ECT Rethinking Eschatology

[Danoh]

His people already are a nation, Mt 21's vineyard parable. They are already in "one place" in Christ. The OT passages are useful, but must be informed by NT quotes of them, and they are not geographic.

That is simply not the case.

Throughout Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Early Acts, and Hebrews thru Revelation, the premise is Genesis through Malachi (even in light of the rearrangement of the Hebrew Canon some passage in said NT make obvious are a later rearrangement of the Hebrew canon).

Throughout Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Early Acts, and Hebrews thru Revelation, its readers, just as the immediate audience they depict, are ever reminded that "this is that which" this or that other OT Prophet wrote of, spoke, said, etc.

The actual history is built into the Hebrew theology. That is where this is to be studied out in. Not in "doing the history" in endless books by men who long ago parted from Isaiah 8's:

20. To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

The actual history is built into the Hebrew theology - its past is there, its present ever was, and its future ever is, and all three are ever consistently being referred back to within the above NT books.

"This is that.... Moses said this, Isaiah said that, the Psalmist had pointed to..." and on, and on, and on...

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

 

[Interplanner]

There is nothing in the NT about the land in Israel's future. Heb 9, Act 13's sermon, Acts 26's fulfilled hope, Gal 3, Rom 3-4 (the whole world, yes, but that's true of every believer), Rom 9-11, 2 Cor 3-5, Rom 15, Mt24B (because everything that mattered about the land was concluded in A).

2P2P is not in the Bible. It is in D'ism.

 

[Danoh]

There is nothing in the NT about the land in Israel's future. Heb 9, Act 13's sermon, Acts 26's fulfilled hope, Gal 3, Rom 3-4 (the whole world, yes, but that's true of every believer), Rom 9-11, 2 Cor 3-5, Rom 15, Mt24B (because everything that mattered about the land was concluded in A).

2P2P is not in the Bible. It is in D'ism.

Lol, deny it all you want... Throughout Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Early Acts, and Hebrews thru Revelation, its readers, just as the immediate audience they depict, are ever reminded that "this is that which" this or that other OT Prophet wrote of, spoke, said, etc.

 

[genuineoriginal]

do you do this with other parts of the bible?

what is limiting you?

What do you mean?
These are the only places in the Bible that are clearly marked as the writer altering the words of Jesus.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

His people already are a nation, Mt 21's vineyard parable. They are already in "one place" in Christ. The OT passages are useful, but must be informed by NT quotes of them, and they are not geographic.

So you are a mystic?

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Isa 31:1 Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!
Isa 31:2 Yet he also is wise, and will bring evil, and will not call back his words: but will arise against the house of the evildoers, and against the help of them that work iniquity.
Isa 31:3 Now the Egyptians are men, and not God; and their horses flesh, and not spirit. When the LORD shall stretch out his hand, both he that helpeth shall fall, and he that is holpen shall fall down, and they all shall fail together.
Isa 31:4 For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.
Isa 31:5 As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it. Isa 31:6 Turn ye unto him from whom the children of Israel have deeply revolted.
Isa 31:7 For in that day every man shall cast away his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which your own hands have made unto you for a sin.
Isa 31:8 Then shall the Assyrian fall with the sword, not of a mighty man; and the sword, not of a mean man, shall devour him: but he shall flee from the sword, and his young men shall be discomfited.
Isa 31:9 And he shall pass over to his strong hold for fear, and his princes shall be afraid of the ensign, saith the LORD, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem.

LA

 

[Interplanner]

So you are a mystic?

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Isa 31:1 Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!
Isa 31:2 Yet he also is wise, and will bring evil, and will not call back his words: but will arise against the house of the evildoers, and against the help of them that work iniquity.
Isa 31:3 Now the Egyptians are men, and not God; and their horses flesh, and not spirit. When the LORD shall stretch out his hand, both he that helpeth shall fall, and he that is holpen shall fall down, and they all shall fail together.
Isa 31:4 For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.
Isa 31:5 As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it. Isa 31:6 Turn ye unto him from whom the children of Israel have deeply revolted.
Isa 31:7 For in that day every man shall cast away his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which your own hands have made unto you for a sin.
Isa 31:8 Then shall the Assyrian fall with the sword, not of a mighty man; and the sword, not of a mean man, shall devour him: but he shall flee from the sword, and his young men shall be discomfited.
Isa 31:9 And he shall pass over to his strong hold for fear, and his princes shall be afraid of the ensign, saith the LORD, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem.

LA

LA, don't read the OT without consulting the NT's 2500 uses of it for clarity. You'll miss the whole point.

 

[Interplanner]

Lol, deny it all you want... Throughout Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Early Acts, and Hebrews thru Revelation, its readers, just as the immediate audience they depict, are ever reminded that "this is that which" this or that other OT Prophet wrote of, spoke, said, etc.

That doesn't mean 2P2P is there. You don't know what you are saying. yes, I already knew they were quoting those prophets. You're only 2 steps behind but maybe you'll catch up. You're assuming 2P2P is in the OT, when Paul says Judaism voided or replaced the actual promises, Gal 3. As usual, you dont' sound familliar with Gal 3 which is the most intensive treatment of the OT that I can think of.

 

[whitestone]

So this tribulation Jesus explained to his disciples(believers in Christ), Matthew 24:3 KJV ,,,and then he goes even further in his description by saying "for my names sake" Matthew 24:9 KJV ,again followers of Christ (Christians) are these fulfilled by Jews who do not believe in Jesus as Christ?

Israel was destroyed,but not because they believed in Christ,but because they did not,so they did not die for his names sake. They have been in tribulation for 1900 years,but not for "my names sake" as Jesus said,but instead because they refused Jesus. The holocaust was by most opinions a great tribulation,but did they die for my names sake, Matthew 24:9 KJV ? So is it reasonable to dig and look through history for a fulfillment we see as "a great tribulation" in a religion who doesn't believe in Jesus and therefore cannot die nor face tribulation "for his names sake",,,who was he speaking to,believers or non-believers?

 

[Livelystone]

Lol, deny it all you want... Throughout Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Early Acts, and Hebrews thru Revelation, its readers, just as the immediate audience they depict, are ever reminded that "this is that which" this or that other OT Prophet wrote of, spoke, said, etc.

That doesn't mean 2P2P is there. You don't know what you are saying. yes, I already knew they were quoting those prophets. You're only 2 steps behind but maybe you'll catch up. You're assuming 2P2P is in the OT, when Paul says Judaism voided or replaced the actual promises, Gal 3. As usual, you dont' sound familliar with Gal 3 which is the most intensive treatment of the OT that I can think of.

Everything in the NT is at least one fulfillment of an OT type and shadow if not "one more of other fulfillment's" of an OT prophecy that "at least" some of (if not all?) will happen again. Amen?........ T I think so.

What has me wondering why is why do so many Christians today think the NT teaching of being "caught up in the clouds to be with Jesus evermore" is anything different (or less) than being caught up in the clouds with the Lord in Zion that just so happens to be a "earthly location"?

Isaiah 4:5 And the Lord will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.

Revelation 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

PS: What does 2P2P mean?

 

[Livelystone]

So this tribulation Jesus explained to his disciples(believers in Christ), Matthew 24:3 KJV ,,,and then he goes even further in his description by saying "for my names sake" Matthew 24:9 KJV ,again followers of Christ (Christians) are these fulfilled by Jews who do not believe in Jesus as Christ?

Israel was destroyed,but not because they believed in Christ,but because they did not,so they did not die for his names sake. They have been in tribulation for 1900 years,but not for "my names sake" as Jesus said,but instead because they refused Jesus. The holocaust was by most opinions a great tribulation,but did they die for my names sake, Matthew 24:9 KJV ? So is it reasonable to dig and look through history for a fulfillment we see as "a great tribulation" in a religion who doesn't believe in Jesus and therefore cannot die nor face tribulation "for his names sake",,,who was he speaking to,believers or non-believers?

Even if for no other reason the Jews can and will face tribulation for their words of "let His blood be upon us and our children"

When Jesus said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" it was not because they did not know what they were doing to Whom they were doing it to.......... but because they did not know it was satan in their minds and thoughts causing them to do what they did!!!!!!!!!

 

[whitestone]

Even if for no other reason the Jews can and will face tribulation for their words of "let His blood be upon us and our children"

When Jesus said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" it was not because they did not know what they were doing to Whom they were doing it to.......... but because they did not know it was satan in their minds and thoughts causing them to do what they did!!!!!!!!!

Are you sure it was Satan in their minds, Paul I think thought they were blinded in part by God,,, Romans 11:25,7 KJV

 

[Livelystone]

Paul I think thought they were blinded in part by God,,, Romans 11:25,7 KJV

I can see where a problem will develop between us based on standard evangelical teachings.

The way I teach that is different from what is most commonly taught in evangelical circles (percentage wise) is I teach satan is just one more tool in God's toolbox for bringing persons into obedience to worshipping God in truth and in spirit.

The common teaching of satan dating back to Isa.12 & Eze 28 KJV is these passages are about a fallen "angel". However, I say they are about a man who fell from heaven (the garden of Eden was "heaven on earth") with that man being Adam, (as well as all of those born "in Adam") whom through Adam's fall from heaven is the reason all of the human race have/are born into sin and condemned unto death even before they were/are born.

Consequently, Jesus said Satan was evil from the beginning and was the father of all lies versus the common fable of him once being a good angel but fell from grace in a unfortunately successful attempt to usurp God in heaven as if this usurping went unnoticed by God until it became a full fledged rebellion before the throne of God

God created evil whose voice and intent is seen through Satan's words who was created by God and abides in the flesh of all of mankind ever since Adam through their birth into Adam's sin and death (as in Paul's words a "thorn in his flesh" that was the "messenger of satan" AKA the "law of sin" that lived WITHIN him) causing Paul through his shortcomings to be humble because through the "messenger of satan that was a thorn in his flesh" he still had to combat satan on a daily basis as does every Christian today

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy

 

[whitestone]

hmm maybe so,maybe it's good if we do not press one another on this issue because the scriptures clearly state that this is ordained before the world,so hence before Adam 1 Corinthians 2:8 KJV

So we should realize that some considered Jesus to cast out demons by Beelzebub, Luke 11:15 KJV , Matthew 12:24 KJV and then in Mark 3:28-30 KJV it is explained that this is unforgivable to say these were the works of Satan. It is clear that one of us say's it is by Satan the other God, one of us is clearly walking on thin ice so I will press you no further on the matter and give us both time to reflect on it,,,

 

[Wick Stick]

why do you think the abomination is a he?

Comparison of Matthew 24:15 to 2Thess 2:4:

[Mat 24:15 KJV] 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

[2Th 2:3-4 KJV] 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In both cases, something sits in the temple. 2Thess has more detail - it is a person there.

Jarrod

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Comparison of Matthew 24:15 to 2Thess 2:4:

[Mat 24:15 KJV] 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

[2Th 2:3-4 KJV] 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In both cases, something sits in the temple. 2Thess has more detail - it is a person there.

Jarrod

the man of sin can refer to a number of people who like the first son of perdition, betrayed Christ.

We have the NT temple as being the church.

For evidence of this read the last letter to the churches.

LA

 

[Livelystone]

hmm maybe so,maybe it's good if we do not press one another on this issue because the scriptures clearly state that this is ordained before the world,so hence before Adam 1 Corinthians 2:8 KJV

The plan never changed from God's decision that He would provide the sacrifice to take away the sins of the world

So we should realize that some considered Jesus to cast out demons by Beelzebub, Luke 11:15 KJV , Matthew 12:24 KJV and then in Mark 3:28-30 KJV it is explained that this is unforgivable to say these were the works of Satan. It is clear that one of us say's it is by Satan the other God, one of us is clearly walking on thin ice so I will press you no further on the matter and give us both time to reflect on it,,,

While on one hand this has always been said of those whom God has worked miracles through as I have heard this accusation as well coming from dark and perverted hearts, it has about as much truth as the man in the moon............. The truth is this idea is moot unless one think God has to ask His creation what He can please use them for

Evil is a principality and the simple fact is the dark side spirits are less than and under the authority seen, heard, and given access to through the name of Jesus. For that matter they recognized Jesus hoping he would not torment them before the appointed time Matthew 8:28,29 KJV

Same in the OT where God called Nebuchadnezzar His servant because all principalities have been created by and serve God as given witness in Colossians 1:16 KJV as well as other verses if you like more

Fair enough?

 

[Wick Stick]

the man of sin can refer to a number of people who like the first son of perdition, betrayed Christ.

We have the NT temple as being the church.

For evidence of this read the last letter to the churches.

LA

So your interpretation is that the first verse is ambiguous, and the other should be interpreted as a metaphor?

I think I'll stick with my literal interpretation - that both verses are specific and refer to the same event.

 

[steko]

Comparison of Matthew 24:15 to 2Thess 2:4:

[Mat 24:15 KJV] 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

[2Th 2:3-4 KJV] 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In both cases, something sits in the temple. 2Thess has more detail - it is a person there.

Jarrod

Yep! :thumb:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

So your interpretation is that the first verse is ambiguous, and the other should be interpreted as a metaphor?

I think I'll stick with my literal interpretation - that both verses are specific and refer to the same event.

Do you believe the temple of God is a rebuilt stone temple in Jerusalem?

LA

 

[Wick Stick]

Do you believe the temple of God is a rebuilt stone temple in Jerusalem?

LA

No. No, I don't.

I don't have any problem with metaphors in the Bible or apocalyptic language.

Usually, there should be something in the text that signals that one is coming, though. "Let the reader understand," or "here is wisdom," or "mystery hidden since the foundations of the world," or references to other passages which are known to be apocalyptic.

The passage in Matthew 24 qualifies on that account, actually. 2Thessalonians however, is straightforward, and explains Matthew 24 pretty clearly, if we will let it.

Jarrod