Satan, Inc (TOL's heretic's list)

[Choleric]

As Solomon says, there's nothing new under the sun. The last two posts are prime examples of why real, intelligent discussion on theology message boards is by and large absent. Folks like L and C are a dime a dozen, parroting the party line like good little robots, offering the same knee-jerk mantras, never actually addressing issues raised. Notice that not a single issue raised was actually addressed above...

Now you are lying. I addressed your post specifically. I explained in great detail why your system of interpretation is being ignored and why it is the correct, biblical thing to do. Truth is not fluid. It is easily discernible. We are to stand on it, as opposed to always be second guessing what God said and being blown around with every wind of doctrine. You didn't address the Scriptures that I posted that say this very thing, because those scriptures tell believers to ignore people like you.

Thinkers who actually understand the propositions raised in my last post remain silent. Thinkers understand truth when they hear and see it. Rather than presenting personal opinions and never actually addressing the issues, let me gently suggest, L and C, that you study the structure of propositional logic, brush up on truth criteria and its importance to intelligent discussion, read up on epistemology and the laying out of warranted belief. Once you understand these things you'll be better equipped to engage in constructive criticism.

Haters gonna hate. Chirpers gonna chirp. Thinkers gonna think.

Nothing new under the sun.

You are acting like a spoiled brat. I addressed your claims precisely and exactly. You are the one who has taken the conversation in the direction of false accusation and ignoring of the points actually made.

Your theological system is wrong and is being brushed aside. Not because we are unable to understand it but because we can read , and what we read in the bible clearly shows us that you are a heretic, spouting lies and false doctrine.

Meanwhile, we have "gone on to perfection", "not laying again the foundation." That is direct command from God's word. You want us to go back and lay another foundation on a gospel that "is not another".

You will likely expose your inability to deal with scripture with more name calling and "professing yourself to be wise" and we will continue to stand on the Truth, while you pout like a fool

 

[patrick jane]

As I am sure you are probably already aware, this circular logic very quickly becomes circular justification, which then becomes impervious to questioning or doubt. And THIS is the real reason so many of these "traditional" Christians hold to it. They are, to put it bluntly, more interested in the illusion of their own impervious righteousness than they are interested in the truth of Christ. And this is the sad, ugly, fact of what Christianity has become for a lot of modern "conservative" (the more appropriate term) Christians.

There is no need for these skeptics and 'outsiders' to be proven false once the circular justification of the 'true believers' has been established and accepted, because that circular justification renders their own understanding absolute. The mere fact that someone else questions it already proves that they are wrong in doing so. So no further investigation of their claims is necessary.

That circular self-justification, in effect, endows those who hold to it with absolute assurance of their own righteousness. Such that there's little need to bother exploring any other perspective. As there is no more righteous perspective to be found.

It's like a 'velvet trap' that's just too cushy and comfortable to bother escaping.

You aren't going to get any answers to these questions. Because the people you are asking are unable to recognize your questions as anything other than a wrong-headed attack on their unquestionable correctness. The mere fact that you are asking them is proof that you are in the wrong.

What you are up against is not "circular reasoning", it's circular self-justification which blinds those who engage in it to ANY reasoning but their own. They simply will not cognate your questions.

:chuckle:

 

[Bociferous]

Your claims stand diametrically opposed to the 3rd grade reading of the Scriptures.

Hey, thanks for letting us know what grade you're in, C. Shouldn't you be in school today?

 

[Bociferous]

Sounds like Boci wishes to present himself as a bonafide, dyed in the wool "Pseudo-intellectual" type of poster.

PureX is the only one who's shown an understanding of the issue at hand. How can you continue to post drivel like this and not be embarrassed?

Boci, didn't you say you dropped out of school after the third grade or something?

What is amazing to me GM is that nothing but venom flows constantly from you, yet the powers that be here allow it. I haven't read a single post of yours in which you actually contributed to intelligent discussion. Maybe it's okay to spew garbage as long as it's directed to heretics? The saddest thing is that you've lived 65 years and this is all you have to contribute to religious discussion. (and I'm not making fun of old people, I'm almost your age...)

 

[Bociferous]

Lon,

Universalism has been address, there is a history so it's not like it is 'something new' and that is what AMR was addressing by his comments and 2) It isn't likely that you or any other can articulate better than has already been done and finally 3) Rarely has any challenge to orthodoxy ever been conceded, it would be incredible and extraordinary that any would entertain what is marked as heresy, no?

My last post was the long version not for your or “C”s sake, but for the sake of anyone reading in the thread whom the Lord has blessed with an actual desire to try to find truth. I’ve found that once someone’s position is published for all to see he will defend it to the hilt regardless of its proximity to the truth, its seen on theology boards every day.

Here’s the short version:

A) The position was presented that refusing to even consider an interpretation of the Scripture because it’s different than one’s own is closed-minded and logically circular .

B) You and C’s responses were essentially to inform me that I’m wrong because I stand outside tradition and tradition is true.

Do you see the problem here?

I don’t understand why some of the thinkers here don’t take folks like you and C under their wing and mentor you in methods of cogent argument. Seems to me this would increase the overall intellectual value of the board. Obviously you have no ears to hear me—I’m a heretic—but if someone doctrinally compatible with you tells you the same things you’d doubtless listen.

 

[Choleric]

Satan, Inc (TOL's heretic's list)

Hey, thanks for letting us know what grade you're in, C. Shouldn't you be in school today?

Wow, your exegesis is amazing. Thanks for dropping all that knowledge on me. With your detailed points and the way you handled each of the scriptures, I now more clearly see your point.

Apparently you aren't up for a debate, you just want to spout and have everyone melt at your feet rather than respond intelligently.

I realize you are at a disadvantage. My IQ is probably close to double yours.

 

[Bociferous]

Wow, your exegesis is amazing. Thanks for dropping all that knowledge on me. With your detailed points and the way you handled each of the scriptures, I now more clearly see your point.

Apparently you aren't up for a debate, you just want to spout and have everyone melt at your feet rather than respond intelligently.

I realize you are at a disadvantage. My IQ is probably close to double yours.

I'm guessing it's more like three or four times.

 

[Choleric]

B) You and C’s responses were essentially to inform me that I’m wrong because I stand outside tradition and tradition is true.
.

Why do you continue to spout these falsehoods? You are not being rejected because we blindly follow tradition, but because we can read. How old are you. Why is it so hard for you to grasp such a simple proposition? Tradition means nothing to me. Truth matters to me. I don't get my direction from a pope or preacher. I get Truth from scripture. It has nothing to do with tradition.

Undoubtedly, you will not comprehend this distinction and you will continue to spout this foolishness and accuse me of blindly following "tradition".

You mistake my beliefs for traditional because the majority of people reading the scriptures come to the same conclusion, which is that your position is wrong.

Do you see the problem here

Yes, me and everyone else :thumb:

 

[Zeke]

Now you are lying. I addressed your post specifically. I explained in great detail why your system of interpretation is being ignored and why it is the correct, biblical thing to do. Truth is not fluid. It is easily discernible. We are to stand on it, as opposed to always be second guessing what God said and being blown around with every wind of doctrine. You didn't address the Scriptures that I posted that say this very thing, because those scriptures tell believers to ignore people like you.




You are acting like a spoiled brat. I addressed your claims precisely and exactly. You are the one who has taken the conversation in the direction of false accusation and ignoring of the points actually made.

Your theological system is wrong and is being brushed aside. Not because we are unable to understand it but because we can read , and what we read in the bible clearly shows us that you are a heretic, spouting lies and false doctrine.

Meanwhile, we have "gone on to perfection", "not laying again the foundation." That is direct command from God's word. You want us to go back and lay another foundation on a gospel that "is not another".

You will likely expose your inability to deal with scripture with more name calling and "professing yourself to be wise" and we will continue to stand on the Truth, while you pout like a fool

Alvin Boyd Kuhn pretty much destroyed the traditional mantra in the Shadow of the Third Century, better do some more research on the Roman invention of the carnal Christ.
Matt 11:11 along with Galatians 4:23-28 shows the death burial and rebirth is Metaphorical/Esoteric teaching regarding the two aspect of man 1Cor 15:45, Luke 15:45.

 

[Lon]

You are not a 'maverick' because you are frightened to death of being wrong.

:chuckle: Yeah, that's it. lain:

The only thing mavericks have that you lack, is courage.

Er, I'm not going to be mean, but not even in your wildest dreams. "Maverick" was the nice term. Don't make me say what I really mean. I was being gracious at that.

And to avoid your having to face that fact, you will gladly sacrifice them to your own slander and lies.

Er, I've seen you. You are a guy that should never pick a stupid fight.

 

[Choleric]

Alvin Boyd Kuhn pretty much destroyed the traditional mantra in the Shadow of the Third Century, better do some more research on the Roman invention of the carnal Christ.
Matt 11:11 along with Galatians 4:23-28 shows the death burial and rebirth is Metaphorical/Esoteric teaching regarding the two aspect of man 1Cor 15:45, Luke 15:45.

If he did "destroy" traditional Christianity, why have I never heard of him and traditional Christianity is still alive and well? :AMR:

 

[Zeke]

If he did "destroy" traditional Christianity, why have I never heard of him and traditional Christianity is still alive and well? :AMR:

I guess you don't do much research outside the westernized christian box, maybe you're just to comfortable with the traditions of men.

 

[Lon]

Alvin Boyd Kuhn pretty much destroyed the traditional mantra in the Shadow of the Third Century, better do some more research on the Roman invention of the carnal Christ.

Even atheists have called this stupidity garbage lain:
Need some more time off for further blasphemy?

Matt 11:11 along with Galatians 4:23-28 shows the death burial and rebirth is Metaphorical/Esoteric teaching regarding the two aspect of man 1Cor 15:45, Luke 15:45.

A LOT of what you've been telling me makes sense now. I'll shake dust at this point. :wave:

 

[Choleric]

:rotfl: This is the standard line from heretics. You guys all think that by attempting to shame me into being inside some box that I will suddenly throw away years of study and become one of you.

I am not in any box. I am a bible believing Christian, who believes what I believe because of what the bible says. I don't care about tradition, or this Alvin Kuhn character. I don't care about the gospel of jude or the apocrypha. I don't care about some church that claims it's the one true church. I don't care what the early church fathers did, or wrote. I don't care what the dead sea scrolls say. I don't care what evolutionists say. I don't care what Oprah says, or politicians say. I don't care what my wife thinks, or my pastor.

I only care what God's word says. (<---notice the period) If you can't prove something to me using Scripture, you are wasting your time. You are not alone. The entire world thinks believing the bible is archaic. That's ok. I don't mind. It is what it is....

:wave2::thumb::carryon:

 

[Bociferous]

Greetings C-man, thanks for your spirited response.

Why do you continue to spout these falsehoods?

I dunno. I guess I just like to get verbally abused by 3rd graders with high IQs.

You are not being rejected because we blindly follow tradition, but because we can read.

Yeah, you know I sort of suspected that was the real reason all along, C.

How old are you.

87

Why is it so hard for you to grasp such a simple proposition?

I’m guessing it’s because I’m 87?

Tradition means nothing to me. Truth matters to me.

Sure, you’re all about truth. I noticed that from day one about you.

I don't get my direction from a pope or preacher. I get Truth from scripture. It has nothing to do with tradition.

Right. Straight from the Bible. You’re one of those guys who snarls at tradition when it tries to sneak up on you and it takes off running in the other direction.

Undoubtedly, you will not comprehend this distinction…

For some reason I’m having trouble following you here, C.

You mistake my beliefs for traditional because the majority of people reading the scriptures come to the same conclusion, which is that your position is wrong.

Okay. Now I get it. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

C-man, you're a hoot and a half.

 

[Choleric]

Greetings C-man, thanks for your spirited response.


I dunno. I guess I just like to get verbally abused by 3rd graders with high IQs.


Yeah, you know I sort of suspected that was the real reason all along, C.


87


I’m guessing it’s because I’m 87?


Sure, you’re all about truth. I noticed that from day one about you.


Right. Straight from the Bible. You’re one of those guys who snarls at tradition when it tries to sneak up on you and it takes off running in the other direction.


For some reason I’m having trouble following you here, C.


Okay. Now I get it. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

C-man, you're a hoot and a half.

At least you have a sense of humor. :thumb: But unless you want to address the distinction between tradition and personal conviction, and the scriptures I posted that teach us to stand on truth, then I guess we are done here.

It's been fun though. :wave:

 

[Lon]

For some reason I’m having trouble following you here, C.

Not funny or worse, sad.

C-man, you're a hoot and a half.

Okay, just sad, then lain: Why do you guys even post? As I said, Universalists don't even have to preach. You need never say a thing by logic and reason of your position. Generally, I think Universalism an excusing coping mechanism. Why else bring your garbage to another's yard? Isn't it really because you are insecure in your theology? There is literally no reason to even discuss it if you were correct. Universalism says it all works out okay in the end, all of it. There is no need to even think Spiritually for the Universalist or anybody else. This conversation is unnecessary if you are right, regardless if I adamantly disagree with you or not (and of course I do). If you were sound, you'd need never argue with a soul over the matter. Aren't you showing yourself unstable? Tossed on the winds of 'hopeful' doctrine that isn't too secure in your own mind? What is the point?

 

[freelight]

lets expand consciousness a bit.......

lets expand consciousness a bit.......

Hi all,

freelight had formerly written:

Reality is what actually exists, what IS. This (here/now) is reality, it is ever-present, all-pervading, all-encompassing. It includes the whole of life, existence and consciousness,....all of infinity. All That IS, and all that ever will be, actual and potential.

Now as far as what religious truth, concepts, beliefs or ideals you hold, that is 'relative' and certainly 'debatable'

Since 'God' is omnipresent, He/She is not limited to any religious definition or culture, not even by anyone's imagination! Since Deity is INFINITE. Consider what is infinite. It is impossible for the finite to hold, mold or define infinity.

Choleric responds with my following responses in order:

This is all a bunch of nonsense. God has revealed Himself and verified His Word through prophetic fulfillment and signs and wonders.

What I've written still holds,....on the ontological level of reality, ....remember...Reality includes all, is all,.....and more (all that is 'actual' and 'potential'). Our ideals, concepts, beliefs, interpretations are more or less relative assumptions conditioned by various factors, personal preferences and 'point of view',...and that's a fact. Look around.

Now the Reality that Alone is ABSOLUTE, we may call it 'God' or 'Deity', which is pure Spirit, pure Consciousness, pure Space, etc. (whether this Deity is with or without 'personality'). You're just using your own 'theological-template' and culture in which to interpret or explain 'God', - don't forget...every religious tradition and cult has their own theology, mythology and holy writings. They are all attempting to explain, describe and articulate the purpose of life and story-telling is one of the primary means humans use to communicate such things.

You have set aside His only true Word with a smorgasbord of your own invention, with whatever you "think is right" (Prov 16:25). Sadly, you will reject God's only revelation, that of His Son, who died for you, in your place.

This is an assumption on your part, since you have no idea of the scope, grasp or extent of my own theology, but only little mini bytes perceived here and there. I suggest you look at the bigger picture of reality, if you put down your rose-coloured glasses a bit, and look outside the paramaters of your preferred and 'accustomed' beliefs.

You will for all eternity regret your blatant disregard for the Truth you claim to seek.

No regrets here, since along Life's journey we learn by trial & error, research and development, with the will to learn and propser, and until there is the ultimatum of total perfection or finality, there will ever be the evolution of creation, expansion of consciousness, learning.....carrying on into infinity. Remember I spoke of 'infinity' above,...its something to perhaps contemplate.

It is right there in front of you, waiting to be embraced. Christ is long-suffering to you, not wanting you to perish, but to repent of your false belief system and take the only eternal life being offered.

I'm well aware of the various offerings of both the ancient followers of Jesus....and modern day pop evangelical Christianity (and its various denominations), and weigh the entire tradition and esoteric teachings of the Master in the balance. If I have a false-belief system, and am not being diligent to discover a better or truer way, then that is my suffering (or limitation), but perhaps I will be the wiser as Spirit reveals the better way and I follow that path, ever progressing forward in knowledge. Is this also your attitude towards learning and growth?

Please repent of your false religion freelight. Your pride is going to take you to hell.

Until I feel the need to 'change my mind'(repent) about anything, I'll be treading along the path of life just fine thank you - I see no 'pride' in having the resolve and integrity to think for myself, and ever be true to life as life leads me, since the reality of existence is LIFE Itself, and this Life is living itself thru me, and as me. This is 'reality' being individually experienced. Whatever religious schools and spiritual traditions I happen to study or even practice along the journey are but coincidental and provisional.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

A wonderful verse - I see no problems with this verse, in fact nothing in the gospel of John could condemn me, if that's what your going for. John's gospel is the more gnostic/spiritual gospel, as it focuses more on spiritual knowledge as a means of having(or re-cognizing, intuiting) eternal life, the divine life. Nowhere have I ever denied the Christ or the value of the Jesus-story, although I may approach Jesus in a more esoteric, gnostic or allegorical way, besides being open to consider the various traditions about Jesus, and other sources for his teachings outside of the NT canon. - there are other writings you know

The old saying "you cant put God in a box" still holds. You can conceptualize the Infinite in many ways, or assume different religious faith-traditions as templates to approach and relate to 'God', but that's about it,...while the Absolute Reality is simply what always IS and is what always will BE (while all else arising in consciousness is but the play of 'God')....it comes and goes, is subject to change....while only what is unchanging in its essence remains behind all changing forms. Stay with the 'essence' and follow its inner light and wisdom, and all should go well for you.

 

[Lon]

Until I feel the need....

Yep lain:

 

[Zeke]

Even atheists have called this stupidity garbage lain:
Need some more time off for further blasphemy?
A LOT of what you've been telling me makes sense now. I'll shake dust at this point. :wave:

Yet the historical record calls you're religious assumptions stupidity, And if you think Paul is teaching two distinct siblings instead of the two aspect within man you are brainwashed Lon.