ECT Rome: Mary, Together With Christ, Redeemed the Human Race

Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Cruciform said:
Because it was ultimately the means of Redemption for the human race. The greatest evil of men became the power of God for salvation.
Click to expand...

What proof can you give that she even knew the purpose of the Cross?

Even after His death Mary did not even know that He had risen from the dead (Jn.20:2,9). She thought that the body of the Lord had been taken by men and she said that she didn't know where his body had been taken.

But you assert that she knew that His death was the means of redemption for the whole human race. But there is absolutely no evidence to support that assertion.

Again, you just make up things about Mary from thin air!
 
Cruciform

Cruciform

New member
Jerry Shugart said:
What proof can you give that she even knew the purpose of the Cross? Even after His death Mary did not even know that He had risen from the dead (Jn.20:2,9).
Click to expand...
...and then she found out, correct?

But you assert that she knew that His death was the means of redemption for the whole human race. But there is absolutely no evidence to support that assertion.
Click to expand...
What proof can you give that Mary knew nothing of the purpose of the cross? In any case, I did not say that Mary had a complex understanding of the redemptive purpose of the crucifixion, only that she was willing to facilitate the circumstances that would ultimately result in our Redemption (whether she knew all the details or not). That fact stands as posted.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
R

rstrats

Active member
Jerry Shugart,
re: "What proof can you give that she even knew the purpose of the Cross? Even after His death Mary did not even know that He had risen from the dead (Jn.20:2,9). She thought that the body of the Lord had been taken by men and she said that she didn't know where his body had been taken."

I thought that the Messiah's mother was the person in question. How did Mary M. get involved?
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
rstrats said:
Jerry Shugart,
re: "What proof can you give that she even knew the purpose of the Cross? Even after His death Mary did not even know that He had risen from the dead (Jn.20:2,9). She thought that the body of the Lord had been taken by men and she said that she didn't know where his body had been taken."

I thought that the Messiah's mother was the person in question. How did Mary M. get involved?
Click to expand...

You are right. I made a mistake so I must take back what I said.

Thanks!
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Cruciform said:
What proof can you give that Mary knew nothing of the purpose of the cross?
Click to expand...

The purpose of the Cross is found in the gospel and was not revealed to anyone before Paul:

"Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past" (Ro.16:25).​

The original Apostles did not even know that the Lord Jesus was to die until shortly before the Cross (Lk.18:34) and they did not know that He was going to be resurrected (Jn.20:9).

So there is no evidence that anyone before Paul knew of the purpose of the Cross. There is no evidence that Mary knew the purpose of the Cross until later.
 
R

rstrats

Active member
Jerry Shugart,

re: "The original Apostles did not even know that the Lord Jesus was to die until shortly before the Cross (Lk.18:34) and they did not know that He was going to be resurrected (Jn.20:9)."

Which seems curious because of Matthew 17:22-23: "Now while they were staying in Galilee, Jesus said to them, 'The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up.' And they were exceedingly sorrowful."
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
rstrats said:
Which seems curious because of Matthew 17:22-23: "Now while they were staying in Galilee, Jesus said to them, 'The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up.' And they were exceedingly sorrowful."
Click to expand...

Why would they be sorrowful if they knew the purpose of the Cross?

Besides, later they did not even understand that He was to die (Lk.18:34) and they did not know that He was going to be resurrected (Jn.20:9).

So there is absolutely no evidence that the original Apostles knew the purpose of the Lord's death. It was Paul who first revealed that truth so there is no evidence that Mary understood it at the Cross.
 
Bright Raven

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Acts 4:11-13 New King James Version (NKJV)

11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’

12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus
 
R

rstrats

Active member
Jerry Shugart,
re: "Why would they be sorrowful if they knew the purpose of the Cross?"

Sorry. I was only responding to your comment that the apostles didn't know until just before the crucifixion that the Messiah was going to die . I wasn't addressing your comment about them not knowing the purpose for His death.



re: "Besides, later they did not even understand that He was to die (Lk.18:34)..."

So I wonder what they were sad about in Matthew 17:23?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top