Salvation Through Mary?

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The church at Rome teaches that no one attains salvation except through Mary:

"Since faith is the foundation, the source, of the gifts of God by which man is raised above the order of nature and is endowed with the dispositions requisite for life eternal, we are in justice bound to recognize the hidden influence of Mary in obtaining the gift of faith and its salutary cultivation - of Mary who brought the "author of faith" into this world and who, because of her own great faith, was called 'blessed.' 'O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee" (ADIUTRICEM (On the Rosary), Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, promulgated on September 5, 1895).​

That teaching is contradicted by what the Apostle Peter said here:

"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved"
(Acts 4:10-12).​

Why can't those who attend the church at Rome understand that salvation comes from the Lord Jesus Christ alone?
 
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patrick jane

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The church at Rome teaches that no one attains salvation except through Mary:
"Since faith is the foundation, the source, of the gifts of God by which man is raised above the order of nature and is endowed with the dispositions requisite for life eternal, we are in justice bound to recognize the hidden influence of Mary in obtaining the gift of faith and its salutary cultivation - of Mary who brought the "author of faith" into this world and who, because of her own great faith, was called 'blessed.' 'O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee" (ADIUTRICEM (On the Rosary), Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, promulgated on September 5, 1895).​

That teaching is contradicted by what the Apostle Peter said here:

"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved"
(Acts 4:10-12).​

Why can't those who attend the church at Rome understand that salvation comes from the Lord Jesus Christ alone?
That's the reason I no longer consider myself catholic -
 

beameup

New member
Isn't Mary considered to have been "born without sin" by the Catholic Church?
So, if Mary was conceived "without sin", doesn't it follow that her mother conceived miraculous as well?
 

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
The church at Rome teaches that no one attains salvation except through Mary:

"Since faith is the foundation, the source, of the gifts of God by which man is raised above the order of nature and is endowed with the dispositions requisite for life eternal, we are in justice bound to recognize the hidden influence of Mary in obtaining the gift of faith and its salutary cultivation - of Mary who brought the "author of faith" into this world and who, because of her own great faith, was called 'blessed.' 'O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee" (ADIUTRICEM (On the Rosary), Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, promulgated on September 5, 1895).​

That teaching is contradicted by what the Apostle Peter said here:

"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved"
(Acts 4:10-12).​

Why can't those who attend the church at Rome understand that salvation comes from the Lord Jesus Christ alone?

Hey Jerry,

I think you are misunderstanding that 19th century text. What the Pope meant in that letter is similar to what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:22:

"I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." (NKJV)

Is that Salvation through Paul?

Why couldn't Paul understand that salvation comes from the Lord Jesus Christ alone?

Was he confused? Was he a heretic? Was he contradicting Acts 4 as well?

No, he wasn't. Paul meant the same thing that the Pope meant. Salvation can be said to be through Paul or Mary because the world can come to know Jesus Christ through him or her. And in Mary's case, the world came to know Jesus Christ in an even fuller sense because she gave birth to Him and it was through her that He was literally brought into this world.

That's why salvation can be said to come through her. Because the Savior entered the world through her.

Here's an official teaching of the Catholic Church taken from paragraph 432 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Notice that the official teaching of the Church is not what you think it is:

"The name "Jesus" signifies that the very name of God is present in the person of his Son, made man for the universal and definitive redemption from sins. It is the divine name that alone brings salvation, and henceforth all can invoke his name, for Jesus united himself to all men through his Incarnation, so that "there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (emphasis mine)

Peace.
 

beameup

New member
Hey Jerry,

I think you are misunderstanding that 19th century text. What the Pope meant in that letter is similar to what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:22:

"I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." (NKJV)

Is that Salvation through Paul?

Paul was speaking of his ministry while he was still alive. Paul calls himself THE Apostle to the Gentiles.
Nowhere in the New Testament does it describe Mary's "ministry". Here is the only mention of Mary outside the Gospels:
The elder [John] unto the elect lady [Mary] and her children [brothers & sisters of Jesus], whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth - 2 John 1:1
 

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
Isn't Mary considered to have been "born without sin" by the Catholic Church?
So, if Mary was conceived "without sin", doesn't it follow that her mother conceived miraculous as well?

Hey beameup,

No. That doesn't necessarily follow.

Catholics believe in a powerful God and believe that He has the power to preserve one person from the stain of sin if He wants to. That doesn't mean Mary's parents were preserved from the stain of sin...nor did they need to be.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it this way in paragraph 491:

"The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin."

Notice that Mary didn't do anything...God did. He gave her that grace as a gift and He has the power to do so.

Peace.
 

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
Paul was speaking of his ministry while he was still alive. Paul calls himself THE Apostle to the Gentiles.

That doesn't change the fact that Paul said he saves some.

Well, is that Salvation through Paul?

Nowhere in the New Testament does it describe Mary's "ministry".

And that means what?

Here is the only mention of Mary outside the Gospels:

Sorry..I don't know why the quote from 2 John 1:1 didn't make it into the quote.

Even if it is the only mention of Mary...so what? What would that prove?

But I disagree with your interpretation. You think John's second letter was written to Mary?

I've never heard of that before. I suppose it could be but it isn't really clear that it is written to just one person let alone to Mary.

Many commentaries and biblical scholars believe it is written to a church or group of churches.

Peace.
 

beameup

New member
Where I'm located, the people worship Mary and pray to her.
Maybe they didn't get the "memo". :rotfl:

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all [except Mary :nono: ] have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; - Romans 3:22-23
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Hey Jerry,

I think you are misunderstanding that 19th century text. What the Pope meant in that letter is similar to what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:22:

"I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." (NKJV)

No, that has nothing to do with what Paul said. Let us look at this again:

"Since faith is the foundation, the source, of the gifts of God by which man is raised above the order of nature and is endowed with the dispositions requisite for life eternal, we are in justice bound to recognize the hidden influence of Mary in obtaining the gift of faith and its salutary cultivation - of Mary who brought the "author of faith" into this world and who, because of her own great faith, was called 'blessed.' 'O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee" (ADIUTRICEM (On the Rosary), Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, promulgated on September 5, 1895).​

No one is saved apart from "faith." And what the church of Rome says in the above quote makes it plain that no one can have the knowledge of God which comes as a result of "faith" EXCEPT THROUGH MARY."

It cannot be denied that Rome teaches that no one without exception can be saved apart from Mary. Rome's teaching even is worse than that when we consider what that church teaches here:

"As she suffered and almost died together with her suffering and dying Son, so she surrendered her mother's rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race. And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race"
( The Church Teaches, Documents of the Church in English Translation, by the Jesuit fathers of St. Mary's College).​

The Scriptures make it plain that redemption only comes as a result of the Lord Jesus' death upon the Cross and Mary did not die upon the Cross:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).​

It is not true that Mary, together with Christ, has redeemed the human race! Anyone with the least bit of spiritual discernment knows that what Rome teaches about Mary is false.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Can you tell us how that salvation from the Lord became yours?

Paul and those with him answered that question in the following way:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house"
(Acts 16:30-31).​

Samie, do you think that salvation comes through Mary?
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
I believe God selected Mary to be the mother of Jesus because of Joseph.
 

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
No, that has nothing to do with what Paul said.

Actually, it does. The principle is that just like Paul can save some (even though it is only Jesus that saves), we can say Mary or even you or me save some in the sense that he/we/she can bring Jesus Christ to others.

Let us look at this again:

"Since faith is the foundation, the source, of the gifts of God by which man is raised above the order of nature and is endowed with the dispositions requisite for life eternal, we are in justice bound to recognize the hidden influence of Mary in obtaining the gift of faith and its salutary cultivation - of Mary who brought the "author of faith" into this world and who, because of her own great faith, was called 'blessed.' 'O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee" (ADIUTRICEM (On the Rosary), Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, promulgated on September 5, 1895).​

You should actually read the entire letter in its context. The Pope is recommending devotion to Mary and praying the rosary. But he also says "Let each one weigh for himself, moreover, how fitting is this practice and how fruitful to himself;"... In other words, each person can decide for themselves whether or not they want to pray the rosary or not. Catholics are not required to pray the rosary or have a certain level of devotion to Mary. His words here are not binding on Catholics in the sense that he is making an infallible statement on faith and morals that he intends to be binding on all Christians.

No one is saved apart from "faith." And what the church of Rome says in the above quote makes it plain that no one can have the knowledge of God which comes as a result of "faith" EXCEPT THROUGH MARY."

Because our faith is placed in Jesus who came through Mary. The letter makes that pretty clear when it says:

"we are in justice bound to recognize the hidden influence of Mary in obtaining the gift of faith and its salutary cultivation-of Mary who brought the "author of faith"

It is through Mary that we can receive the gift of faith because it is through her that the "author of faith" (Jesus) came to us.


It cannot be denied that Rome teaches that no one without exception can be saved apart from Mary.

Well, without Mary we don't have Jesus, do we? In that sense, yeah.

In the sense that Mary can save us without Jesus? No way. And the Church doesn't teach that.

Would you please comment on paragraph 432 from the Catechism? You seem to be ignoring that.

Rome's teaching even is worse than that when we consider what that church teaches here:

"As she suffered and almost died together with her suffering and dying Son, so she surrendered her mother's rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race. And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race"
( The Church Teaches, Documents of the Church in English Translation, by the Jesuit fathers of St. Mary's College).​

Assuming that that is official Church teaching, I don't see how that is saying anything other than: Mary cooperated with God's plan as best she could and in that sense it can be said she saves some.

That is the same thing Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 9.

Tell me, how can Paul say that he saves some because he brings Jesus Christ to others and cooperates with God's plan (that's what he was doing, after all) but then we can't say the same thing about Mary when she brings Jesus Christ to the world and cooperates with God's plan in an even fuller sense?

The Scriptures make it plain that redemption only comes as a result of the Lord Jesus' death upon the Cross and Mary did not die upon the Cross:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church plainly teaches the exact same thing:

"Christ paid the price of His own sacrificial death on the cross to ransom us, to set us free from the slavery of sin, thus achieving our redemption." (Catechism of the Catholic Church pg.896)

Omigosh, give me a break. Have you ever met anyone in your life that believes Mary died on the cross for our sins? You obviously are very confused about Catholic teaching if you think Catholics think Mary is a Saviour in the sense that Jesus Christ is our Savior. No Catholics believe that. The Church has never taught that. You are misreading certain Catholic writings and coming to false conclusions.

Address paragraph 432 of the Catechism please. It clearly shows that what you think the Church teaches...she actually doesn't teach.



"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).​

It is not true that Mary, together with Christ, has redeemed the human race! Anyone with the least bit of spiritual discernment knows that what Rome teaches about Mary is false.

Or....you are misunderstanding what the Catholic Church really teaches. Which is the case.

You know, there are free online Catechism's of the Catholic Church where you can actually see what the Church really teaches for yourself.

Last thing: How can Paul say "I might by all means save some." ?

Paul didn't die on the cross, after all.

Peace.
 

beameup

New member
You should actually read the entire letter in its context. The Pope is recommending devotion to Mary and praying the rosary. But he also says "Let each one weigh for himself, moreover, how fitting is this practice and how fruitful to himself;"... In other words, each person can decide for themselves whether or not they want to pray the rosary or not. Catholics are not required to pray the rosary or have a certain level of devotion to Mary. His words here are not binding on Catholics in the sense that he is making an infallible statement on faith and morals that he intends to be binding on all Christians.

Praying to Mary is part of the Mass. "Holy Mary, Mother of God" etc. etc.
Whenever I've heard it, like in the hospitals, it is repeated over and over and over.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Just curious.

In the first century it was common for a son to take up his father's trade. Jesus was a craftsman by nature and spent many more hours each day with Joseph than with Mary.

Joseph must have loved Mary deeply to take on rearing someone else's child. No doubt there was talk on the NNN (Nazareth News Network). Anyway, Joseph must have been a really good dad and Jesus turned out to be a fine young man, I'm sure his mom was proud of her son.

Joseph would have been the significant person in Jesus' young life.
 

Eagles Wings

New member
Praying to Mary is part of the Mass. "Holy Mary, Mother of God" etc. etc.
Whenever I've heard it, like in the hospitals, it is repeated over and over and over.
Some parishes may say a Rosary before or after Mass, but it is not part of the Rubrics of the Mass. BB can correct me if I'm wrong.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You should actually read the entire letter in its context.

The context changes nothing about what is said here:

"Since faith is the foundation, the source, of the gifts of God by which man is raised above the order of nature and is endowed with the dispositions requisite for life eternal, we are in justice bound to recognize the hidden influence of Mary in obtaining the gift of faith and its salutary cultivation - of Mary who brought the "author of faith" into this world and who, because of her own great faith, was called 'blessed.' 'O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee" (ADIUTRICEM (On the Rosary), Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, promulgated on September 5, 1895).​

Here we see that Rome teaches that no one can have the knowledge of God EXCEPT THROUGH HER.

Since it is by "faith" that a person comes to the knowledge of God then Rome is teaching that no one can have faith except through Mary and hence no one can be saved except through her. That is why we read:

"None, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee."

That idea is directly contradicted by what Peter said here:

"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved"
(Acts 4:10-12).​
 
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Bright Raven

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Acts 4:12 King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
 

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
Praying to Mary is part of the Mass. "Holy Mary, Mother of God" etc. etc.
Whenever I've heard it, like in the hospitals, it is repeated over and over and over.

Hi beameup,

The prayer that you are referring to is called the "Hail Mary". It is a devotion to Mary and focuses on key events in the life of Jesus.

It would be quite a discussion to get into the details but for now you should know that it is NOT a part of the Mass. It just isn't in there. Sometimes, some congregations in some places might say one together at the end of the Mass or something...but they are just adding that in and it is not a part of the Mass nor is it required.

Catholics are not required to pray the Hail Mary.

If you've heard people praying it at hospitals they are doing that because they want to, not because they are required to.

Peace.
 
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