ROMANS 1:6 CALLED TO BE SAINTS

[Jerry Shugart]

The saints, the body, will be with Christ forever in the heavenly places.

So when the Lord returns to the earth to set up the kingdom those in the Body will remain in heaven? I can't see how you rationalize that idea with what Paul said here:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).​

The context speaks of meeting the Lord Jesus in the air and that has to refer to those in the Body of Christ being in His vicinity or in His proximity. Therefore, what follows--"so shall we ever be with the Lord"--must also refer to being in His vicinity or in His proximity, and Paul says that that is the way that it will be forever.

That cannot be true if the Lord Jesus is going to be on the earth and those in the Body will remain in heaven.

By the way, you made a good point about Deuteronomy 33:2. But that doesn't change the meaning of what Paul wrote at 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

 

[DougE]

So when the Lord returns to the earth to set up the kingdom those in the Body will remain in heaven? I can't see how you rationalize that idea with what Paul said here:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).​

The context speaks of meeting the Lord Jesus in the air and that has to refer to those in the Body of Christ being in His vicinity or in His proximity. Therefore, what follows--"so shall we ever be with the Lord"--must also refer to being in His vicinity or in His proximity, and Paul says that that is the way that it will be forever.

That cannot be true if the Lord Jesus is going to be on the earth and those in the Body will remain in heaven.

By the way, you made a good point about Deuteronomy 33:2. But that doesn't change the meaning of what Paul wrote at 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

I see your point and cannot explain everything unless I find a passage that does. All I can do is relay what I see from these passages. The body is caught up to heavenly places and when the Lord returns for Israel it is on earth.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I see your point and cannot explain everything unless I find a passage that does. All I can do is relay what I see from these passages. The body is caught up to heavenly places and when the Lord returns for Israel it is on earth.

There is evidence in the Hebrew epistles that those who were addressed were told that they too might be caught up to meet the Lord in the air while they remained alive and the Twelve will sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes in the earthly kingdom.

 

[DougE]

There is evidence in the Hebrew epistles that those who were addressed were told that they too might be caught up to meet the Lord in the air while they remained alive and the Twelve will sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes in the earthly kingdom.

Do you have the verses in mind for the Hebrews being caught up?

The twelve will definitely sit on thrones judging Israel and the nations in the millennium (Matthew 19:28).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Do you have the verses in mind for the Hebrews being caught up?

The Apostle John wrote the following to the Hebrew believers:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

Those who received John's epistles believed that they would be alive when the Lord appears--"when he shall appear...we shall see him as he is."

They were also taught that "when he shall appear... we shall be like him."

There can be no doubt that John was teaching that living saints will put on glorious bodies like the Lord Jesus' body when He appears. The revelation concerning the return of the Lord Jesus according to prophecy will be searched in vain for any teaching that living saints will put on bodies like the Lord's when He returns to the earth because Paul made it plain that it is a mystery truth which only belongs to the Body of Christ:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:51-52).​

Besides that, John also believed that the Lord's appearance was imminent and only His appearing at the rapture can be described as being imminent. When we look at the Lord Jesus' words in the following verse and the Apostle John's response we can understand that John certainly believed that the Lord Jesus could appear at any moment:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12).​

Here is what John said to the Lord Jesus about His words that "I come quickly":

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:20).​

There can be no doubt that John certainly believed that the Lord Jesus could come at any moment so he believed that the appearance of the Lord was imminent.

 

[DougE]

The Apostle John wrote the following to the Hebrew believers:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

Those who received John's epistles believed that they would be alive when the Lord appears--"when he shall appear...we shall see him as he is."

They were also taught that "when he shall appear... we shall be like him."

There can be no doubt that John was teaching that living saints will put on glorious bodies like the Lord Jesus' body when He appears. The revelation concerning the return of the Lord Jesus according to prophecy will be searched in vain for any teaching that living saints will put on bodies like the Lord's when He returns to the earth because Paul made it plain that it is a mystery truth which only belongs to the Body of Christ:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:51-52).​

Besides that, John also believed that the Lord's appearance was imminent and only His appearing at the rapture can be described as being imminent. When we look at the Lord Jesus' words in the following verse and the Apostle John's response we can understand that John certainly believed that the Lord Jesus could appear at any moment:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12).​

Here is what John said to the Lord Jesus about His words that "I come quickly":

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:20).​

There can be no doubt that John certainly believed that the Lord Jesus could come at any moment so he believed that the appearance of the Lord was imminent.

1 John is written about the last days (Isaiah 2:2) when the Davidic kingdom is established at Christ's coming (1 John 2:18); this is the time frame 1 John 3:2 speaks of.

Peter is also written to the remnant of Israel in regard to the last days; in 1 Peter 1:7 Peter speaks of the Lord's coming for Israel to establish the Davidic kingdom on earth. Peter speaks of Israel's salvation being revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5)

The book of Revelation is all about Israel and the end times and his coming to fulfill prophecy for Israel and establish the kingdom and new heavens and earth.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

1 John is written about the last days (Isaiah 2:2) when the Davidic kingdom is established at Christ's coming (1 John 2:18); this is the time frame 1 John 3:2 speaks of.

Where did you ever get such a strange idea? That epistle was written during the time when the present dispensation was in effect and it was written to people living during the time period when the present dispensation was in effect.

But you say that what is written in that epistle applied to an entirely different dispensation.

During the Davidic Kingdom the law will once again be in effect. However, here is what we read in the book of Hebrews:

"For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God" (Heb.7:18-19).​

 

[Right Divider]

Where did you ever get such a strange idea? That epistle was written during the time when the present dispensation was in effect and it was written to people living during the time period when the present dispensation was in effect.

Your problem is that you believe that the Lord changed their calling. The Lord did NOT do that.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your problem is that you believe that the Lord changed their calling. The Lord did NOT do that.

Your problem is that you refuse to believe that their calling was heavenly, as witnessed by the author of the book of Hebrews:

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" (Heb.3:1).​

Or perhaps you haven't read the book of Hebrews yet?

 

[Right Divider]

Your problem is that you refuse to believe that their calling was heavenly, as witnessed by the author of the book of Hebrews:

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" (Heb.3:1).​

Or perhaps you haven't read the book of Hebrews yet?

Their calling was as TWELVE apostles that will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribe of Israel.

So go ahead and spin doctor it any way that you like.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Their calling was as TWELVE apostles that will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribe of Israel.

So go ahead and spin doctor it any way that you like.

Paul says that after the rapture happens that those in the Body of Christ will be with the Lord Jesus forever:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).​

According to your strange theories those in the Body of Christ will remain in heaven when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth. So according to you Paul was wrong when he said that after the rapture that those in the Body of Christ will be forever with the Lord Jesus.

 

[DougE]

Where did you ever get such a strange idea? That epistle was written during the time when the present dispensation was in effect and it was written to people living during the time period when the present dispensation was in effect.

But you say that what is written in that epistle applied to an entirely different dispensation.

During the Davidic Kingdom the law will once again be in effect. However, here is what we read in the book of Hebrews:

"For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God" (Heb.7:18-19).​

1 John was not written only for the last days but certainly to the remnant of Israel.

Hebrews 7:18-19 is speaking of the better covenant which will be fulfilled in the last days (Ezekiel 36:26-28).

 

[Right Divider]

Paul says that after the rapture happens that those in the Body of Christ will be with the Lord Jesus forever:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).​

According to your strange theories those in the Body of Christ will remain in heaven when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth. So according to you Paul was wrong when he said that after the rapture that those in the Body of Christ will be forever with the Lord Jesus.

Like I said... spin it any way that you like.

You are a fake dispensationalist.

P.S. Is the Lord not omnipresent?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Paul says that after the rapture happens that those in the Body of Christ will be with the Lord Jesus forever:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).​

According to your strange theories those in the Body of Christ will remain in heaven when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth. So according to you Paul was wrong when he said that after the rapture that those in the Body of Christ will be forever with the Lord Jesus.

Like I said... spin it any way that you like.

You are a fake dispensationalist.

P.S. Is the Lord not omnipresent?

Jerry, did you forget?

“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. - Isaiah 65:17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah65:17&version=NKJV

“For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord, “So shall your descendants and your name remain. - Isaiah 66:22 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah66:22&version=NKJV

looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. - 2 Peter 3:12-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:12-13&version=NKJV

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. - Revelation 21:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation21:1&version=NKJV

Or do you just think that the new heaven will be completely uninhabited?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Like I said... spin it any way that you like.

You are a fake dispensationalist.

What I said is more than a spin because it comes straight from Paul. And you just ignored it.

My dispensationalism matches that of the giants of Mid Acts dispensationalism, Sir Robert Anderson, J.C. O'Hair and Cornelius Stam.

Your dispensationalism comes straight from the camp of the Acts 28 dispensationalists.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Or do you just think that the new heaven will be completely uninhabited?

The new heaven is describing the abode of God which is in heaven (compare Rev.21:1 and Rev.21:5-7). Now look at the following verse:

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power" (1 Cor.15:24).​

At the end of the earthly reign of Christ those in the kingdom will be delivered up to God whose abode is in heaven.

 

[Right Divider]

What I said is more than a spin because it comes straight from Paul. And you just ignored it.

Again you hitch your wagon to your understanding of the verse in isolation.

My dispensationalism matches that of the giants of Mid Acts dispensationalism, Sir Robert Anderson, J.C. O'Hair and Cornelius Stam.

Appeal to authority?

Your dispensationalism comes straight from the camp of the Acts 28 dispensationalists.

Nope... But then again, I'm not a one verse wonder like you. I take it ALL into account.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Again you hitch your wagon to your understanding of the verse in isolation.

In isolation? Since it doesn't match your strange ideas you just IGNORE it. Just like you do the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

The Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith and faith alone!

 

[Right Divider]

In isolation? Since it doesn't match your strange ideas you just IGNORE it. Just like you do the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

The Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith and faith alone!

Jerry.... your zealotry is AMAZING!

We were NOT even talking about this topic BUT you cannot resist making EVERYTHING about it.

 

[Cntrysner]

Jerry.... your zealotry is AMAZING!

We were NOT even talking about this topic BUT you cannot resist making EVERYTHING about it.

Is this what Jerry believes?

Jerry believes those under the kingdom message received eternal life when they believed Jesus was the Christ even though they did not know Christ had to die for their sins thus placing them in the body of Christ and receivers of heavenly gifts in Christ not a earthly kingdom.