ECT Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[genuineoriginal]

Not if you claim there's going to be a future kingdom here on planet earth. Only Futurists make such a claim.

Historicists claim Jesus returns once, and then that's it. There's a judgement, the unbelievers go to hell, and the believers to to heaven.

I arrived at the eschatological conclusions I speak of here over 15 years before I even heard of Historicism.
My conclusions match many of the ones espoused by the authors whose works are featured on the website where the following information was obtained.

You are mistaken about what Historicists claim, since there are different conclusions that are reached by individuals that use the Historicism method of interpretation.

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What is Futurism? What is Historicism?

To put it another way, Historicism is the method of interpreting Biblical prophecy by comparing history to the prophecy in question. Historicists believe that prophecy is history pre-written. Therefore prophecy can be understood by looking to the past to discover what has, and hasn't, been fulfilled. Historicism, as a school of thought, like futurism, contains many differing opinions as to details of prophetic interpretation. It is not a system that must stand or fall by its ability to withstand criticism. It is a method of interpretation that allows its adherents to continually re-evaluate their opinions as they grow in their understanding of both history, and the Bible.
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The following image is from a Historicist website.
Please note that after the long period of Jewish tribulation comes the restoration of Israel and then the 1000 years.

Here is part of an article from a Historicist describing the great tribulation:

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THOUGHTS on the Great Tribulation by Pastor G.R. Dawe, D.D.
. . .
From these considerations we conclude that the great tribulation:

1. Is not a climax but a continuing discipline.
2. Is not an unprecedented catastrophe crammed into a tribulum of seven years at the end of this dispensation of time, but rather a disciplinary instrument necessary to the ultimate achievement of God's purpose for His people in this age of grace.

That "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet," (Matt. 24:15 cf.. Dan.11:31) is not something yet to be fulfilled in some future temple, but rather is an event that has already taken place in the ordered history of Jerusalem and God's chosen people.
Is not merely "great" in intensity, but also in duration.
. . .
Thus this age has been one of great tribulation. For the Jew it began with the desolation of their beloved Jerusalem and continued through a long period of dispersion and many pogroms, including Auschwitz. And who can say that their tribulation is over? Not until they shall say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." (Matt. 23:38, 39)
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And here is a description of the coming Kingdom from a Historicist.

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Light For the Last Days CHAPTER XXI

Our Lord likens Himself to a nobleman who went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom (that is, the investiture of a kingdom as from a higher court), and to return, to reward the faithful, punish the unfaithful, destroy the rebellious, and establish His dominion. After the ascension the angels assured the disciples, whose minds were full of the Messianic kingdom, about the time of which they had just been inquiring-a kingdom which, as they well knew, was yet to be established on earth-that this same Jesus who had just ascended to heaven in the clouds in their sight would in like manner, i.e., visibly and personally, return. The hope of the kingdom on earth was not lost, only postponed by the intervening age of gospel grace to the Gentile world When "the times of the restitution of all things arrive," the heavens which received the risen Son of man will retain Him no longer; He returns to reign on the earth, where He was despised and rejected, to be crowned where He was crucified, to set up His throne where Pilate set up the cross, and inscribed over it, "This is the King of the Jews."

And He returns not alone. Scripture constantly states that in His train are to be, not only His mighty angels, but His risen and transformed saints. "When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels"; "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints"; or, as Zechariah expresses it, "The Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. . And every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even come up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts."

The share which His saints are to have in His coming kingdom was often alluded to by our Lord when on earth, and is perhaps too little dwelt upon in the joyous anticipations of His people. Its definiteness, its tangible character, remove this hope widely from the vague and shadowy anticipations of "heaven," which constitute the main idea entertained by many of their future portion. Heavenly rest is not all that will be brought to us at the coming of the Lord, but blessed and active ministry, high and holy service. "To you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven," means, as the context shows, rest from persecution, not an inglorious and uninteresting repose, but a glorious living and reigning with Christ. His risen saints are to share with Him the active administration of His kingdom, the actual government of the world.
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[genuineoriginal]

The New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant.

No it didn't.

You didn't address the question of whether you know that there are more than two covenants, yet.

Do you know that there are more than two covenants?

 

[Danoh]

In 66AD, the Great Jewish Revolt occurred.

A few months later in 66AD Cestius Gallus was sent by Rome, and surrounded Jerusalem. But then with no explanation, he retreated.

Josephus wrote the following about the event:

"It then happened that Cestius was not conscious either how the besieged despaired of success, nor how courageous the people were for him; and so he recalled his soldiers from the place, and by despairing of any expectation of taking it, without having received any disgrace, he retired from the city, without any reason in the world." (Wars, II, XIX, 6,7)

It was at this time that the Christians in Jerusalem fled to Pella.

Eusebius wrote about it:

"The members of the Jerusalem church by means of an oracle, given by revelation to acceptable persons there, were ordered to leave the city before the war began and settle in a town in Peraea called Pella." - Book III, 5:4

This lines up perfectly with what Jesus said about 35 years earlier:

(Luke 21:20-21) “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

If Gallus would have stayed there, there would have been no way for the Christians to leave the city and flee to the mountains.

After the Christians fled to the mountains of Pella, Rome sent Vespasian and his son Titus.

The siege of the city began in 66AD and came to a complete end in 70AD when the temple was destroyed. This event lasted 3.5 years.

The Jews who escaped to Masada, and who later killed themselves in 73AD have nothing to do with the prophecies given by Jesus.

The destruction of the temple with not one stone left standing upon another, was the culmination of the ages. The Old Covenant completely vanished then, and the New Covenant was fully in place (Heb 7:12)

The following is not a knock, but an observation, from within that form of Mid-Acts that I more or less hold to (meaning, whenever I study a subject, I abandon Mid-Acts, but find it still evident as sound when done with whatever the particular subject of my study was).

Anyway, consider it appears from your school's assertions that the view of your school was arrived at by a means similar to today's Acts 2 supposedly "Dispensationally based" self-styled "Prophecy Preachers."

Where today's "Prophecy Preacher" asserts current events are "a fulfillment of Prophecy" your school's writers and writers way back when, like Eusebius, for example; appear to have done something similar way back then - asserted current events way back when had been a fulfillment of Scripture after "that which is perfect" had "come" to pass, 1 Cor. 13:10.

 

[tetelestai]

Where today's "Prophecy Preacher" asserts current events are "a fulfillment of Prophecy" your school's writers and writers way back when, like Eusebius, for example; appear to have done something similar way back then - asserted current events way back when had been a fulfillment of Scripture after "that which is perfect" had "come" to pass, 1 Cor. 13:10.

Eusebius didn't claim current events of his time were the fulfillment of prophecy.

Eusebius was born in the mid 200's and died in the early to mid 300's. The event Eusebius commented on (the flight to Pella) took place about 200 years prior to Eusebius wrote about it (in 66AD). That's a preterist point of view, not a "current events" point of view.

Hagee, Lindsay, LaHaye, etc. all claim events in their lifetime are fulfillment of OT prophecies.

That's not what Eusebius did.

 

[tetelestai]

after "that which is perfect" had "come" to pass, 1 Cor. 13:10.

The verse you give was written before 70AD.

(1 Cor 13:10 NIV) but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

This is exactly what Heb 8:13 says.

70AD marked when the New Covenant became 100% fully in place, and when the Old Covenant completely disappeared.

 

[tetelestai]

including Auschwitz. And who can say that their tribulation is over? Not until they shall say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." (Matt. 23:38, 39)

This is where you and the author of the article you supplied show your ignorance of the Bible.

"Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" is from Psalm 118

The Israelites/Jews were required to make three pilgrimages to Jerusalem each year for the three feasts that required it.

The Jews who lived in Jerusalem would line the streets as the out-of-towners entered the city, and they would sing Psalm 118.

You can see it in Matthew 21 when Jesus entered the city for the Passover.

In Matthew 23:39 Jesus tells the Pharisees they would not see Him again until they said "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord".

That meant the next feast day that required a pilgrimage.

The next feast day that required a pilgrimage to Jerusalem that took place after Matt 23:39 was Pentecost.

Guess what happened on Pentecost?

(Acts 2:6) When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken.

That's what Jesus meant when He said you won't see Me again until you say "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord".

You, like the Dispensationalists, think Matt 23:39 means someday in the future, every Jew in unison, is going to say "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord".

 

[Danoh]

Eusebius didn't claim current events of his time were the fulfillment of prophecy.

Eusebius was born in the mid 200's and died in the early to mid 300's. The event Eusebius commented on (the flight to Pella) took place about 200 years prior to Eusebius wrote about it (in 66AD). That's a preterist point of view, not a "current events" point of view.

Hagee, Lindsay, LaHaye, etc. all claim events in their lifetime are fulfillment of OT prophecies.

That's not what Eusebius did.

You may have missed my point as to the similarity - men looking to current events within the history they are ascribing Prophecy as having been fulfilled.

Case in point: it was some thirty years after 1948 or so, that Lindsay wrote of 1948 as having been a fulfillment of Prophecy.

Hagee was 8 years old in 1948. He asserted his notion many years after 1948.

Likewise with Grant Jeffery: who was born in 1948.

And so on...

 

[genuineoriginal]

You, like the Dispensationalists, think Matt 23:39 means someday in the future, every Jew in unison, is going to say "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord".

Just as preterists are right about some of the events that happened in the past, the futurists are also right about some of the events that will happen in the future.

Where you make your mistake is in rejecting the future, while futurists make the mistake of rejecting the past.

The children of Israel will say "Blessed is HE (Jesus) who comes in the name of the Lord (יהוה)."
This is not some empty formulaic reciting of the Psalm as you would have it, but a real acknowledgment of Jesus as the Messiah sent by God.

 

[Danoh]

Just as preterists are right about some of the events that happened in the past, the futurists are also right about some of the events that will happen in the future.

Where you make your mistake is in rejecting the future, while futurists make the mistake of rejecting the past.

The children of Israel will say "Blessed is HE (Jesus) who comes in the name of the Lord (יהוה)."
This is not some empty formulaic reciting of the Psalm as you would have it, but a real acknowledgment of Jesus as the Messiah sent by God.

Not so; the Mid-Acts Dispensationalist (in general), holds to much as having taken place in that first century.

Mid-Acts; at least as I see it, is not strictly futurist.

Rather, it ends up an aspect (a balanced one, I believe) of all the schools of thought without having studied them first.

 

[tetelestai]

The children of Israel will say "Blessed is HE (Jesus) who comes in the name of the Lord (יהוה)."
This is not some empty formulaic reciting of the Psalm as you would have it, but a real acknowledgment of Jesus as the Messiah sent by God.

Nope.

It's a reference to Psalm 118

It's what the Jews did for the three pilgrimage feasts.

It's called the Hallel.

"a procession of the people led by the High Priest carried palm branches and the other fragrant branches processed, singing the Hallel Psalms 113-118, from the Temple through the Water Gate to the pool of Siloam. " SOURCE

Compare to the Passover pilgrimage in Matthew 21

 

[tetelestai]

Not so; the Mid-Acts Dispensationalist (in general), holds to much as having taken place in that first century.

Like what?

 

[Danoh]

Like what?

Within the Mid-Acts I more or less hold to and that many I have known hold to: the completed canon of Scripture; Cessation of Divine Intervention outside of the Spirit through the Written Word; etc.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Nope.

It's a reference to Psalm 118

It's what the Jews did for the three pilgrimage feasts.

It's called the Hallel.

"a procession of the people led by the High Priest carried palm branches and the other fragrant branches processed, singing the Hallel Psalms 113-118, from the Temple through the Water Gate to the pool of Siloam. " SOURCE

Compare to the Passover pilgrimage in Matthew 21

You seem to have missed what I said.

The children of Israel will say "Blessed is HE (Jesus) who comes in the name of the Lord (יהוה)."
This is not some empty formulaic reciting of the Psalm as you would have it, but a real acknowledgment of Jesus as the Messiah sent by God.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You seem to have missed what I said.

The children of Israel will say "Blessed is HE (Jesus) who comes in the name of the Lord (יהוה)."
This is not some empty formulaic reciting of the Psalm as you would have it, but a real acknowledgment of Jesus as the Messiah sent by God.

Men have been doing that for 2000years.

look what the verse really says.

Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


Men will see Jesus when they say blessed are they who come in the name of the Lord.

Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

From Pentecost onward they saw Christ--

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You have over two thousand years between the first and last things.

They all refer to the time of the end of the 3.5 years.

Dan 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:

LA

Yes, history proves that the first of the three times was over two thousand years ago.

No that is the opinion of men which is not based on the word of God.

Look at the previous text which has not yet occurred.--

Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
Dan 11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Dan 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
Dan 11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
Dan 11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
Dan 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

LA

 

[tetelestai]

This is not some empty formulaic reciting of the Psalm as you would have it, but a real acknowledgment of Jesus as the Messiah sent by God.

It was both when Jesus entered Jerusalem for the Passover feast:

(Matt 21:9) And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

The next time the Jews sang "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" after Jesus told them that they would not see Him again until they did so, was Pentecost.

Read Acts 2

 

[genuineoriginal]

Men have been doing that for 2000years.

Jews have been doing an empty formulaic reciting of the Psalm.
They have not accepted Jesus as the Messiah.

There is a difference, but you don't seem to understand that.

look what the verse really says.

Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Who was Jesus talking to?

 

[genuineoriginal]

No that is the opinion of men which is not based on the word of God.

It is an opinion based on careful study of the word of God and historical fulfillment.

Look at the previous text which has not yet occurred.--


Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
Dan 11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Dan 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
Dan 11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
Dan 11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
Dan 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:

This was already fulfilled during the time of Antiochus Epiphanes.

and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

That is the time of the great tribulation of the children of Israel that began with the destruction of the second temple as prophesied by Jesus who quoted these very words in the prophecy.

and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

LA

Yes, this has not happened yet.

 

[tetelestai]

Look at the previous text which has not yet occurred.--

Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
Dan 11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Dan 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
Dan 11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
Dan 11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
Dan 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Every event in Daniel 11 happened already.

Ask any Jew, go to any Jewish website, and they will tell you that every event in Daniel 11 happened already.

Only Christian Futurists claim Daniel 11 hasn't happened yet, nobody else makes such a claim.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Ask any Jew, go to any Jewish website, and they will tell you that every event in Daniel 11 happened already.

They are still looking for the messiah, and we should take their word on it?