We know.
ECT Ryrie's doctrine of two peoples and two programs
- Thread starter Interplanner
- Start date
Abram was from Ur of the Chaldees which was in the area of ancient Sumer. He was a descendent of Noah's son Shem and therefore Semitic, not Persian. Persia was and still is very far to the east of the Fertile Crescent/Mesopotamia. Persians are not Semitic, except for those who descended from Persians who intermarried with Jews during the captivity during the Medo-Persian Kingdom, which was well over a thousand years after Abraham.
Shalom.
Who is the we that you are referring to? Who are you speaking for?
Shalom.
Jacob
Wick Stick
Well-known member
Abraham was Syrian.
And thou shalt speak and say before the LORD thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there... Deu 26:5
You are aware of the primary fulfillment of the Isaiah 9 prophecy? Isaiah fathered a child by one of the temple women. That was the immediate fulfillment (without which Isaiah would have been stoned as a false prophet).
I am not a dispensationalist. But, I think you have thrown the baby out with the bathwater, on this one.
Israel split during the reign of Jeroboam and Rehoboam. The LORD dealt with the two nations separately. A reading of Jeremiah 3 proves this beyond any doubt.
If you are familiar with the history of the Jews, then you know that they descend from the southern kingdom. What of the northern kingdom? It was destroyed beyond being recognizable as a people.
If you follow the prophets, though, they say that the northern kingdom will be resurrected in the last days. That is what Jesus did - it is no coincidence that He hailed from Galilee, or traveled the Decapolis and Trans-Jordan. Not a coincidence that he took 12 disciples to be heads over EACH of the tribes. That He confessed He was sent ONLY to the LOST sheep of the House of Israel (aka the northern kingdom).
The church is the resurrection of that northern kingdom, populated with converts adopted into the family.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Do you believe that the Lord Jesus is God Almighty?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, in the future the house of Israel will be made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (see Jeremiah 31:31-34).
Wick Stick
Well-known member
Gen 17:4 ...My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
We are, via adoption.
And you were doing so well as that post started out...
Genesis 11:28 And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees.
Genesis 11:31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.
Genesis 15:7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
Nehemiah 9:7 Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;
And so on..
And a passage like this last one hereinabove is exactly where our books based Bible "expert" IP, threw the proverbial baby out with the water - in his long ago books based indoctrinated "1000th time" failure to rightly divide the Scripture where these Abram-Abraham "things that differ" are concerned.
At the same time, Wick, your own "father of many nations" mis-fire is also the result of your having failed to go about "rightly dividing the word of truth" as to the distinction between those two same "things that differ" - Abram when he was in UNcircimcision, and Abra-HAM - after - he was Circumcision - both of which are depicted in Romans 4.
And again, in Galatians 3, where STP and his odd fringe group within Mid-Acts in general, come along to throw that one out because their erroneous hybrid of two opposed study approaches into one has basically rendered them unable to see that is exactly what they are doing.
[Insert an STP "oh" at this point.
]Just as this Two-Fold Distinction there in Romans 4 is often thrown out the window by Churchianity in general, that those "things that differ" for example, between Romans 4 and James 2, somehow be reasoned into "harmonizing."
While I am at it, I have just now described the very rule of thumb as an overall basic, foundational error in study approach, the very practice of which resulted in, in some, in what is now basically known as 70ADism - hello Interplanner and your kind's ever endless reasoning of men, absent of one key distinction or another actually there in Scripture all along.
Plessinger also pointed it out in that video study basically against Preterism, but that IP apparently listened to on mute. :chuckle:
But, I've rambled on enough - suffice it to say...
Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Rom. 5: 6-8.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You are wrong because the Scriptures make it clear that in the future all those of the house of Israel will be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
The "fathers" of those referred to as the "house of Israel" were the Jews who were delivered out of Egypt. And those "fathers" were the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And since their "fathers" are the physical descendants of Jacob that means that all those of the "house of Israel" will also be the physical descendants of Jacob. And they will all know the LORD, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, and they shall all have their sins forgiven.
Last edited:
One, you have failed to trace that out not only back to Abraham, but forward from him throughout the OT and via the word "multitude" often used throughout Scripture with reference to the Physical descendents of Jacob.
Two, the sense of said "many nations" is in the same sense as the following...
A Nation..
Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
And yet, Nations...
Genesis 25:16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.
Acts 17: 11, 12.
Wick Stick
Well-known member
I am not ignorant of the fact that Abram was born and lived in Ur during his early life. That, however, does not change the fact that his race was Syrian; not Chaldean, not Sumerian.
Observe:
Genesis 24 And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh: And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell: But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac.
...
And he arose, and went to Mesopotamia, unto the city of Nahor.
...
And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham's brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder.
...
And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padanaram, the sister to Laban the Syrian.
Better check Genesis 17 again, my friend. Abram was re-named Abraham BECAUSE he was made a father of many nations; not because he was circumcised.
Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
And he was circumcised basically right afterwards:
Gen 17:24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
So then Abraham is the father of the uncircumcision - the nations (goyim) - and that is before he is the father of the circumcision.
I can see how it might be confusing that the northern tribes - who were in circumcision - might become the goyim - who were not. I would point you to Jeremiah 3.
Jer 3:6-8
The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
The northern kingdom was put away; divorced. More than that really. She died. After that, the resurrection. But the resurrected version is no more party to the covenant of circumcision. Divorcement and death see to that.
The rest of this seems to be aimed at people other than myself, so I will leave it to them.And again, in Galatians 3, where STP and his odd fringe group within Mid-Acts in general, come along to throw that one out because their erroneous hybrid of two opposed study approaches into one has basically rendered them unable to see that is exactly what they are doing.
[Insert an STP "oh" at this point.
Just as this Two-Fold Distinction there in Romans 4 is often thrown out the window by Churchianity in general, that those "things that differ" for example, between Romans 4 and James 2, somehow be reasoned into "harmonizing."
While I am at it, I have just now described the very rule of thumb as an overall basic, foundational error in study approach, the very practice of which resulted in, in some, in what is now basically known as 70ADism - hello Interplanner and your kind's ever endless reasoning of men, absent of one key distinction or another actually there in Scripture all along.
Plessinger also pointed it out in that video study basically against Preterism, but that IP apparently listened to on mute. :chuckle:
But, I've rambled on enough - suffice it to say...
Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Rom. 5: 6-8.
Wick Stick
Well-known member
You seem to have missed a word, in your reading of the passage.
NOT according to the covenant made with the fathers.
Given that important word, the rest of what you said, actually supports my point. Other than that, my post to Danoh also addresses your point.
Not Jews; Hebrews. Jews would indicate paternity from Judah, which is listed in the same verse as the "house of Judah." The "house of Israel" explicitly excludes Jews from its definition.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Are the fathers of those described as belonging to the house of Israel the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
Of course they were because it was the physical descendants of Jacob who were brought out of the land of Egypt (Jer.31:32).
Therefore, common sense dictates that since the fathers of those described as belonging to the house of Israel were the physical descendants of Jacob then the descendants of those fathers will also be the physical descendants of Jacob!
With those facts in view your ideas easily seen to be in error!
Wick Stick
Well-known member
I'm not sure how to clarify it further for you, Jerry. The new covenant is NOT the old one, and is NOT like it. Your whole theology revolves around this fact, so how do you not see it in this passage?
You know what the Bible calls a man who adopts a child? Father. Not stepfather, or adopted father, or even spiritual father. Just father. Your insertion of "physical descendants" is irrelevant... no, worse, it's a red herring. No such distinction exists in the Bible.
You're as off on that as you were both in what you read into my post and then replied with.
Members of the Body are not adopted. That is just one more of your misunderstandings.
We're not even born again.
Rather, we are quickened.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Then, having been reconciled back unto Him as His children, we are acknowledged as being no more children, but sons, with all the rights and priveleges commensurate with that.
This adult sonship is what our adoption is referring to.
Galatians 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
But His off-spring we already were, prior to that...
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Acts 17: 11, 12.
Wick Stick
Well-known member
Can you not see that they are one and the same thing? The quickening IS the new birth IS adoption IS being born again. Peruse Rom 8:11-15 (emphasis added):
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Things that are the same are not different!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
According to your idea the Fathers (who were brought out of the land of Egypt) adopted those who are referred to as the "house of Israel" (Jer.31:31) despite the fact that those of that house did not even exist at that time!
How did the Fathers adopt them since they didn't even exist?