ECT Roman Catholic Doctrines

[jsanford108]

Infant baptism is not biblical

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

An infant cannot repent. Many denominations perform infant baptisms. The way to salvation changes by infant baptism, it is not biblical. Catholics perform infant baptisms; they preach this falseness, which is a damaging blow to those needing the truth, those who want Jesus to save them.

So, would you posit that every person needs to be able to profess their faith prior to baptism?

Many Catholics try to use Matthew 19:13-14 to support their false doctrine of infant baptism.

13 Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

If the disciples were baptizing infants, as the Catholics claim, why do you think the disciples rebuked the people who brought the little children?
And, why did Jesus place his hands on them but not have his disciples baptize them?
The kingdom of heaven belongs to little children such as the ones brought to him.

I have never heard this claim/explanation, nor is any such clarification given in Scripture.

And if this was the case, which I am not saying it is, how do you know that the children weren't baptized after Jesus corrected the Apostles? No such detail or clarification is given. So, I would argue that both you, and the ones claiming the children were being baptized, are lacking such clarification and are simply adding in their own opinions into Scripture.

Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

Matthew 18:3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 9:41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

You see, infant baptism is not biblical. In fact, infant baptism goes against the Word of God.

Again, you haven't demonstrated this. You keep arguing this point, but fail to show that children being baptized is not biblical.

How do you argue against entire households being baptized? Are infants not part of a household?

 

[jsanford108]

Here is the verse which says "one baptism":

"One Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph.4:5).​

The "one baptism" is the one spoken of at 1 Corinthians 12:13. So if you think that water baptism is the "one baptism" then you must think that the Holy Spirit is no longer baptizing believers into the Body of Christ.

Is that what you believe?

I do think that one baptism is the water baptism. However, that does not negate baptism by the Holy Spirit.

If you say you have faith that I will reply to your post, does that mean you have negating your faith in Jesus? Of course not. You are creating a false equivalency; conjoining two separate events by utilizing the same vocabulary/terminology.

To prepare the people to serve the Lord Jesus:

"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight" (Mt.3:1-3).​

It was necessary for the people to have a change of mind in regard to their sinful life style in order "make ready a people prepared for the Lord" so that they "might serve Him...in holiness and righteousness" (Lk.1:17,74-75).

Right, so why did Jesus get baptized?

He did not need to be prepared, nor alter His way in regards to a sinful life style. So, why did Jesus get baptized?

In fact, before anyone could be baptized with water they had to first believe, as witnessed by what is said here:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).​

Before the eunuch was baptized with water he was already "born of God" because he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).​

You are applying the situation of a single individual universally.

If I was baptized at 10, does that mean that everyone should be baptized at 10?

There can be no doubt that the eunuch received eternal life and was "born of God" before he was baptized with water so we can know that being baptized with water does not contribute in any way to anyone being saved.

Where is this clarification made that water baptism does not contribute to a person being saved?

Again, you seem to be ignoring the words of Christ and the Apostles, who say to be baptized for the inheritance of eternal life. They are not speaking of a spiritual baptism, but a physical act. (Acts 2:38)

It is obvious that since the rite of water baptism was only for those who believed then infants were not to be water baptism.

Again, you have no clarification of this in Scripture. You are placing this view into Scripture, rather that finding it within.

Was the act of circumcision only for Jews who believed in God?

 

[jsanford108]

Again...yes. That is my belief. Baptism is an outward profession of an inward change wrought by the Holy Spirit.

Okay. So, for clarification, I do not think you are lost or not a Christian, or going to hell for such a belief, as many on TOL would say/believe if you ever disagreed with them.

On the topic of baptism, if it is a mere sign, symbolic in nature alone, why does Jesus say that unless a man is born of water and spirit, he cannot have eternal life? (John 3:5) This would seem to be more that just a symbol, since Jesus requires it for eternal life.

 

[God's Truth]

So, would you posit that every person needs to be able to profess their faith prior to baptism?

Of course.

I have never heard this claim/explanation, nor is any such clarification given in Scripture.

I am giving you scriptures.

And if this was the case, which I am not saying it is, how do you know that the children weren't baptized after Jesus corrected the Apostles?

Are you kidding? Read what the scriptures say what happened.


13 Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.


When Jesus placed his hands on them HE WENT ON from there.

No water baptism.

Jesus didn't water baptize anyone; his disciples baptized those who repented.

John 4:2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

No such detail or clarification is given. So, I would argue that both you, and the ones claiming the children were being baptized, are lacking such clarification and are simply adding in their own opinions into Scripture.

Again, you haven't demonstrated this. You keep arguing this point, but fail to show that children being baptized is not biblical.

How do you argue against entire households being baptized? Are infants not part of a household?

I gave you scripture where PEOPLE BROUGHT LITTLE CHILDREN to Jesus AND NO children were baptized; the apostles told them to go.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I do think that one baptism is the water baptism. However, that does not negate baptism by the Holy Spirit.

So you believe that two baptisms are in order now even though Paul said "one baptism"?

Right, so why did Jesus get baptized?

“And the Scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And He was numbered with the transgressors” (Mark 15:28).​

Again, you seem to be ignoring the words of Christ and the Apostles, who say to be baptized for the inheritance of eternal life.

It is you who ignores what the Lord Jesus said about those who receive eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

I wonder what Rome says about the Lord Jesus' words there? Can you find out for me?

Thanks!

 

[john w]

2. Physical baptism is an outward sign proscribed by Christ in the Great Commission to publicly proclaim faith .

No scripture asserts that water baptism, what you term "physical baptism," is an outward sign-you just read that on the net, parroting what others say.

 

[jsanford108]

Of course.

Great.

So, what about mentally handicapped persons? They cannot profess their faith, so should we baptize them? Furthermore, do they go to heaven?

The same with infants. What happens to infants when they are aborted; do they go to heaven?

You agree that obedience is necessary for saving faith. Without repentance and baptism, one cannot inherit eternal life. So, how do either of these example enter heaven, if they do at all?

I am giving you scriptures.

I was speaking of those claiming that the children were being brought forth for baptism. But, even if this were true, Jesus rebukes the Apostles for turning the children away; so your argument fails on either ground.

Are you kidding? Read what the scriptures say what happened.


13 Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.


When Jesus placed his hands on them HE WENT ON from there.

No water baptism.

You are referencing Matthew 19, correct? At no point in the passage are the children brought forth for baptism. So, those who claim this was occurring have no biblical proof.

Your refutation of infant baptism, relying on this passage, has no biblical proof. If there was no baptism occurring or being referenced, then this Scripture passage has no bearing on the topic, due to a lack of context which you claim it bears.

Yes, there was no baptism in this passage. I agree. I have no disagreed at any point regarding this. I have claimed that both you and those who claim that baptism was occurring here are in error.


You are arguing against no one.

I gave you scripture where PEOPLE BROUGHT LITTLE CHILDREN to Jesus AND NO children were baptized; the apostles told them to go.

This Scripture, from Matthew 19:13-15, has no evidence of baptism occurring within it. So, your argument against infant baptism here is not biblical; your argument is lacking biblical evidence.

Try again.

 

[jsanford108]

So you believe that two baptisms are in order now even though Paul said "one baptism"?

No. I am declaring that which is affirmed in Scripture: a baptism (which infers water) is required to inherit eternal life. (John 3:5)

“And the Scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And He was numbered with the transgressors” (Mark 15:28).​

What Scripture, Jerry?

Also, this passage is about the crucifixion, not about baptism in any capacity. Stay on topic, friend.

It is you who ignores what the Lord Jesus said about those who receive eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

You seem quite selective in which quotes of Jesus' you believe and adhere to. As for myself, I am accepting them all, and trying to adhere to all of them.

Reconcile this verse with John 3:5, Jerry. With your logic, Jesus is contradicting Himself. But, with actual logic, we are to obey all that Jesus says. This would include water baptism. So, you have heard Jesus say to be baptized (John 3:5); do you believe it? If so, then you would believe that water baptism is necessary .

I wonder what Rome says about the Lord Jesus' words there? Can you find out for me?

Thanks!

Easy. If you want to find what the Catholic Church believes, it is literally written out in a single book: The Catechism of the Catholic Church. It contains every doctrine, belief, moral teaching, and most practices of the Catholic Church.

So, can I find out? Sure thing. I just have to simply look. I will even put them in quote format for easy reference.

Oh, here we are: Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 101-104;

101 In order to reveal himself to men, in the condescension of his goodness God speaks to them in human words: "Indeed the words of God, expressed in the words of men, are in every way like human language, just as the Word of the eternal Father, when he took on himself the flesh of human weakness, became like men."

102 Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:

You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.

103 For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord's Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God's Word and Christ's Body.

104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God". "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."

Further down, we find paragraph 124:

124 "The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament"96 which hand on the ultimate truth of God's Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God's incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion and glorification, and his Church's beginnings under the Spirit's guidance.

125 The Gospels are the heart of all the Scriptures "because they are our principal source for the life and teaching of the Incarnate Word, our Savior".

Any other questions? I can answer such as these easily.

 

[God's Truth]

So, what about mentally handicapped persons? They cannot profess their faith, so should we baptize them? Furthermore, do they go to heaven?

The mentally handicapped don’t have to repent of their sins to be saved and they don’t have to get water baptized.

The same with infants. What happens to infants when they are aborted; do they go to heaven?

Those who have been given much, much more will be demanded. Those who are given little little will be demanded. There are those who are given nothing.

I was speaking of those claiming that the children were being brought forth for baptism. But, even if this were true, Jesus rebukes the Apostles for turning the children away; so your argument fails on either ground.
You are referencing Matthew 19, correct? At no point in the passage are the children brought forth for baptism. So, those who claim this was occurring have no biblical proof.

That scripture I gave proves that NO ONE was baptizing infants and little children.

Your refutation of infant baptism, relying on this passage, has no biblical proof.

Hahahaha That scripture and many others prove that infant baptism is against the Truth.

 

[jsanford108]

The mentally handicapped don’t have to repent of their sins to be saved and they don’t have to get water baptized.



Those who have been given much, much more will be demanded. Those who are given little little will be demanded. There are those who are given nothing.

So, you agree then that there are general rules, with exceptions existing?

I am just trying to nail down specific answers, in order to reveal the hypocrisy of your stance. Fair warning.

That scripture I gave proves that NO ONE was baptizing infants and little children.

This doesn't mean that exclusivity, as demonstrated by the above points. If repentance and baptism are required for eternal inheritance, then the above prove that a general practice does not extend exclusively.

Likewise, an absence of baptism does not apply an exclusive absence across all of Scripture.

Yes, I agree. No baptism was occurring here, that we read of. But, that does not mean that it doesn't occur elsewhere. That is akin to saying "well, infants weren't baptized when Christ was crucified, so infant baptism is unbiblical." It is an illogical stance and a fallacy.

Besides, is hindering an infant from being baptized not going against Christ's words in this passage? I would argue it is.

Hahahaha That scripture and many others prove that infant baptism is against the Truth.

you have yet to demonstrate how this passage is about baptism, since there is no clarification or mention of baptism in this passage. Please, provide it.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[God's Truth]

So, you agree then that there are general rules, with exceptions existing?

No way are God’s words merely exceptions.

I am just trying to nail down specific answers, in order to reveal the hypocrisy of your stance. Fair warning.

Hahahaha There is no way you could ever do that.

This doesn't mean that exclusivity, as demonstrated by the above points. If repentance and baptism are required for eternal inheritance, then the above prove that a general practice does not extend exclusively.

Little children were not water baptized as proof of the disciples sending them away. Even after Jesus says not to send them away---they still were NOT water baptized.

Yes, I agree. No baptism was occurring here, that we read of. But, that does not mean that it doesn't occur elsewhere. That is akin to saying "well, infants weren't baptized when Christ was crucified, so infant baptism is unbiblical." It is an illogical stance and a fallacy.

You are desperate and speaking nonsense.
The disciples were trying to send the children away and Jesus did not have them baptized.

Besides, is hindering an infant from being baptized not going against Christ's words in this passage? I would argue it is.

Are you blind to the scripture? Jesus did NOT say to baptize them. Jesus is the Word of God.

you have yet to demonstrate how this passage is about baptism, since there is no clarification or mention of baptism in this passage. Please, provide it.

The disciples tried to send the children away and Jesus did not say to baptize them.
We are told EXACTLY what to do to get baptized.
Infants cannot do repent of their sins.

 

[God's Truth]

So, you agree then that there are general rules, with exceptions existing?

I am just trying to nail down specific answers, in order to reveal the hypocrisy of your stance. Fair warning.

There is no way you can show hypocrisy in my beliefs.

We are told what to do to get water baptized.

We are also told that those who are given much, much more will be demanded; and, those who are given little, less will be demanded.

If a person is mentally disabled, they were not given what most people have been given.

That means they were given basically nothing.

So basically nothing would be demanded.

Luke 12:48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

John 9:41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.


The kingdom of heaven already belongs to little children such as the ones brought to him.


Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

Matthew 18:3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Any other questions? I can answer such as these easily.

If you can answer them easily then why did you just ignore what the Lord Jesus said in regard to how a person receives eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

I wonder what Rome says about His words there. I wonder what Rome says about the following words:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

The meaning of these verses cannot be misunderstood but for some reason you put more faith in what Rome teaches than you do in what the Scriptures reveal.

So answer these words since for you it is a simple thing to defend the teaching of Rome.

 

[jsanford108]

No way are God’s words merely exceptions.

That was not my inference.

Little children were not water baptized as proof of the disciples sending them away. Even after Jesus says not to send them away---they still were NOT water baptized.

You continue to push this idea, despite no evidence to support any point of Matthew 19 discussing or mentioning baptism.

You are desperate and speaking nonsense.
The disciples were trying to send the children away and Jesus did not have them baptized.

Why did the disciples send the children away?

Are you blind to the scripture? Jesus did NOT say to baptize them. Jesus is the Word of God.

Where in Matthew 19:14 does Jesus mention baptism?

Infants cannot do repent of their sins.

Neither can the mentally handicapped. Yet, Jesus says that unless we repent and are baptized, we cannot enter into eternal life. So, explain this.

[/QUOTE]

Hahahaha There is no way you could ever do that.....There is no way you can show hypocrisy in my beliefs.

So, you are infallible?

 

[jsanford108]

If you can answer them easily then why did you just ignore what the Lord Jesus said in regard to how a person receives eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

So, rather than addressing how you are ignoring the Words of Christ, you attempt to project such actions onto me? You realize that is a fallacy? (Both of these are rhetorical questions, unlike previous questions I have posed)

No need to answer, Jerry; You will just ignore facts and continue to project foolish preference onto me.

I wonder what Rome says about His words there. I wonder what Rome says about the following words:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

The meaning of these verses cannot be misunderstood but for some reason you put more faith in what Rome teaches than you do in what the Scriptures reveal.

The Catholic Church is the reason you even have a hint at what those words mean.



Jerry, I have sufficiently disproved your view and position. You are arguing against logic and evidence.

I am reminded of Proverbs 18:2. I have presented facts, evidence, and Scripture (Truth) to you, disproving your claims, yet you insist that you are correct. You deliberately ignore the Words of Christ. You deliberately ignore my questions, which expose the inherent illogical nature of your position. Every question I have posed, you have ignored.

You are preferring ignorance to truth.

 

[God's Truth]

That was not my inference.


You continue to push this idea, despite no evidence to support any point of Matthew 19 discussing or mentioning baptism.

Why did the disciples send the children away?


Where in Matthew 19:14 does Jesus mention baptism?

Neither can the mentally handicapped. Yet, Jesus says that unless we repent and are baptized, we cannot enter into eternal life. So, explain this.


So, you are infallible?

You didn't really read what I wrote did you.

Try not just skimming it and actually read it.

 

[jsanford108]

You didn't really read what I wrote did you.

Try not just skimming it and actually read it.

I read it. I took time to scour it, as evidenced by the formatting of my reply.

Would you mind answering the questions, in relation to how they were posed in my previous reply (post #114)?

 

[God's Truth]

I read it. I took time to scour it, as evidenced by the formatting of my reply.

Would you mind answering the questions, in relation to how they were posed in my previous reply (post #114)?

I don't believe you.

Redo the post you made to me.

 

[jsanford108]

I don't believe you.

Okay. I don't believe that you believe that I skimmed your response.

Redo the post you made to me.

No problem.

No way are God’s words merely exceptions.

That was not my inference.

Infants cannot do repent of their sins.

Here, I will show the inherent fallacy within your argument:
Neither can the mentally handicapped. Yet, Jesus says that unless we repent and are baptized, we cannot enter into eternal life. So, explain this. Either repentance is a general application to the normal population, with exceptions existing; or Jesus is contradicting Truth.

Little children were not water baptized as proof of the disciples sending them away. Even after Jesus says not to send them away---they still were NOT water baptized.

You continue to push this idea, despite no evidence to support any point of Matthew 19 discussing or mentioning baptism.

You are desperate and speaking nonsense.

This appears to be you projecting your shortfalls onto me.

The disciples were trying to send the children away and Jesus did not have them baptized.

Why did the disciples send the children away? If the people were bringing the children to be baptized, where is this information/context provided in Matthew 19?

If no such evidence is found within, then your claim regarding this passage is null.

No one has made the claim that the Apostles were baptizing children in Matthew 19. So, your refutation of such an idea is a fallacy, as you are arguing against a "straw-man."

Are you blind to the scripture? Jesus did NOT say to baptize them. Jesus is the Word of God.

Where in Matthew 19:14 does Jesus mention baptism?

No one is arguing (between you and I) that Jesus is not the Word Incarnate (John 1:1).

Hahahaha There is no way you could ever do that.....There is no way you can show hypocrisy in my beliefs.

So, you are infallible?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are preferring ignorance to truth.

You are preferring the teaching of Rome over the very words of the Lord Jesus and that is why you did not even try to prove that you actually believed the words of the Lord Jesus which I quoted. Here they are again so that everyone can see the verses which you failed to address:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

You believe the teaching of Rome and you don't believe what is said in those verses.