Why do you just ignore what James said in regard to how those who received his epistle were saved?:
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).
Peter wrote the same thing about the new birth:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
Of course you just ignored the words of the Savior spoken to the Jews in the following two verses:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. - 1 Peter 1:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Peter1:1-2&version=NKJV
Of course you just ignored the words of the Savior spoken
Yep, sorry, that is only one question. The library was closing, which interrupted my thoughts.
To try to make a little bit clearer what I am thinking...for a long time I've believed that the exact truth about justification by faith is not one of those things that we find out about this side of the grave. There are many truths surrounding Christ that are exceedingly clear in human terms (the fact that Christ is the divine Son of God, the facts of His birth, death, and Resurrection, the fact that we are saved through Him). But the fact that we are even having these complicated conversations about justification and what it means to walk in Christ may indicate that this is not something the Church is really meant to answer. There are so many ways and phrasings that God uses in the New Testament, and I seriously doubt many of the tidy explanations that human beings on both sides have come up with. If I have been lead by the Spirit in my thinking and my conscience, it is good to have confidence in salvation through Christ alone and not through anything we creatures have done. And I want salvation for others, no matter what they do later in life. But I am wary of simplifying the ideas of faith and salvation and conversion to the point where it becomes possible for some, at least those on the periphary, to assume they are saved when in fact they have not accepted Christ and do not understand what it means to walk in Christ. Might the best and simplest way, a way of childlike humility, be to try to serve others, serve the vulnerable, continue to carry our cross, live a moral live, and everything else Christ implores of us, but not to fully accept either side?
But then, maybe that's just me being me. I'm usually thinking outside the dominant groups, and I'm not making sense 100% of the time. Maybe I was too isolated as a child.
Please understand that I am not espousing relativism on this issue.
I answered the verses from James which you quoted but you answered none of the verses which I quoted which proved that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith and faith alone. You are the hypocrite because the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews disprove your idea that the Jews could not be saved apart from works:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
All you prove is that you are incapable of understanding even the most simple things written in the Scriptures.
To try to make a little bit clearer what I am thinking...for a long time I've believed that the exact truth about justification by faith is not one of those things that we find out about this side of the grave
I don't see anything about "justification by faith" which is difficult to understand. Here Paul explains who are justified and in what way they are justified:
"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).
All those who believe receive the "righteousness of God" and are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
Of course the believer is redeemed by the Lord Jesus' death upon the Cross (1 Pet.1:18-19).
If there is something about this that you don't understand just ask me what that might be and I will try my best to answer you.
Your lukewarm acceptance of scripture is a problem for you.
James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
From St. Paul:
Romans 2:5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God.
[6] Who will render to every man according to his works. [7] To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
And..
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
Your ideas deny those words. If you believe, then believe all of it, not just the parts that appeal to you.
I will answer any point which you make. But you refuse to address the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
Those words of the Lord Jesus prove beyond any doubt that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith plus nothing. And you continue to ignore them. You answer those versesand I will answer anything you want me to answer.
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).
Where are "works" mentioned there?
Let us look at this verse which is found in the "context" of the verse which you quoted:
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (Jas.2:17).
What about the "faith" which is alone when believing the "word of truth" which results in the new birth? That "faith" is not dead because it results in salvation.
James is speaking about what one person can know about another person's faith:
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:17).
Sir Robert Anderson writes, "Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man. In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life" [emphasis added] (Sir Robert Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications, 1978], pp.160-161).
With that in mind we can understand the following verse is saying that Abraham was justified before the Lord by his "faith" and he was justified before man by his "works":
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (Jms.2:24).
Romans 2:5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God.
[6] Who will render to every man according to his works. [7] To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
I will address this again even though you just ignored what I said the first time. The following translation makes the meaning more clear:
"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" (Ro.2:6; KJV).
If a person "continues" in well doing then he will earn for himself eternal life. But if he does not continue in well doing and sins then he is totally dependent on God's "grace" if he is going to be saved.
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident" (Gal.3:10-11).
If you think that your own "works" contributes to your salvation then you haven't believe the "gospel of the grace of God," the gospel which saves.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
It is those who overcome who inherit all things, including the kingdom:
"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:7).
The Apostle John tells us exactly how a person overcomes:
"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith" (1 Jn.5:4).
Now that I have answered three of the verses which you think proves that no one can be saved apart from works you can return the favor and give us your interpretation of the meaning of the following words of the Savior Himself:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
So you're trying to tell us that your verse contradicts God's word that we are justified by works and faith also? Sorry, that excuse won't fly. If you're going to be a Christian, don't be a cafeteria Christian; accept all of His word, not just the parts you like.
So you're trying to tell us that your verse contradicts God's word that we are justified by works and faith also? Sorry, that excuse won't fly. If you're going to be a Christian, don't be a cafeteria Christian; accept all of His word, not just the parts you like.
Your interpretation of the verse contradicts what the Lord Jesus said here:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
You are a cafeteria non-Christian because you refuse to believe these words of the Savior Himself. I addressed the verses which you quoted but you refuse to give your interpretation of the meaning of these two verses.
You obviously remain a "natural man" because you do not understand these things which refer to receiving spiritual life:
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).
Jerry, as long as you try to do your argument by trying to set part of God's word against another part of God's word, you're lost. As God has told you, one is justified by faith and works also.
James' audience is the Diaspora, the twelve tribes scattered abroad, which are Jews.
His audience DOES NOT INCLUDE GENTILES.
Of course it is, but that does not inherently make us the audience of the letters.
He's not talking to us. Let me clarify.
Read the passage from Romans 2 again more carefully.
Spoiler
Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.For there is no partiality with God. - Romans 2:1-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans2:1-11&version=NKJV
Romans 2, when taken at face value, seems to contradict Paul's ENTIRE MINISTRY!
Why?
He is not talking to those in the Body of Christ, and he is not speaking of those who have rejected the gospel of grace.
Paul's audience is those who have never heard the gospel, in other words, those who live isolated from God's word.
In this chapter, Paul is not preaching Lordship Salvation. He's speaking of the man without law who has never heard of Moses or Jesus, who only have the law written on their hearts.
The "unsolicited man."
Gentiles, are not part of Israel, by definition.
Not in dispute.
Incorrect.
See above.
See above.
Nope.
Romans 2 is talking to the Jews and those who have never heard any gospel
Paul's entire ministry goes against Romans 2. The ONLY explanation, aside from Peter sneaking in and writing the chapter, is that Paul is NOT speaking to the Body of Christ.
Paul teaches the Gospel of Grace, not grace plus works. Just in chapter 3, the very next chapter, Paul states that the law condemns ANYONE who is under the law, no matter how well they do, they are condemned.
Keep reading, because now that it's a possibility in your mind, even if you reject it, my position that Paul is not speaking to those in the Body of Christ, but instead those in "deepest darkest Africa," is substantiated:
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them )in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. - Romans 2:12-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans2:12-16&version=NKJV
Jerry, as long as you try to do your argument by trying to set part of God's word against another part of God's word, you're lost. As God has told you, one is justified by faith and works also.
Since you consider yourself such an expert on what the Bible teaches about what a person has to do to be saved then why do you continue to refuse to give us your interpretation of the meaning of the following words of the Lord and Savior?:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
You call yourself a Christian but for some reason you are unable to understand these simple words spoken by Christ.
Sorry, he's in my troll bin for the time being. If you think he actually did something non-trollish, I'd be pleased to discuss it with you, if you'd tell me what it is. But I doubt if anything he can say would invalidate what Jesus, Matthew, and James say.
Sorry, he's in my troll bin for the time being. If you think he actually did something non-trollish, I'd be pleased to discuss it with you, if you'd tell me what it is. But I doubt if anything he can say would invalidate what Jesus, Matthew, and James say.
James' audience is the Diaspora, the twelve tribes scattered abroad, which are Jews.
His audience DOES NOT INCLUDE GENTILES.
Of course it is, but that does not inherently make us the audience of the letters.
He's not talking to us. Let me clarify.
Read the passage from Romans 2 again more carefully.
Spoiler
Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.For there is no partiality with God. - Romans 2:1-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans2:1-11&version=NKJV
Romans 2, when taken at face value, seems to contradict Paul's ENTIRE MINISTRY!
Why?
He is not talking to those in the Body of Christ, and he is not speaking of those who have rejected the gospel of grace.
Paul's audience is those who have never heard the gospel, in other words, those who live isolated from God's word.
In this chapter, Paul is not preaching Lordship Salvation. He's speaking of the man without law who has never heard of Moses or Jesus, who only have the law written on their hearts.
The "unsolicited man."
Gentiles, are not part of Israel, by definition.
Not in dispute.
Incorrect.
See above.
See above.
Nope.
Romans 2 is talking to the Jews and those who have never heard any gospel
Paul's entire ministry goes against Romans 2. The ONLY explanation, aside from Peter sneaking in and writing the chapter, is that Paul is NOT speaking to the Body of Christ.
Paul teaches the Gospel of Grace, not grace plus works. Just in chapter 3, the very next chapter, Paul states that the law condemns ANYONE who is under the law, no matter how well they do, they are condemned.
Keep reading, because now that it's a possibility in your mind, even if you reject it, my position that Paul is not speaking to those in the Body of Christ, but instead those in "deepest darkest Africa," is substantiated:
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them )in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. - Romans 2:12-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans2:12-16&version=NKJV
Since you consider yourself such an expert on what the Bible teaches about what a person has to do to be saved then why do you continue to refuse to give us your interpretation of the meaning of the following words of the Lord and Savior?:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
It's not hard to figure out. James explains it very simply:
James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
So we are justified by faith. And we are justified by works. Your error is not to accept God's word on faith, but rather your refusal to accept God's word on works. In Matthew 25, Jesus very clearly tells you that the way He will decide whether you spend eternity with Him, or with Satan and his angels, depends on your works.
You call yourself a Christian but for some reason you are unable to understand these simple words spoken by Christ.
