Response to Cross Reference's challenge

musterion

Well-known member
He invited it, so here it is.

Thesis: Believers cannot be both eternally safe as members of Christ's Body and, at the same time, be at risk of being cut from Him and cast into the Lake of Fire.

CrossReference,

1. Post every example where Paul warned members of the Body of Christ to endure in faithful obedience lest they be severed from Christ and cast into the Lake of Fire.

2. Post every example of Paul teaching the believer's eternal safety as an inseparable member of the Body of Christ.

3. Reconcile them all, so that no one can claim the Word of God contradicts itself.
 
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jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Paul said, "In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."
(2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 NKJV)

What is the big deal about dead bodies being destroyed by fire?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Paul said, "In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."
(2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 NKJV)

What is the big deal about dead bodies being destroyed by fire?

Obeying the Gospel is believing unto righteousness....the obedience of faith.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
He invited it, so here it is.

Thesis: Believers cannot be both eternally safe as members of Christ's Body and, at the same time, be at risk of being cut from Him and cast into the Lake of Fire.

1. Post every example where Paul warned members of the Body of Christ to endure in faithful obedience lest they be severed from Christ and cast into the Lake of Fire.

2. Post every example of Paul teaching the believer's eternal safety as an inseparable member of the Body of Christ.

3. Reconcile them all, so that no one can claim the Word of God contradicts itself.

Jesus own words trump all.

Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

LA
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Jesus own words trump all.

So, your claim is that the words the RISEN LORD revealed to Paul for us, do not trump what He spoke to the disciples....even though He clearly says He had many things to say, but they were not able to "bear them now". Are you still unable to bear them? :think:

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.​
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
So, your claim is that the words the RISEN LORD revealed to Paul for us, do not trump what He spoke to the disciples....even though He clearly says He had many things to say, but they were not able to "bear them now". Are you still unable to bear them? :think:

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.​

Paul was never a channel of Christ to any man.

Men are pointed to Christ that they might believe in Him directly.

You have made Paul into a Christ so that you do not go directly to Christ but instead become like Paul's flesh, which is Saul and not Christ.

LA
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Paul was never a channel of Christ to any man.

Men are pointed to Christ that they might believe in Him directly.

You have made Paul into a Christ so that you do not go directly to Christ but instead become like Paul's flesh, which is Saul and not Christ.

LA

1 Corinthians 4:15-16 KJV - Philippians 3:15 KJV - Philippians 3:16 KJV -


Philippians 3:17-18 KJV -
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Paul was never a channel of Christ to any man.

Men are pointed to Christ that they might believe in Him directly.

You have made Paul into a Christ so that you do not go directly to Christ but instead become like Paul's flesh, which is Saul and not Christ.

LA

Paul's sole purpose was for Christ, from Christ; the preaching of the cross.

1 Corinthians 2:2 KJV -
 

iouae

Well-known member
He invited it, so here it is.

Thesis: Believers cannot be both eternally safe as members of Christ's Body and, at the same time, be at risk of being cut from Him and cast into the Lake of Fire.

CrossReference,

1. Post every example where Paul warned members of the Body of Christ to endure in faithful obedience lest they be severed from Christ and cast into the Lake of Fire.

2. Post every example of Paul teaching the believer's eternal safety as an inseparable member of the Body of Christ.

3. Reconcile them all, so that no one can claim the Word of God contradicts itself.

Statements by Paul saying salvation is conditional...

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Statements by Paul saying salvation is unconditional...


Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The one thing that CAN separate us from the love of God, is OURSELVES. We can fall away by rejecting God. No God rejectors will be in His eternal kingdom.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Paul was never a channel of Christ to any man.

Men are pointed to Christ that they might believe in Him directly.

You have made Paul into a Christ so that you do not go directly to Christ but instead become like Paul's flesh, which is Saul and not Christ.

LA

Clearly you ARE UNABLE to understand. Every time you post this nonsense, you out yourself. You deny the Holy Spirit in your rush to claim believers "make Paul into Christ". Which happens to make you a false accuser of the brethren. :nono:


Paul is not a channel of Christ, and no one has said he was. The Risen Lord revealed to Paul how the HOLY SPIRIT baptizes us into Christ. Romans 6:3KJV

1 Corinthians 12:13KJV
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.​
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Statements by Paul saying salvation is conditional...

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

None of those are speaking of salvation. Salvation is a gift...not of works and not of ourselves lest any one should boast.




Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.[

Statements by Paul saying salvation is unconditional...


These are not written by Paul and aren't speaking of salvation.

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The one thing that CAN separate us from the love of God, is OURSELVES. We can fall away by rejecting God. No God rejectors will be in His eternal kingdom.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​


You forgot something important. Neither this nor that nor this nor that nor things present nor things to come.......Paul covered everything and still you decide to add "yourselves"? Why? So you could claim he didn't mean we only await the redemption of our body? He had every chance to say salvation, and he didn't. But you think you can add something as crucial as that? :doh:

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Statements by Paul saying salvation is conditional...

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Statements by Paul saying salvation is unconditional...


Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The one thing that CAN separate us from the love of God, is OURSELVES. We can fall away by rejecting God. No God rejectors will be in His eternal kingdom.

Nonsense, you can't comprehend and rightly divide, plus you missed about 2 dozen scriptures for sealed eternal unconditional salvation from Paul. Also Hebrews may not be Paul and 1 John is not Paul.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Paul said, "In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."
(2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 NKJV)

What is the big deal about dead bodies being destroyed by fire?

Obeying the Gospel is believing unto righteousness....the obedience of faith.

Are you disagreeing with Paul?

No, I'm explaining what he said to you. Looks to me like you need help. :)

I simply quoted what Paul said and then asked a question which you didn't answer.

I answered you when I told you what it means to obey the Gospel. It's what keeps one from that "vengeance" you seem to take so nonchalantly, and "obeying the Gospel" is believing unto righteousness. Believing unto righteousness is salvation and eternal life. Paul focuses on grace and life....and the free gift of salvation. You do know this thread is about what Paul preached, don't you?
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Clearly you ARE UNABLE to understand. Every time you post this nonsense, you out yourself. You deny the Holy Spirit in your rush to claim believers "make Paul into Christ". Which happens to make you a false accuser of the brethren. :nono:

People who claim Christ by following Paul are not Christs brethren, unless they know and follow Christ as Paul did.

Following Paul but not following Peter makes it clear that you do not mean you follow Christ.


Paul is not a channel of Christ, and no one has said he was. The Risen Lord revealed to Paul how the HOLY SPIRIT baptizes us into Christ. Romans 6:3KJV

The baptism into Christ began on the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was first poured out.

Paul explained how that was.

Unless you have the same experience that Paul had, then you do not follow Christ, you follow Paul, a second hand and useless faith.

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


1 Corinthians 12:13KJV
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.​

That is what I have been showing you, but it did not begin with Paul as scripture shows.--

Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Do you say Peter and Jude were lying?

LA
 

iouae

Well-known member
None of those are speaking of salvation. Salvation is a gift...not of works and not of ourselves lest any one should boast.

These are not written by Paul and aren't speaking of salvation.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

So your out clause is that Hebrews is not written by Paul?

Whoever it is written by, this sure sounds like backslidden believers have fallen away and cannot be renewed.

No renewed, no salvation. Please address that.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

So your out clause is that Hebrews is not written by Paul?

Whoever it is written by, this sure sounds like backslidden believers have fallen away and cannot be renewed.

No renewed, no salvation. Please address that.

So your claim is that members of the body of Christ can lose their free gift of eternal life if they backslide? Who then can be saved since backsliding is not such an uncommon thing. Who doesn't stumble and fall?

Are you not confident that He who began His good work in you will perform it? Where is your faith? In yourself or in the Lord Jesus Christ who sealed you with His Holy Spirit until the day of redemption?

The letter to the Hebrews was written to the Hebrews. They tasted of the heavenly gift...drank from the rock...ate of the manna from heaven. Have you ever considered that the letter is actually addressed to the Hebrews, and that it isn't even talking about salvation? Note this verse that speaks of "better things" and "things that accompany salvation....though we thus speak."

Heb. 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Rather than be so quick as to take some verses out of context and assume they say something they don't, notice how the writer refers to "laying again the foundation" of repentance from dead works, etc. "And this we will do, if God permit" implying that foundation is still being laid. Explaining again what those dead works did not accomplish. This is for the Hebrews...not the gentiles.

Hebrews 6:1-3
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.​
 
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