of the Word basically ceased, temporarily, not too long after the close of the book Acts, and has remained that way to this day.

You Partial Preterists are more about that then we are; far and away much more. You look to supposed history in its endless inaccuracies.

2 Timothy 3:16, 17 are a myth in your school of thought.

Your suggestion is further flawed also in its one size fits all notion that anyone who does as you have suggested above will even know how to look at the passages to begin with.

And you went to school for yours; where you were indoctrinated in your particular approach - as to what to look at and how.

The Scholastic Mysticism that is your school so ingrained in you now that you are perhaps far gone now from any hope of recovery from its lens.

Better a person attempt to learn first how approaching a thing objectively works; what its principles might be. Applying those to what one is looking at.

That is not the approach of your school of thought; yours is an approach steeped in what to think, and guess at, followed by its inevitable; how to think - from within its resulting vacuum.

 

[iamaberean]

Everyone in theological study should spend a year learning how the NT quotes/uses the OT. There are about 2500 instances. A short list can be compiled by going through the footnotes of the NIV. The complete list will be found in Metzger's ABS Greek text.

When you've completed this year, you will then return to forums and other Christian media and realize that the prophecy experts and futurists have a completely foreign approach. They go directly between the OT and today's news. Not so the apostles. Last I checked, our faith was once for all delivered to the apostles.

There is more than just quotes, for example:

In the Old testament the Jews were heading to the promise land. When they got to the border they sent scouts into the land. The scouts came back saying it would be impossible for them to defeat those that were living there.
For their unbelief, God made them wander in the wilderness for forty years, a generation, before the others were allowed to enter.

Jesus came unto his own to lead them into the new promise land. They rejected him, so God made them, because of their unbelief, wander in the old land for 40 years, a generation, before those of faith, Abraham and the others of faith that had died in the past, could enter.

Jesus was crucified in 30 AD and he returned in judgment in 70 AD, 40 years, one generation. We know this because he had told his disciples that the temple would be destroyed, as it was by the Roman army, and then the end would come.

 

[iamaberean]

delete

 

[tetelestai]

all intervention outside of the Word basically ceased, temporarily, not too long after the close of the book Acts, and has remained that way to this day.

It ceased in 70AD

 

[tetelestai]

Everyone in theological study should spend a year learning how the NT quotes/uses the OT. There are about 2500 instances. A short list can be compiled by going through the footnotes of the NIV. The complete list will be found in Metzger's ABS Greek text.

When you've completed this year, you will then return to forums and other Christian media and realize that the prophecy experts and futurists have a completely foreign approach. They go directly between the OT and today's news. Not so the apostles. Last I checked, our faith was once for all delivered to the apostles.

:thumb:

Dispensationalists/Futurists constantly take OT prophecies and apply them to the yet future. Nothing could be further from the truth, as Christ Jesus has fulfilled the Law and Prophets.

Also, the other thing Dispensationalists/Futurists fail miserably at is that they don't understand that when a NT writer quotes the OT, it is to show that that prophecy was being fulfilled.

Dispensationalists/Futurists think NT writers quoted the OT prophecies to somehow show that they are still prophecies that will happen in the future.

 

[Cross Reference]

There is more than just quotes, for example:

In the Old testament the Jews were heading to the promise land. When they got to the border they sent scouts into the land. The scouts came back saying it would be impossible for them to defeat those that were living there.
For their unbelief, God made them wander in the wilderness for forty years, a generation, before the others were allowed to enter.

Jesus came unto his own to lead them into the new promise land. They rejected him, so God made them, because of their unbelief, wander in the old land for 40 years, a generation, before those of faith, Abraham and the others of faith that had died in the past, could enter.

Jesus was crucified in 30 AD and he returned in judgment in 70 AD, 40 years, one generation. We know this because he had told his disciples that the temple would be destroyed, as it was by the Roman army, and then the end would come.

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So what happened after that "one generation" died off and the "judgment of of Jesus" took place? What comes next? When does the end come?

 

[Danoh]

So what happened after that "one generation" died off and the "judgment of of Jesus" took place? What comes next? When does the end come?

It depends on which Partial Preterist you ask.

As with all schools of thought; individuals within any school will differ on their understanding of some things, even within the same school of thought.

You won't hear this from the Preterists - there is no one size fits all answer in Scripture.

This, by the simple virtue of that fact that "God... at sundry times and in divers manners spake..." Heb. 1:1.

Thus, Scripture's divers "Time Past...But Now...Ages to Come..."

Even demons know that much over those who get their ideas from their endless books supposedly based on Scripture - Matthew 8:

28. And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

 

[Cross Reference]

It depends on which Partial Preterist you ask.

As with all schools of thought; individuals within any school will differ on their understanding of some things, even within the same school of thought.

You won't hear this from the Preterists - there is no one size fits all answer in Scripture.

This, by the simple virtue of that fact that "God... at sundry times and in divers manners spake..." Heb. 1:1.

Thus, Scripture's divers "Time Past...But Now...Ages to Come..."

Even demons know that much over those who get their ideas from their endless books supposedly based on Scripture - Matthew 8:

28. And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

I would really like to hear at least one of them explain what, I don't believe they can.

 

[iamaberean]

So what happened after that "one generation" died off and the "judgment of of Jesus" took place? What comes next? When does the end come?

This is why I am totally frustrated with the false prophecy teachers, they go to the book of Revelation to translate (falsely) the scriptures that are visions when there are scriptures that are very clear.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
The books that were opened are the books of the old testament. How do I know?. It says the dead were judged according to their works. What people do we know that placed their trust in works? The Jews that did the works of Law. So the dead were the Jews that had died prior to 70 AD.

Jesus had also told his disciples that they would judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The end that came was the end of the age of Law. The church age will never end.
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

 

[tetelestai]

I would really like to hear at least one of them explain what, I don't believe they can.

My understanding is the "thousand years" began in 70AD. In 70AD, Christ Jesus sat down on the throne in His kingdom with the Saints. Satan was bound. Since then the Saints have been reigning with Christ Jesus.

Rev 20 tells us the "thousand years" will one day come to an end, and when it does Satan will be loosed for a little while, but then defeated once and for all. Satan is thrown into the lake of fire, then the Great White Throne Judgment happens and all unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire, and then death and Hades is thrown into the fire.

 

[Cross Reference]

My understanding is the "thousand years" began in 70AD. In 70AD, Christ Jesus sat down on the throne in His kingdom with the Saints. Satan was bound. Since then the Saints have been reigning with Christ Jesus.

Reigning? Have the enemies of Christ been made His "footstool" that He now sits on the throne of David and rules from Jerusalem with His very elect assisting Him in ruling with a "rod of iron"?

Rev 20 tells us the "thousand years" will one day come to an end,

But when do they begin you can't say but only declare, outside rational thinking, in 70 ad, 'two thousand years ago,' __ which indeed doesn't make sense since satan, obviously, has never been in chains to be released, and the Jews were scattered all over the known world, at that time.

Has Zechariah 14:1ff been fulfilled?

I must also assume you have explained away Rev 12 and 13? I believe you have some explaining to do.

 

[tetelestai]

Reigning? Have the enemies of Christ been made His "footstool" that He now sits on the throne of David and rules from Jerusalem with His very elect assisting Him in ruling with a "rod of iron"?

For a king to "reign" there has to be enemies.

The verse says He will reign UNTIL His enemies are made a footstool.

(1 Cor 15:25) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

But when do they begin you can't say but only declare, outside rational thinking, in 70 ad, 'two thousand years ago,'

The Saints began reigning with Christ Jesus in 70AD.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say Christ Jesus reigns a thousand years. It specifically says the Saints reign with Christ Jesus a thousand years.

Dick Cheney served as George W Bush's SOS for 4 years. That doesn't mean George W Bush was president 4 years.

__ which indeed doesn't make sense since satan, obviously, has never been in chains to be released,

Satan was "bound" so he could not deceive the nations any longer.

The word "bound" is a legal term, and doesn't have to mean literally tied up in chains. Someone can be "bound" to a contract, etc.

and the Jews were scattered all over the known world, at that time.

Yes, in 70AD Jerusalem was destroyed, over a million Jews were killed, and many other Jews were hauled off as slaves.

This was all prophesied.

Has Zechariah 14:1ff been fulfilled?

Yes.

Everything in the OT has been fulfilled in Christ Jesus. Christ Jesus fulfilled the Law and Prophets.

I must also assume you have explained away Rev 12 and 13? I believe you have some explaining to do.

What don't you understand in Rev 12, 13?

 

[Cross Reference]

For a king to "reign" there has to be enemies.

Really?? I thought a king only needed subjects to "reign" over.

The verse says He will reign UNTIL His enemies are made a footstool.

(1 Cor 15:25) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

You mean this verse or other verses that repeat the same words?:

"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?" Matthew 22:44 (KJV)

The Saints began reigning with Christ Jesus in 70AD.

Bull! Saints are seated with Him in heavenly places.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say Christ Jesus reigns a thousand years. It specifically says the Saints reign with Christ Jesus a thousand years.

. . . . on the throne of David in Jerusalem!

Dick Cheney served as George W Bush's SOS for 4 years. That doesn't mean George W Bush was president 4 years.

What it does mean is that you have run out of arguments.

Satan was "bound" so he could not deceive the nations any longer.

And that has happened?????? Get real.

The word "bound" is a legal term, and doesn't have to mean literally tied up in chains. Someone can be "bound" to a contract, etc.

uh, huh. Tell that to those who are in chains.

Yes, in 70AD Jerusalem was destroyed, over a million Jews were killed, and many other Jews were hauled off as slaves.

and by such means were they were scattered over the earth. Until 1948 when Israel, once again, became a nation.

This was all prophesied.

Everything in the OT has been fulfilled in Christ Jesus. Christ Jesus fulfilled the Law and Prophets.

Then do a better job at paying attention.

What don't you understand in Rev 12, 13?

I Asked you to explain it. Just act like I don't understand and give your analysis.

 

[tetelestai]

Really?? I thought a king only needed subjects to "reign" over.

No, he needs enemies.

You mean this verse or other verses that repeat the same words?:

"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?" Matthew 22:44 (KJV)

You're confused.

Christ Jesus sat at the right hand of God from 30AD - 70AD. The enemies He made a footstool were the Jews who rejected him when He destroyed the temple and Jerusalem in 70AD

Then, in 70AD, Christ Jesus sat on the throne of David and then the Saints began to reign with Him a thousand years.

Bull! Saints are seated with Him in heavenly places.

The Saints didn't start reigning with Him until 70AD

. . . . on the throne of David in Jerusalem!

Not the Jerusalem in the Middle East.

What it does mean is that you have run out of arguments.

No, I was showing you that Christ Jesus' reign isn't limited. The Saints reign with Him however is.

And that has happened?????? Get real.

Yes, the nations are no longer deceived. The gospel of Christ Jesus has been preached in every nation.

You are confusing sin with satan roaming the planet.

uh, huh. Tell that to those who are in chains.

The word has more than one meaning.

You assume Satan has been in a room with a ball and chain tied to him for two thousand years.

and by such means were they were scattered over the earth. Until 1948 when Israel, once again, became a nation.

1948 has absolutely nothing to do with Bible prophecy.

Then do a better job at paying attention.

I'm the one who understands that Christ Jesus fulfilled the Law and Prophets. You're the one who is brining up prophecies from the Law and Prophets and claiming they haven't been fulfilled.

I Asked you to explain it. Just act like I don't understand and give your analysis.

Rev 12, 13 have been fulfilled.

 

[Interplanner]

Just getting caught up here.

I see no significance to what Danoh wrote. If he has a particular passage to talk about as an example of the NT quoting the OT, let's here that.

I don't know why anyone would say the saints reign began in 70 AD when the reign of Christ began on the day of the resurrection, eph 1. there is no reign outside of him; we reign in his and through his.

I don't see any need to "solve" everything in the Revelation, because many times I don't know what its purpose is, but it mostly seems to be pastoral encourage, and hardly a step by step description of the world's end. I'll stick with the ordinary language passages first.

Mostly, the use of the OT is to spotlight Christ and his mission so that the believer knows he has ambassador status in this world when speaking of how God was in Christ settling the debt of sin.

 

[iamaberean]

Interplanner,
I don't know why anyone would say the saints reign began in 70 AD when the reign of Christ began on the day of the resurrection, eph 1. there is no reign outside of him; we reign in his and through his.

If your talking to me, I didn't say that.

This is why I am totally frustrated with the false prophecy teachers, they go to the book of Revelation to translate (falsely) the scriptures that are visions when there are scriptures that are very clear.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
The books that were opened are the books of the old testament. How do I know?. It says the dead were judged according to their works. What people do we know that placed their trust in works? The Jews that did the works of Law. So the dead were the Jews that had died prior to 70 AD.

Jesus had also told his disciples that they would judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The end that came was the end of the age of Law. The church age will never end.
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

If you don't understand Revelation, don't make any comments about what it means to you.

 

[Cross Reference]

No, he needs enemies.



You're confused.

Christ Jesus sat at the right hand of God from 30AD - 70AD. The enemies He made a footstool were the Jews who rejected him when He destroyed the temple and Jerusalem in 70AD

Then, in 70AD, Christ Jesus sat on the throne of David and then the Saints began to reign with Him a thousand years.



The Saints didn't start reigning with Him until 70AD



Not the Jerusalem in the Middle East.



No, I was showing you that Christ Jesus' reign isn't limited. The Saints reign with Him however is.



Yes, the nations are no longer deceived. The gospel of Christ Jesus has been preached in every nation.

You are confusing sin with satan roaming the planet.



The word has more than one meaning.

You assume Satan has been in a room with a ball and chain tied to him for two thousand years.



1948 has absolutely nothing to do with Bible prophecy.



I'm the one who understands that Christ Jesus fulfilled the Law and Prophets. You're the one who is brining up prophecies from the Law and Prophets and claiming they haven't been fulfilled.



Rev 12, 13 have been fulfilled.

The result of my findings in this with you is, you are wilfully __ stupid.

 

[tetelestai]

The result of my findings in this with you is, you are wilfully __ stupid.

This coming from someone who thinks 1948 is Bible prophecy.