You have to remember, Roy's culture regards slavery as a positive thing.
Roy Moore: America Was 'Great' During 'Slavery'
- Thread starter jgarden
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In my lifetime, we had the McCarty era, and an FBI director who used his power to covertly destroy anyone who annoyed him. A few good Americans were brave enough to confront them and ultimately prevailed.
McCarthy and Hoover were evil and good at it. Trump is venial and weak. When someone competent gets control of Trumpism, then we will be on the path Russia is taking, the path we very nearly went down.
No he did not say slavery was a positive thing.
Nor did he say that America should return to having slavery as legal in America.
What he said was that at that time, most people still held to family values despite that slavery was going on and legal at the time.
Or to put another way, just because one thing bad is going on doesn't mean everything going on was bad.
Compare to what is going on today ....... There are positive things happening in America even though America says it's legal to murder millions of children.
He's just a dotard, just beat him in 2020.
ClimateSanity
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He didn't say it did.
ClimateSanity
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He can't do that. It might break apart the brainwashing he has submitted to all his life.
ClimateSanity
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And you are missing the point. Saying America was great then doesn't mean slavery was not bad.
Consider this:
What made America great then would greatly improve the lives of black Americans today if the nation had the same values it did back then. Black Americans have suffered the most under the rot of what used to be a virtuous nation.
That's what is meant by Moore. That part of what made us Americans has largely been lost and those times were far greater than today solely on that basis. I dare say that Americans would not have had the moral capacity to finally recognize the horrors of slavery and it's injustice had it not been the great moral nation it was at that time.
ClimateSanity
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You can be nostalgic about a great past without looking past slavery. One doesnt nullify the other.
ClimateSanity
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So, you don't agree that America was as great as freeloader has claimed?
- Black Americans have suffered the most under the rot of what used to be a virtuous nation.
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Apparently "white" conservatives still think that they are in a position to know as to which political party would best represent the interests of "African Americans" than that group themselves!
Put a different way, we are to believe that "African Americans are too stupid to determine as to which Party best represents their own self interests!
ClimateSanity
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I think you are saying that no matter how great America was in other respects, it cannot be called a great nation if slavery is in its midst?
Do you recognize a difference between a nation that has had slavery since it's founding and a nation that decided it needed to be like the rest of the world and started making slavery legal?
Slavery in America started with the colonies. They brought it with them because it was the way things were done in England. England was an immoral country. The whole world was immoral. Democracy was born in Greece which depended upon slavery to support its way of life. Slavery is a very old institution. I say that it isn't possible that any nation could have been founded in that day without the presence of slavery.
You are refusing to call this nation great during this time because of an institution it didn't start and the people of that era had nothing to do with bringing it here .
Do you recognize a difference between a nation that has had slavery since it's founding and a nation that decided it needed to be like the rest of the world and started making slavery legal?
Slavery in America started with the colonies. They brought it with them because it was the way things were done in England. England was an immoral country. The whole world was immoral. Democracy was born in Greece which depended upon slavery to support its way of life. Slavery is a very old institution. I say that it isn't possible that any nation could have been founded in that day without the presence of slavery.
You are refusing to call this nation great during this time because of an institution it didn't start and the people of that era had nothing to do with bringing it here .
And one of those family values was it was ok for us white folks to have those darkies workin' for us.
He is a racist, ignorant, Christian dominionist. He does not belong in the Senate. Let him stay in Alabama
That's not what I said.
I understand Moore's point. We differ on evaluating greatness.
I'm assuming this was for me.
I'm obviously looking at this from a 21st century perspective. We can look back on things with an understanding that people ingrained in that culture didn't have. So yes, I can look back on a society that enslaved a group of people and say it wasn't great. You might consider that unfair, but I feel no need to minimize slavery or qualify things so that I can call America 'great'. Why is that label so important to you?
So are you saying America wasn't great when the constitution was made? Because that was America under slavery.
No, they think the KKK is a positive thing. While similar in some regards, they are two different things. I don't believe Moore respects the KKK.
I remember saying something about neoconservatism and how it seems to have only a future with only white people as conservatives. Neoconservatism is dying.
- Black Americans have suffered the most under the rot of what used to be a virtuous nation.
*********************************************************************************
Apparently "white" conservatives still think that they are in a position to know as to which political party would best represent the interests of "African Americans" than that group themselves!
Put a different way, we are to believe that "African Americans are too stupid to determine as to which Party best represents their own self interests!
I am conservative, but not neoconservative.
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LOL. What a shallow thinker who seems to be ignorant of a lot of US history. The Pilgrims didn't bring slavery to the US. They were completely opposed to it. They brought political ideals that would not be expressed in Europe until a couple of hundred years after they landed here. They also brought the principles of religious freedom seen in John Williams' colony that became Connecticut, which said that every man needs to be free to worship God according to his own conscience, not as the state dictated.
Slavery started in the southern colonies owned, through grants given by the king of England as political favors, to high ranking members of the English nobility. These so-called noblemen sent overseers to build and run their plantations, and forced slavery upon their overseers because they wanted the highest financial return for the least amount of money spent that they could get. They did basically the same thing with the white population they sent to those colonies. They sent the criminal class, pickpockets, convicted prostitutes, convicted theives, etc... to their plantations to work off their debts to society. They also sent the black sheep of the royal classes. They sent the men that had embarrassed their families through their profligacy, the adventurers that thought they could get rich by doing nothing more than walk around and pick up gold off the surface of the earth. So, they sent the people of low moral worth to populate their colonies. Of family men, men of stability, there were very few. This is how slavery got its foothold in the south.
Our form of government came out of the northern colonies who, almost from day one, organized themselves politically and morally. They were almost all married men who brought their families with them, and because of that wanted churches, schools, government, etc... and they began creating that from the very start. They were on the opposite end of the moral spectrum from those sent to colonize the south.
So, by the time the colonies rebelled from England and formed their own country slavery had already been deeply rooted into southern culture and the southern economy. The south depended completely upon slavery for its sustenance and its income. So when the Constitution was created there was a huge uproar over slavery because the north did not want it because they considered it a moral evil, and the south could not survive economically without it. So, what to do?
The issue was so contentious that it was nip and tuck as to whether or not there would even be a United States. The representatives from the southern colonies absolutely refused to accept the total destruction of their economy. They knew it was wrong, but they didn't see any other way to survive. So, then it came down to negotiations. The Southern representatives wanted to claim their slaves were both animals and people for they wanted the slaves to be considered animals but be given the same voting status as a non-slave. So, the northern representatives said, OK. We'll do that for you but we will each vote for every mule, cow, horse, sheep, goat, etc... that we own too. Well, the southern representatives saw that was a losing proposisiton for them because the north had more animals than the south had slaves, and the slave owners wanted the slaves to vote because they would be casting the votes for the slaves. In other words, each slave owner would get to control however many votes as he had slaves. So, that is the origin of each slave only getting a portion of a vote. It was done, not as something against a slave, but to limit the political power of the slave owners themselves.
So, that is how slavery came to exist in the US. If you want to blame someone for it, blame the English nobility who forced it on their plantation overseers. Because by the time the colonies rebelled slavery had been establised for around 150 years in the south, and it was basically impossible to root it out all at once without tremendous suffering on the part of those who had nothing to do with it being established there. And because of that there was a lot of resistance to the idea of it coming to and end and destroying a way of life known for several generations already. In fact, the people alive at that time in the south had never known life without it. It was the only reality they knew.
As to your assertion that I said southern high morals, that is a flat out lie. I said southern gentleman. And that is what they were considered. They had the manners of gentlemen, but their economy was founded upon an evil. It's ironic but true that slavery hurt the white southerners almost as much as it did their slaves. How? Because slavery destroyed morality and self-worth in the whites in the south. Their shell of courtly manners covered a multitude of sins. That doesn't mean they all were scumbags, because there were some slave owners who treated their slaves very well. So well, in fact, that when the Civil War came the blacks often took care of and fed their owners towards the end of the war. They, in fact, often hid their owner's wives and families from Union troops. And, after the war, they often fed and took care of their owner's destitute widows. There was genuine affection between some of the slaves and their owners.
To look back at some of these people and judge them by our standards today is just flat out wrong. They would see as much immorality in today's society as we see in their day. They were people of their time. Just like we are people of our time. Everything is different. The pace of life, the amount of knowledge, how right and wrong are often viewed, and much more. To be so arrogant as to judge people from that time by what we see today, is to be exceedingly arrogant indeed..
Well, if you are touting your family values, and you like the time when slavery was OK, or even better, you like the time when it was OK to treat native Americans as non-people---well you tell me.
I have to post a correction to what I said in my last post. I don't know what happened. I guess my brain blew a gasket, but I woke up this morning and sat bolt upright in bed and had to laugh at what I'd written as it was such an idiotic mistake.
Religious freedom in the US grew out of the beliefs of the Pilgrim's, and the Pilgrim minister Roger Williams, and his Rhode Island settlement. I just seem to have had a brain fart there.
Religious freedom in the US grew out of the beliefs of the Pilgrim's, and the Pilgrim minister Roger Williams, and his Rhode Island settlement. I just seem to have had a brain fart there.