I think the Bible is true and that is what we go by. That is how he made the chart.
Sequence of events in end time eschatology
- Thread starter Zadok899
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I think the Bible is true and that is what we go by. That is how he made the chart.
This Charming Manc
Well-known member
Pre mil, has only been a strong view post darby and schofield in the last 150 years, before that amil was pretty standard across most christians.
Yes premil does respond to the view that Revelations is a literal book of future prophecy of vision in continual order.
However imho that assumption is highly flawed for numerous reasons.
Yes premil does respond to the view that Revelations is a literal book of future prophecy of vision in continual order.
However imho that assumption is highly flawed for numerous reasons.
This Charming Manc
Well-known member
This Charming Manc
Well-known member
as a fellow a mil I would differ mildy on some points, as all positions there is infinite variations.
HisServant
New member
Roman Catholics are Amil.. so are Lutherans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Anglicans and most Baptists.
Pre-mil are mostly dispensationalists which are predominant only in the southern part of the US.
Off the top of my head, its pretty evident that the Amil position is held by more than 80% of Christians world wide.
Zeke
Well-known member
The only end of days one should be concerned about is our own temporal life in this body of decay, every life time goes through tribulation which involves the kingdom of God within them Luke 17:20-21. The outward is a deception which has followed the same pattern/seasons through the centuries with fear being it's main source of conversions within the populace of the poor and ignorant classes being herded by such drama being played out by those of the priest class able to direct the literal script they know is Esoteric, and like Jesus mentioned it doesn't come with observation! end times eschatology is a racket based on fear porn.
Interplanner
Well-known member
The biggest mistake in "end times" frenzies is to mix 1st century Judean events with the final day of judgement. Ie, to mix Mt24A and B. There is total confusion if this is not kept separate. Everything that pertained to Israel as a nation was concluded in the 1st century.
That's why Mt 21's parable of the vineyard says God would give the vineyard to another people (ethnos) which is not any of the ethnicities, but rather the believers who are from all of them.
NT passages in plain language say nothing about modern Israel, only about the day of judgement. Rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, Heb 9, 2 Pet 3, 2 Tim 4.
That's why Mt 21's parable of the vineyard says God would give the vineyard to another people (ethnos) which is not any of the ethnicities, but rather the believers who are from all of them.
NT passages in plain language say nothing about modern Israel, only about the day of judgement. Rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, Heb 9, 2 Pet 3, 2 Tim 4.
Were the rest of the dead resurrected at the end of the thousand years?
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5 NKJV)
Zadok899
New member
Too many posts to thank people individually, but I did want to say thanks to the people who commented on these outlines. Its quite helpful to get feedback to verify if what I understand is correct.
It is interesting to see where people differs on the points, I guess I would like to have lists that capture the minimum possible information to define that eschatological view, to ensure maximum agreement amongst people with those views.
One poster suggested that the millennium rule in premillenialisim only included the Christians who had been martyred. I was not able to find any books that agree with this, and a stack overflow discussion seems to confirm that the millennium includes all Christians.
There are two people who have commented on millennialism, its a helpful starting point. I think I need to put some effort in to comparing the comments with what a book or so states about amillennialism.
Interestingly no posts from people holding to post-millennialism.
It is interesting to see where people differs on the points, I guess I would like to have lists that capture the minimum possible information to define that eschatological view, to ensure maximum agreement amongst people with those views.
One poster suggested that the millennium rule in premillenialisim only included the Christians who had been martyred. I was not able to find any books that agree with this, and a stack overflow discussion seems to confirm that the millennium includes all Christians.
There are two people who have commented on millennialism, its a helpful starting point. I think I need to put some effort in to comparing the comments with what a book or so states about amillennialism.
Interestingly no posts from people holding to post-millennialism.
Zadok899
New member
Interesting to consider. I know for example, AOG are officially doctrinally pre-mil. I feel pre-mil is fairly standard amongst the Pentecostal denominations, if this is true, then based on this wikipedia page, there are 464 million pentecostals.
So I would approximate that perhaps the numbers for pre-mil are closer to 30% of Christians.
NB: Obviously going by denominations is not a perfect way to measure, but it is a neat way to approximate.
Like American Democrat politicians, you will tell any lie no matter how outrageous if it leads to souls being lost.
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Nobody is going hungry in the world?
Zadok899
New member
This is certainly one of the challenges or difficulties with the a-mil view, however my hope with this discussion is to enable us to clearly define the various positions. Descent into debate on which one is right—although certainly quite interesting—is a little off topic.
I'm guessing your referring to my response to your post and I'm hoping your reference to not finding "books" that referenced my offering didn't include the Bible as there are multiple passages that would seem to underscore the thought I offered. Here are two:
Rev20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The word here translated as "beheaded" might be better translated by the Hebraism "cut off" meaning to be killed ... which would put it in agreement with this passage from the same book:
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
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Challenges? It demonstrably shows it is not true.
That and the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ did not descend and let a sharp sword come from his mouth as he wipes out the muslims(which are still here in case you didn't notice) shows that Paul is correct in Israel falling.
copy pasted from BibleStudyTools.com
Behold, a king will reign in righteousness, and princes will rule with justice. (Isa. Isa. 32:1).1
Daniel received detailed revelation concerning the timing and reality of the rule of the saints. It does not occur until after the Beast is destroyed, just as the book of Revelation records (Rev. Rev. 19:20). We know from Revelation Rev. 19:1 that the Beast is destroyed at the Second Coming of Christ, therefore the reign of the saints has not yet come:
Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever. (Dan. Dan. 7:17-18)
I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. (Dan. Dan. 7:21-22)
Then the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him. (Dan. Dan. 7:27)
Prior to their co-rule with Christ, they will undergo tribulation at the hands of the Beast (Rev. Rev. 13:7, Rev. 13:15; Rev. 15:2; Rev. 20:4). They are not just given a vague spiritual kingdom subject to ridicule by unbelievers who cannot tell it even exists. No! The kingdom and dominion is both spiritual and literal and there will be no question on the part of anyone concerning its reality when it arrives! In the gospels, Jesus indicated that faithful servants would be given authority over cities (Luke Luke 19:17-19). Numerous times James and John sought the position of being on the left and right of Jesus—positions of shared rulership (Mtt. Mat. 20:20 cf. Mark Mark 10:37). In the book of Revelation, Jesus said that overcomers would sit with Him on His throne, even as He then sat on His father’s throne:
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. (Rev. Rev. 3:21+)
This particular verse is very important because it shows the high degree of authority believers will have with Jesus. It also indicates that in approximately A.D. 95, when Jesus spoke these words, He was not on His own throne! This is a very important point to understand: the throne He will be taking is the throne of David (Mtt. Mat. 25:31) and it is on earth. Although we have been made kings and priests (or a kingdom, priests to God—see commentary on Revelation 5:10), our reign is future and initially upon the earth:
And have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth. (Rev. Rev. 5:10+) [emphasis added]
One of the criticisms that has been leveled against the premillennial understanding of the Millennial Kingdom is that it only lasts 1,000 years, whereas Scripture is replete with passages indicating Christ’s kingdom will be eternal.
The amillennialist sees a conflict here and insists that the eternality of Christ’s kingdom does not permit any place for a thousand year reign on earth. Calvin’s reason for rejecting the premillennial view as his concept that the thousand year reign nullified the eternal reign of Christ. Did the premillennialist limit the reign of Christ to a thousand years, his contention that “their fiction is too puerile to require or deserve refutation” would be true. However such is not the case. An important Scripture bearing on the discussion is 1 Corinthians 1Cor. 15:24-28.2
The solution to this problem is found in recognizing the transition which Paul records in 1 Corinthians 1Cor. 15:24-28. Christ rules in the millennium until the Great White Throne Judgment, when death itself is finally vanquished (Rev. Rev. 20:14+ cf. Rev. Rev. 21:4+). Then, He places His kingdom under the Father. Yet His rule continues into the eternal state, where there is a new heavens and a new earth (Rev. Rev. 21:1+) and where the saints will continue to co-rule with Him for eternity (Rev. Rev. 22:5+).
[1Cor. 1Cor. 15:24, 1Cor. 15:28] does not mean the end of our Lord’s regal activity, but rather that from here onward in the unity of the Godhead He reigns with the Father as the eternal Son. There are no longer two thrones: one His Messianic throne and the other the Father’s throne, as our Lord indicated in Revelation Rev. 3:21. In the final Kingdom there is but one throne, and it is “the throne of God and of the Lamb” (Rev. Rev. 22:3
Notes
1 “The princes who shall rule in justice prefigure those who will rule and reign with Christ in the coming Kingdom (Luke Luke 22:30; 2Ti. 2Ti. 2:12; Rev. Rev. 2:26-27; Rev. 3:21).”—Merrill F. Unger, Unger’s Commentary on the Old Testament (Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers, 2002), Isa. 32:1.
2 J. Dwight Pentecost, Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1958), 491-492.
3 Alva J. McClain, The Greatness Of The Kingdom (Winona Lake, IN: BMH Books, 1959), 513.
11.5. Millennial Reign of Messiah 11.6.1. Judgment by the Saints
Behold, a king will reign in righteousness, and princes will rule with justice. (Isa. Isa. 32:1).1
Daniel received detailed revelation concerning the timing and reality of the rule of the saints. It does not occur until after the Beast is destroyed, just as the book of Revelation records (Rev. Rev. 19:20). We know from Revelation Rev. 19:1 that the Beast is destroyed at the Second Coming of Christ, therefore the reign of the saints has not yet come:
Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever. (Dan. Dan. 7:17-18)
I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. (Dan. Dan. 7:21-22)
Then the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him. (Dan. Dan. 7:27)
Prior to their co-rule with Christ, they will undergo tribulation at the hands of the Beast (Rev. Rev. 13:7, Rev. 13:15; Rev. 15:2; Rev. 20:4). They are not just given a vague spiritual kingdom subject to ridicule by unbelievers who cannot tell it even exists. No! The kingdom and dominion is both spiritual and literal and there will be no question on the part of anyone concerning its reality when it arrives! In the gospels, Jesus indicated that faithful servants would be given authority over cities (Luke Luke 19:17-19). Numerous times James and John sought the position of being on the left and right of Jesus—positions of shared rulership (Mtt. Mat. 20:20 cf. Mark Mark 10:37). In the book of Revelation, Jesus said that overcomers would sit with Him on His throne, even as He then sat on His father’s throne:
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. (Rev. Rev. 3:21+)
This particular verse is very important because it shows the high degree of authority believers will have with Jesus. It also indicates that in approximately A.D. 95, when Jesus spoke these words, He was not on His own throne! This is a very important point to understand: the throne He will be taking is the throne of David (Mtt. Mat. 25:31) and it is on earth. Although we have been made kings and priests (or a kingdom, priests to God—see commentary on Revelation 5:10), our reign is future and initially upon the earth:
And have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth. (Rev. Rev. 5:10+) [emphasis added]
One of the criticisms that has been leveled against the premillennial understanding of the Millennial Kingdom is that it only lasts 1,000 years, whereas Scripture is replete with passages indicating Christ’s kingdom will be eternal.
The amillennialist sees a conflict here and insists that the eternality of Christ’s kingdom does not permit any place for a thousand year reign on earth. Calvin’s reason for rejecting the premillennial view as his concept that the thousand year reign nullified the eternal reign of Christ. Did the premillennialist limit the reign of Christ to a thousand years, his contention that “their fiction is too puerile to require or deserve refutation” would be true. However such is not the case. An important Scripture bearing on the discussion is 1 Corinthians 1Cor. 15:24-28.2
The solution to this problem is found in recognizing the transition which Paul records in 1 Corinthians 1Cor. 15:24-28. Christ rules in the millennium until the Great White Throne Judgment, when death itself is finally vanquished (Rev. Rev. 20:14+ cf. Rev. Rev. 21:4+). Then, He places His kingdom under the Father. Yet His rule continues into the eternal state, where there is a new heavens and a new earth (Rev. Rev. 21:1+) and where the saints will continue to co-rule with Him for eternity (Rev. Rev. 22:5+).
[1Cor. 1Cor. 15:24, 1Cor. 15:28] does not mean the end of our Lord’s regal activity, but rather that from here onward in the unity of the Godhead He reigns with the Father as the eternal Son. There are no longer two thrones: one His Messianic throne and the other the Father’s throne, as our Lord indicated in Revelation Rev. 3:21. In the final Kingdom there is but one throne, and it is “the throne of God and of the Lamb” (Rev. Rev. 22:3
Notes
1 “The princes who shall rule in justice prefigure those who will rule and reign with Christ in the coming Kingdom (Luke Luke 22:30; 2Ti. 2Ti. 2:12; Rev. Rev. 2:26-27; Rev. 3:21).”—Merrill F. Unger, Unger’s Commentary on the Old Testament (Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers, 2002), Isa. 32:1.
2 J. Dwight Pentecost, Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1958), 491-492.
3 Alva J. McClain, The Greatness Of The Kingdom (Winona Lake, IN: BMH Books, 1959), 513.
11.5. Millennial Reign of Messiah 11.6.1. Judgment by the Saints
You might have added in the revelation of the man of lawlessness with the trib...for he is the instigator of the great trib....Christians oughta be preparing for that not the rapture