RELIGION: A Diversion Away From Christ and His Gospel

[jamie]

Not at Pentecost he didn't.

I wonder if the convict being crucified alongside of Jesus knew about the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

 

[LightSon]

The cross means death.

Someone who was crucified with Him, dies with Him, was buried with Him and raised with Him to new life no longer has a cross to take up, nor needs one any more than He does.

The cross is equated with death. Paul said in I Cor 15:31 "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily." Dying to self is not a one time deal. I have to continually reckon myself dead to sin - every day.

 

[musterion]

Dying to self is not a one time deal. I have to continually reckon myself dead to sin - every day.

Some put this in terms of Position and Condition.

Positionally, the believer is in Christ. That's a fact. The believer's dying to sin, then -- in God's accounting -- is a one time deal simply because it was a one time deal for the Son. So having died with Him, the believer's having been declared dead to sin also is a matter of settled fact. Nothing can change it.

However, as a matter of his condition in the here and now, the believer must reckon by faith upon the fact that God says He counts him as having died with Christ, died to sin, died to the Law. Position is to determine condition. The believer is to be occupied by faith in the fact that God says it's a fact that he died to sin (because the world, the flesh and the Devil will scream that he hasn't).

https://www.christianblog.com/blog/netchaplain/condition-vs-position-by-miles-j-stanford/

 

[musterion]

[FONT=&quot]Many passages of scripture make a clear distinction between position and condition, and are speaking to one or the other. Our position in Christ is the result of the completed work of Christ. Christ’s work is finished and cannot change, therefore our position in Christ cannot change. It is perfect and complete, and is ours from the moment we believed in Christ as Savior. There is no difference positionally between the weakest believer and the strongest saint, the new convert and the mature , the carnal Christian and the spiritual. Position is also referred to as our standing. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Our condition, on the other hand, is usually very different from our position. Our condition is where we are on the road to spiritual maturity, the degree to which our life reflects our position in Christ. It is our holiness of character, level of maturity, and degree of obedience at any given time. It is also referred to as our state.[/FONT]

 

[Robert Pate]

True, no argument.



Then please find one person in the OT who was saved upon hearing and believing the exact doctrinal content of 1Cor 15:3-4, which was Paul's gospel. If there is only one in the whole Bible, you MUST be able to find that content being preached and believed before Paul was ever saved.



What do you mean should have preached? Did he forget, was he negligent? With the Holy Spirit upon him? Really?



No MAD thinks what Peter preached at Pentecost was in ANY way incorrect for where, when, and to whom he preached it.



Yep, exactly according to prophecy. No argument there.

Now explain Rom16:25 and Eph 3:8-9.

There was no indepth Gospel before Paul's Gospel. In the Old Testament they were justified by believing in God's promise of a savior, Abraham believed God and was justified by faith, Romans 4:3. There was no Gospel preached until the day of Pentecost. Peter preached what had been revealed to him, which was not the whole Gospel, but was enough to cause 8000 Jews to repent and accept Christ as their savior. God approved of what Peter preached. You don't have to know the whole Gospel to be saved.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Hey musterion,

Well that is interesting. (Your last two posts). I have never heard it framed that way before.

I will have to think on that a bit.

Thanks for sharing that.

Peace.

 

[marhig]

Some put this in terms of Position and Condition.

Positionally, the believer is in Christ. That's a fact. The believer's dying to sin, then -- in God's accounting -- is a one time deal simply because it was a one time deal for the Son. So having died with Him, the believer's having been declared dead to sin also is a matter of settled fact. Nothing can change it.

However, as a matter of his condition in the here and now, the believer must reckon by faith upon the fact that God says He counts him as having died with Christ, died to sin, died to the Law. Position is to determine condition. The believer is to be occupied by faith in the fact that God says it's a fact that he died to sin (because the world, the flesh and the Devil will scream that he hasn't).

https://www.christianblog.com/blog/netchaplain/condition-vs-position-by-miles-j-stanford/

So you being dead to sin, does that mean that you believe that you can carry on sinning even wilfully and God doesn't see it?

Or that you have stopped wilfully sinning? I'm trying to understand what you mean.

Thanks

 

[marhig]

Hey Musterion,

Does Scripture say that somewhere?

Jesus explicitly says in Matthew 10:38: "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me."

You said it is hard to be unworthy of Christ. I don't think the Bible says that anywhere.

Jesus said we are unworthy of Him if we refuse to take up our cross and follow Him. Doesn't seem to be that hard to be unworthy of Him. Just refuse our cross. Just refuse the cost of discipleship to Him.

What Jesus is saying is that being His disciple is going to be demanding of us. Including self-denial, suffering, and maybe death. That is what the image of the cross portrays.

I'm still waiting to see where you find Scripture telling us that He meant that for only some people and not others? Or some of His followers and not others? I am not seeing where He says that that is what He means.



I don't think your logic makes sense here.

If Believers are those who have been accepted and made a member of Him,

But His words about the cross cannot apply to them. (You said it is either/or)

Then Jesus' words about carrying the cross would be directed specifically at non-believers only.

A couple of problems with that, I think.

First, everyone is a non-believer at some point. So His words would apply to everyone... since nobody emerges from the womb a believer.

Second, Chapter 10 of Matthew is directed right at the 12 Apostles...not unbelievers. Matthew 10:1 :"And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him,..." Jesus is speaking directly to the 12 for the entire chapter. He is not speaking to unbelievers.

Third, what are non-believers choices if what you say is true? They can either:

a. take up their cross and follow Him to be made worthy of Him. Like He says. OR

b. they can be accepted in the Beloved and be made a member of Him. Then His words about the cross do not apply to them.

Well. I'll choose b. I think everyone would choose b. It just sounds easier and like a much better deal. But that means that:

Jesus' words about taking up our crosses applies to NOBODY. Why is He wasting His time teaching people things that apply to NOBODY?

Fourth problem, your logic that it can't be both. Either one or the other is true for believers. Well, that is your logic. The bible nowhere says that either one or the other is true for believers.

And I think that that logic makes a mess of Jesus' own words.

He tells us pretty straightforwardly in that passage that to be worthy of Him is to embrace a cross.

To say that we can be worthy of Him....but "No thanks on the cross part, Jesus."....that contradicts what He himself says.

For now I am going to assume that your logic above is the reason you said the cross only applies to some people.

Or is there a Scripture reference that says that somewhere?

Peace.

That's a great post, and I choose A. (By the way, this is a long post, I didn't intend to write that much but it kept coming so I kept typing, it's not all directed at you personally, )

I think many would choose B, because that's what our flesh wants. But I believe God would want us to choose A, because A is the only way that we truly follow Jesus and our heart is being cleansed. Jesus said, except you become a little child you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven, God want our hearts cleansed and back to innocence again, and this happens by the spirit showing us our sins and us listening to our conscience which should be strong if we are walking in the spirit, and as the spirit shows us what's wrong, we should listen and deny ourselves. Satan will try and test us always to try and get is to disobey God, and we are to deny him, bare our cross and follow Jesus. Just as Jesus taught, if there was no cross to bare, then why did the apostles and deciples even Paul himself, suffer, deny themselves and bare it? Paul even teaches that we are to suffer also and deny sin, but that's just washed over here by some.

So, I choose A. Because that's the truth and the true teaching of Jesus for all of us.

B is a substitute, a don't worry Jesus has done it all, even if you sin you can't go wrong your still going to heaven.

Yeah I've heard that one before, just before Eve ate off the tree of knowledge of good and evil Satan said you shall not surely die, but she did, because she and Adam whom she tempted were cast out and couldn't eat off the tree of life which fed them keeping them alive in the spirit.

And the one way back to that spirit is through the flaming sword which turns every way, and what happens when we go through a flaming sword? We're put to death, the flaming sword is the word of God through the spirit coming with fire, and putting our flesh to death, fire burns rubbish, and this is the difference with having the spirit within as reading the Bible without having the spirit, the Bible is the word of God also, but the spirit working within us is a consuming fire and burns off our sins within and replaces them with the warmth and love of God. If we carry on wilfully sinning there's no way that we have the spirit, or the spirit won't be with us for long if we carry on living in our flesh. We need to be put to death to eat off the tree of life and bare fruits ourselves.

We are not to be partakers of good and evil, it's one or the other.

Only Satan teaches that it's alright to sin and your going to heaven regardless, because that's him all over, he's fooling many, he's got a great substitute gospel, made so that people can basically live their own lives and deny the teachings that Jesus taught because he's done it all for us, so you just live by your flesh and sin no problem. This is a false gospel and it's not the truth.

And what does he say? Don't worry if you sin, you shall not surely die but go to heaven regardless. He was a liar from the beginning and he continues in his lies because he wants to sift us as wheat and he will do that if we obey him and sin. But thank God he had mercy on us and we are blessed through Christ to receive the spirit, because without Jesus we'd have no hope and without the spirit we'd be dead to God, still walking in those sins, not knowing right from wrong, if Gods laws are in our heart and in our mind being taught to us of the spirit then we should listen to him and obey God and deny ourselves and be cleansed and put to death in our flesh by the spirit of life!

James 1

Blessed*is*the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:*But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

And further down the chapter

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction,*and*to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 4

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.*Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse*your*hands,ye*sinners; and purify*your*hearts,*ye double minded.

2 Peter 2

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.*For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known*it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is*turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

1 John 2

Love not the world, neither the thingsthat are*in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that*is*in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.*And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

As here's Paul

1 Corinthians 3


Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and*that*the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple*ye are.

Galatians 5

This*I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.*

Romans 8

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.*

And our lord Jesus Christ

John 8

Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

John 5

Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Matthew 24

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.*And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.*But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Jesus said there is one gospel to be preached in all the world for a witness to the nation's, not two gospels, one. And all Gods people including Paul preached the same same gospel and it's all based on love!

And those who endure to the end, the same shall be saved!

 

[marhig]

Well, if you can show Peter at Pentecost or Stephen declaring the murder of Christ as GOOD news for anyone's sin, okay.

Can you show me where it says in the Bible that the murder of Christ is good news in any way? Remember murder is a sin before God so how can murder be good news?

The gospel is the good news, the whole gospel.

 

[jamie]

There was no indepth Gospel before Paul's Gospel.

Nor was one needed, the Jews knew the scriptures from their youth, Gentiles not so much.

 

[musterion]

There was no indepth Gospel before Paul's Gospel.

But how is that possible?

You said there has always been only ONE gospel to be believed, equating Paul's, which has some explicit doctrinal content--namely the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for the forgiveness and justification of any who believe, Jew or Gentile alike, without works. That much I know you agree with.

But as pointed out before, if you are correct that there has always and only been ONE good news to be believed, then you MUST be able to find the SAME content Paul preached in the Bible before he ever preached it.

You have not thought this through clearly, Robert, but keep thinking on it, I believe it will come to you.

 

[musterion]

So you being dead to sin, does that mean that you believe that you can carry on sinning even wilfully and God doesn't see it?

Do you own a Bible?

Does it have Paul's letters?

Have you ever read them?

Your question is answered by him in Romans 6. Why don't you know that?

 

[musterion]

Robert,

What Peter preached:

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, WHICH GOD HATH SPOKEN by the mouth of all his holy prophets SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN.

What Paul preached:

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, WHICH WAS KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN...

It CAN NOT get any plainer than that, Robert. You'll either see it or you won't. Seeing it, you'll either accept and believe it, or you won't. But it completely nukes the human tradition that there has always been "only one gospel." If you keep insisting on it, you're denying the plain words of Scripture.

 

[Robert Pate]

But how is that possible?

You said there has always been only ONE gospel to be believed, equating Paul's, which has some explicit doctrinal content--namely the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for the forgiveness and justification of any who believe, Jew or Gentile alike, without works. That much I know you agree with.

But as pointed out before, if you are correct that there has always and only been ONE good news to be believed, then you MUST be able to find the SAME content Paul preached in the Bible before he ever preached it.

You have not thought this through clearly, Robert, but keep thinking on it, I believe it will come to you.

Like I said before. Before there was a Gospel preached by either Peter or Paul, people were saved and justified by faith in God's promise of a savior. Like the scripture says, Abraham believed God. He believed in God's promise of a savior and was justified by faith.

I have thought this through completely. There is only one Gospel. Peter preached what he knew or what had been revealed to him. It was not another Gospel, It was basically the same Gospel that Paul preached, only difference is that Paul's Gospel was more indepth and included justification by faith. Peter didn't really understand justification by faith and had to be taught it by Paul, Galatians 2:11-21.

You appear to be in denial of what took place on the day of Pentecost.

 

[musterion]

Like I said before. Before there was a Gospel preached by either Peter or Paul, people were saved and justified by faith in God's promise of a savior. Like the scripture says, Abraham believed God. He believed in God's promise of a savior and was justified by faith.

It remains a fact that before it was preached by Paul, no one was saved by believing Christ would or had died for their sins and would be or was raised for their justification by faith alone without works. Were that the case, Peter would never have tried to stop Him going to Jerusalem to die. Were that the case, Peter would have preached it at Pentecost, but he didn't. Also, 1 Cor 2:7-8.

Instead, all were made right with God by believing whatever good news He said TO THEM AT THAT TIME. Context is king here, Robert. Abraham, Noah, the list goes on and on...each was made right by some good news that God said specifically to him. There are many such 'good news' in the Bible. And there ONLY ONE saving good news today. But there is absolutely not just one saving good news from cover to cover.

I have thought this through completely. There is only one Gospel.

I have shown you from my last post, quoting Paul, that this simply is not the case.

Peter preached what he knew or what had been revealed to him.

Yes.

It was not another Gospel, It was basically the same Gospel that Paul preached, only difference is that Paul's Gospel was more indepth and included justification by faith.

No. Peter preached Christ at Pentecost but said nothing about His having died for their sins and rising for their justification by faith without works, much less for dog Gentiles as well. Those who believed at Pentecost trusted Him as their long-awaited Messiah, not as Savior for the sins of the world.

Why did he not preach what Paul preached? Because it was still a secret hid in God. Peter didn't know it yet. He didn't know it when he was sent to Cornelius. He STILL didn't know it when the Jerusalem elders called him on the carpet for going (Acts 11:3, 17).

NONE of these Spirit-filled Jews behaved as if they knew what you are insisting they MUST have known, if there has always been only ONE saving gospel.

Meaning Peter's according-to-prophecy gospel for Israel (which is all he had to bring to Cornelius) CANNOT POSSIBLY be Paul's previously hidden gospel of grace, under which Israel has no primacy and Christ is not known as Messiah according to the prophesied line of flesh (2 Cor 5:16; Romans 1:3), but as Lord and Savior of all without distinction.

Peter didn't really understand justification by faith and had to be taught it by Paul, Galatians 2:11-21.

That makes no sense if you're going to insist they had the same good news. You can't have this both ways, Robert.

You appear to be in denial of what took place on the day of Pentecost.

No, I deny your trying to claim it for yourself completely apart from its context.

Now please respond to post 136.

 

[musterion]

I'm holding onto the hope of Eph 1:17-18 for you, Robert.

 

[musterion]

The ONE article of faith at the outset was that Jesus is the Messiah. Whoever acknowledged Him in this character was baptized.

[exactly as Peter preached at Pentecost]

George P. Fisher, History of the Christian Church, 1887

 

[Robert Pate]

Robert,

What Peter preached:

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, WHICH GOD HATH SPOKEN by the mouth of all his holy prophets SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN.

What Paul preached:

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, WHICH WAS KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN...

It CAN NOT get any plainer than that, Robert. You'll either see it or you won't. Seeing it, you'll either accept and believe it, or you won't. But it completely nukes the human tradition that there has always been "only one gospel." If you keep insisting on it, you're denying the plain words of Scripture.

You want to believe that what Peter preached was not the Gospel that was ordained by God, inspite of the Holy Spirit and all of the signs and miracles that followed.

Peter said, "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Acts 2:21.

Well 8,000 called upon the name of the Lord and were saved, Acts 2:41, Acts 4:4.

I can't believe that you find fault with that.

People don't have to know the whole Gospel to be saved. All that I heard was... "But thy blood was shed for me" I was convicted of my need for Christ and became a Christian.

You want to believe that salvation is complicated. Its not. I used to be the pastor of a childrens church. I taught them about Christ on a felt board. Salvation is by simple child like faith in Christ, its not complicated.

Peter's Gospel was simple, maybe not complete. But you cannot deny that it was effective. It gave birth to the New Testament church.

 

[musterion]

You want to believe that what Peter preached was not the Gospel that was ordained by God, inspite of the Holy Spirit and all of the signs and miracles that followed.

Okay, Robert, have it your way. Now I know you're not above deliberately misrepresenting what I wrote in order to avoid uncomfortable points. I never realized you could be dishonest like this. So long.

 

[jamie]

What is the significance of how many gospels there are? The Holy Spirit provides each person with what they need to hear to believe.

:deadhorse: