Spammers wasteland

Spammers wasteland


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PneumaPsucheSoma

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I believe that Tambora is trying to make the point that the Greek words that are today said as "synergy" are derived from two Greek words that mean "work together".

In a previous post, PPS said: "The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit work together. It's called perichoresis."

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?89868-Spammers-wasteland&p=4736986&viewfull=1#post4736986

So it appears that we can only use the words approved by PPS to describe things, otherwise we are heretics.

They're not MY words. They're the words utilized for nearly two millennia, and with good reason.

Sun- and ergon CANNOT be applied to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They inidcate economy, not ontology. That would mean Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are individuals that must ccoperate together to be God. It means their divinity is the result of their works.

And perichoresis is the appropriate word, for peri- and choresis are what God IS as F/S/HS and has energeia from His being.

You self-unlearned novice innovating heretics need to find the clue store and make some huge purchases.

Theology Proper isn't for novice wannabe posers.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Ya know, I could walk into a crowd and say, "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit rotate", and they would have a blank stare on their face.
Or, I could walk into a crowd and say, "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit work together," and they would say Amen.

And then PPS and Nang would bust in calling them all heretics.

Yep, and I'd teach them why and they'd berate you, too. And rightly so.

And this is the problem with most professing Believers. They know what nothing means or doesn't mean.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
It's also quite hypocritical to derogatorily call some people "English literalists" and then turn around and reject the literal Greek words.

But hey, they're the Greek experts!

Nang didn't reject the literal Greek word. Tambora has.

Sun- and ergon are NOT peri- and choresis.

You're a moron.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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We'll see if he comes in here saying that I am the worst antichrist heretic reprobate with no God that has ever lived.
:popcorn:

I have not been following the thread, so if I have missed something, do not hesitate to point it out to me. That said, I was asked about the matter and here is essentially my response:

I think the issues PPS and Nang are raising are important, but I am not so sure Tambora was implying what Nang and PPS are denouncing in the first place. Depending upon the venue, persons in ordinary conversation may say the Persons of the Godhead work together as long as we are not assuming the Persons of the Godhead are capable of not working together, which is implied, albeit unstated, if one is saying the Persons of the Godhead are cooperating with one another. So it is all about the context wherein discussion is taking place, e.g., in the line at a grocery store, at a family discussion at dinner, in an academic forum, etc.

For the record from the teachings of Scripture, there is but one will in God, not three wills, with each of these three wills within the subsistences of Godhead being independent of the other's will.

Shedd defines the human will as: “that voluntary power of human nature which determines the continuous movement of the soul toward its ultimate reason for living, according to those principles of life which together make up human nature” [Shedd, Essays, 233–234].

I think we can adapt Shedd by defining God's will as: “that voluntary power of the divine nature which determines its eternal movement as the ultimate reason for being, according to those perfect principles of existence (God's attributes) which together make up the divine nature”. (This is a work in progress, so be kind.)

When we speak of "will" we must understand that the will is attached to (belongs to) the divine nature. Natures have wills, not persons. This applies whether speaking of God or human beings. Belonging to the person as a property is the "I", "Thou", "He", that is, the sense of self. So when the Son says, "I do the will of my Father" it is the Person, the "I", that does/acts. Try to keep in the mind this useful memory aid: Natures are, Persons do/act.

Connected to the will is the notion of volition. Volition is the expressive faculty used by the will to carry out its choices through actions in thoughts and deeds. The will chooses the principles determining the how and why of action, volition carries out those choices through individual actions.

Again, will belongs to the divine nature, but there is an "I," "Thou," and "He," owing to the personal properties. Accordingly, The Second Person of the Godhead knows Himself as the Son of the Father, and rejoices in it. Without this personal knowledge He could not have volunteered to make Himself of no reputation. Similarly, Our Lord states in His prayer in Gethsemane, "not my will, but yours be done". From the above, we should know that this is Our Lord's speech in His humanity, for His divine will is not out of alignment with the one divine will that all Persons of the Godhead partake within equally wholly.

In summary, unless Tambora has been implying in her posts (as stated, I have not been following the thread) that there are different wills in the Godhead, which would be falling into tri-theism, speaking of cooperation among the Persons of the Godhead is an acceptable form of speech, given my caveats above, that can be further dissected for more clarity in normal conversation.

Yes, we should all be good theologians, but some of us are not a adept with the language of theology and thusly should be less quick to take another to task when the less informed make infelicitous statements in theological discussions. Unfortunately, some are very scrupulous when it comes to how things are said no matter what the context of the things being said. So when I interact with these folks I take careful pains to construct what I have to say understanding that they will examine each and every word. These persons will not change, and I respect that, adopting my discussion style accordingly. Conducting an edifying discussion requires both parties to attempy to understand the other's methods and modes and try to work within that framework. All too often we are all occasionally guilty of hair-trigger "ready, fire, aim" responses when it comes to matters of the faith

The average person encountering the painfully scrupulous will be taken aback when they stridently point out his or her's less than perfect theological speech. I think there is a time and place for attention to detail, but not in ordinary discourse, especially in a generally anti-Reformed/Calvinistic environment like TOL, where care should be taken to not immediately give offense without warrant. In this topic at hand, had I been active, I would have sought clarification as to another's view about their notions of the will of God first, "One will in the Godhead?" "Three wills?" and proceeded accordingly.

The question I was aksed is exactly why we need theologians. From theologians we are not told what to say, but how to say it in order to avoid falling into error.
icon_wink.gif


If the reader is inclined to dig deeper, I recommend the following as a very thorough (and academically dense) treatment of the entire topic of the will of God: http://www.puritanshop.com/shop/the-two-wills-of-god/

AMR
 

Right Divider

Body part
That is a dictionary definition, not a biblical concept.
Indeed, you guys are so puffed up with YOUR definitions.

Also, let me say that I fully agree that God is NOT the sum of the persons of the Godhead. But I did NOT need your definition to come to that conclusion. The English Bible contains all of the information needed to come to that conclusion.

Somehow you think that the only language that can contain "accurate" information about God is Greek (or Hebrew). Whereas, I believe that God is able to get all that we need to know to us in any language (even when the 'originals' are in another language).
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
I have not been following the thread, so if I have missed something, do not hesitate to point it out to me. That said, I was asked about the matter and here is essentially my response:

I think the issues PPS and Nang are raising are important, but I am not so sure Tambora was implying what Nang and PPS are denouncing in the first place. Depending upon the venue, persons in ordinary conversation may say the Persons of the Godhead work together as long as we are not assuming the Persons of the Godhead are capable of not working together, which is implied, albeit unstated, if one is saying the Persons of the Godhead are cooperating with one another. So it is all about the context wherein discussion is taking place, e.g., in the line at a grocery store, at a family discussion at dinner, in an academic forum, etc.

For the record from the teachings of Scripture, there is but one will in God, not three wills, with each of these three wills within the subsistences of Godhead being independent of the other's will.

Shedd defines the human will as: “that voluntary power of human nature which determines the continuous movement of the soul toward its ultimate reason for living, according to those principles of life which together make up human nature” [Shedd, Essays, 233–234].

I think we can adapt Shedd by defining God's will as: “that voluntary power of the divine nature which determines its eternal movement as the ultimate reason for being, according to those perfect principles of existence (God's attributes) which together make up the divine nature”. (This is a work in progress, so be kind.)

When we speak of "will" we must understand that the will is attached to (belongs to) the divine nature. Natures have wills, not persons. This applies whether speaking of God or human beings. Belonging to the person as a property is the "I", "Thou", "He", that is, the sense of self. So when the Son says, "I do the will of my Father" it is the Person, the "I", that does/acts. Try to keep in the mind this useful memory aid: Natures are, Persons do/act.

Connected to the will is the notion of volition. Volition is the expressive faculty used by the will to carry out its choices through actions in thoughts and deeds. The will chooses the principles determining the how and why of action, volition carries out those choices through individual actions.

Again, will belongs to the divine nature, but there is an "I," "Thou," and "He," owing to the personal properties. Accordingly, The Second Person of the Godhead knows Himself as the Son of the Father, and rejoices in it. Without this personal knowledge He could not have volunteered to make Himself of no reputation. Similarly, Our Lord states in His prayer in Gethsemane, "not my will, but yours be done". From the above, we should know that this is Our Lord's speech in His humanity, for His divine will is not out of alignment with the one divine will that all Persons of the Godhead partake within equally wholly.

In summary, unless Tambora has been implying in her posts (as stated, I have not been following the thread) that there are different wills in the Godhead, which would be falling into tri-theism, speaking of cooperation among the Persons of the Godhead is an acceptable form of speech, given my caveats above, that can be further dissected for more clarity in normal conversation.

Yes, we should all be good theologians, but some of us are not a adept with the language of theology and thusly should be less quick to take another to task when the less informed make infelicitous statements in theological discussions. Unfortunately, some are very scrupulous when it comes to how things are said no matter what the context of the things being said. So when I interact with these folks I take careful pains to construct what I have to say understanding that they will examine each and every word. These persons will not change, and I respect that, adopting my discussion style accordingly. Conducting an edifying discussion requires both parties to attempy to understand the other's methods and modes and try to work within that framework. All too often we are all occasionally guilty of hair-trigger "ready, fire, aim" responses when it comes to matters of the faith

The average person encountering the painfully scrupulous will be taken aback when they stridently point out his or her's less than perfect theological speech. I think there is a time and place for attention to detail, but not in ordinary discourse, especially in a generally anti-Reformed/Calvinistic environment like TOL, where care should be taken to not immediately give offense without warrant. In this topic at hand, had I been active, I would have sought clarification as to another's view about their notions of the will of God first, "One will in the Godhead?" "Three wills?" and proceeded accordingly.

The question I was aksed is exactly why we need theologians. From theologians we are not told what to say, but how to say it in order to avoid falling into error.
icon_wink.gif


If the reader is inclined to dig deeper, I recommend the following as a very thorough (and academically dense) treatment of the entire topic of the will of God: http://www.puritanshop.com/shop/the-two-wills-of-god/

AMR

The direct assertion by Tambora was that such working together by Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was Synergy; and it was originally when confronted about having admitted a Monergistic Soteriology position without realizing it. She then retreated from Soteriology to Theology Proper as a typical Arminian smokescreen to insist Synergy was relative to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

She was corrected many times that sun- and ergon could not pertain to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the manner she insisted, since synergy is contingency and God is Non-Contingent according to His incommunicable attribute of Necessity. This cascades to impugning His Simplicity, for He is not comprised of constituent parts that have such interfunctionality according to merely sun-.

This must all be according to perichoresis, not synergy. She refuses to relinquish usage of the term because she employed the base-word fallacy of looking merely at a simplified meaning of synergy.

This is no small issue; and has gone far beyond ignorance to willful stubborn usurpation of historical doctrine, etc.

This makes Father, Son, and Holy Spirit into individual beings. It's at least functional and conceptual Tritheism. And this is one of the huge reasons I have opposed modern professing Trinitarians, since they're not actually Classical Trinitarians by passive ignorance at the very least.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
If you translate the Greek words sun and ergon, does it come out to be the English "work together"?

Wrong question. You're looking to apply a term relative to creation upon the uncreated God. It doesn't matter that it does. It matters whether it can be applied to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It can't.

Go learn something instead of being an authority unto yourself on all things in your egomaniacal false autonomy.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Indeed, you guys are so puffed up with YOUR definitions.

No, it's the inverse. You're so puffed up you think you can use any word you choose in any manner you wish, even if it isn't exegetically or lexically or theologically correct. And these aren't OUR definitions, but the linguistic definitions and usages of centuries and centuries of the Christian faith by EVERY valid theologian and historian.

You're so filled with pride you think you get to assign whatever word or meaning sounds good to you as a novice non-linguist and non-theologian. And when others adhere to the centuries of appropriate words and meanings, you want to impugn US as the ones who are puffed up.

Also, let me say that I fully agree that God is NOT the sum of the persons of the Godhead. But I did NOT need your definition to come to that conclusion. The English Bible contains all of the information needed to come to that conclusion.

More puffed-up-ness from you, as always. I could list dozens of English words in your Bible that your idolatrous heart would define completely incorrectly, and it would include straight-forward words like sin and repentance and righteousness and faith and grace and mercy and love.

Somehow you think that the only language that can contain "accurate" information about God is Greek (or Hebrew). Whereas, I believe that God is able to get all that we need to know to us in any language (even when the 'originals' are in another language).

And that's why you don't know what ANY Greek anarthrous noun means. You're so arrogant, you think your language determines what everything means.
 

Tambora

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I think the issues PPS and Nang are raising are important, but I am not so sure Tambora was implying what Nang and PPS are denouncing in the first place.
That's probably because I have not said what they say I have said.



Depending upon the venue, persons in ordinary conversation may say the Persons of the Godhead
work together as long as we are not assuming the Persons of the Godhead are capable of not working together, which is implied, albeit unstated, if one is saying the Persons of the Godhead are cooperating with one another.
Ahhhhh, a fresh breath of common sense.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
You do not believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ever work together despite your insistence.


This is fun.

It would be impossible for them NOT to work together. That's not Synergy, that's because of perichoresis.

Why do you despise truth so vehemently with such vitriolic hate for the Christian faith and God Himself?
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
That's probably because I have not said what they say I have said.

Ahhhhh, a fresh breath of common sense.

He doesn't yet know that you insisted on synergy for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit rather than perichoresis.

We've said EXACTLY what you've said. You said synergy for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber

Keep attempting to gloat, Tritheist. You've made God contingent by applying synergy to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And you're accountable because you've been corrected.

No, it doesn't matter that synergy partially means that. It's a term of contingency within creation. And it's not applicable to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by definition without assailing God's attributes, which you are glad to do as an idolator.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Wrong question. You're looking to apply a term relative to creation upon the uncreated God. It doesn't matter that it does. It matters whether it can be applied to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It can't.
I'm sure that you're aware (since you're the smartest person ever) that there are many anthropomorphism's in the Bible that are there for our feeble human mind and are never meant to bring God down.

Even the great PPS said this: "The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit work together. It's called perichoresis."

But of course, we cannot just say "work together" for that would be too simple for your brilliant mind.

Go learn something instead of being an authority unto yourself on all things in your egomaniacal false autonomy.
You are truly the most arrogant person on earth.
 

Right Divider

Body part
No, it's the inverse. You're so puffed up you think you can use any word you choose in any manner you wish, even if it isn't exegetically or lexically or theologically correct. And these aren't OUR definitions, but the linguistic definitions and usages of centuries and centuries of the Christian faith by EVERY valid theologian and historian.

You're so filled with pride you think you get to assign whatever word or meaning sounds good to you as a novice non-linguist and non-theologian. And when others adhere to the centuries of appropriate words and meanings, you want to impugn US as the ones who are puffed up.

More puffed-up-ness from you, as always. I could list dozens of English words in your Bible that your idolatrous heart would define completely incorrectly, and it would include straight-forward words like sin and repentance and righteousness and faith and grace and mercy and love.

And that's why you don't know what ANY Greek anarthrous noun means. You're so arrogant, you think your language determines what everything means.
You're such a blowhard.
 
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